In coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost

[SteveO]

3 minutes ago, california boy said:

Why are you labeling this as drag queens??  It looks more like cirque du solett.  What I do see is parents in the audience sitting right next to their kids enjoying the performance.  Are we now on a rampage to condemn all circus acts now too because they are now a sure sign of thee end of the world?

😂
 

Good grief

 

Look, it is ultimately up to parents.  They’re freaks, they’re selfish, and they’re bad parents, but I accept that and there’s nothing that can be done about it.  This isn’t even in my top 20 of most important things to worry about.

Its remarkable though, you guys sit here and tell me how this isn’t a big deal, and yet you won’t even acknowledge an obvious display of lewd behavior in front of children without caveats.

Edited October 8, 2023 by SteveO

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, california boy said:

don't think I can do a blanket judgement on all drag queen costumes that are being worn in these library readings.  I think I would have to be there as a parent and make that judgement for what is appropriate for my children.  Could it be a problem?  For me, yes.  Am I willing to condemn every single drag queen reading without seeing what they are wearing?  No.

That would be my approach.  There are plenty of nondrag costumes and even nonsexual costumes I would not have let my kids see.

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, SteveO said:

😂
 

Good grief

The only possible drag element in these pictures might be the shoes.  Everything else reads very masculine to me.  And while the first picture makes me wonder why in a library, but not an issue, it is only the second picture that appears to be too much masculinity on display that I would have a problem with.  I admit to being uncomfortable with most speedos on men, not what I grew up with…this does not make them wrong.  I would have a problem with a guy showing up in a Speedo at a library.  Since this takes it a bit further than a Speedo, yeah…I think I would have taken my kids out even if they were clueless, though I would have not told them why as I would rather they develop their own issues and not borrow mine.  I tried to teach respect for one’s own body and for others without getting too specific because I think it’s more behaviour and how one feels than clothing that is the issue.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Calm

[SteveO]

Just now, Calm said:

The only possible drag element in these pictures might be the shoes.  Everything else reads very masculine.  And while the first picture makes me wonder why in a library, it is only the second picture that appears to too much masculinity on display that I would have a problem with (I admit to being uncomfortable with most speedos on men, not what I grew up).

It’s BDSM Calm.  You can call it whatever you want.  And classify it however you want.  I’m not really concerned with its categorization.  But it’s being done in front of children.

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, SteveO said:

an obvious display of lewd behavior in front of children without caveats.

Just saying it isn’t a drag performance.  I don’t know if cal boy looked that closely at the second picture, he might have assumed it was the same costume as it’s not a great picture for more than one reason.

[CV75]

5 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

As to your title, this has been true of many dispensations, and peoples, as well as our own. The goal of goals, is to survive Spiritually, as we all die. 

"Last days" as used in the New Testament epistles (and even Matthew 24) refers to "the most recent days," "the times in which we live," and "the time(s) between the first and second coming of Jesus," and so referred to the times in which the audience lived. The Book of Mormon uses the term on a narrower and future-oriented scale, focusing on the events and signs preparatory to and including the ultimate fulfillment of the promises to Israel and the Gentiles prior to the Second Coming. This is one way, to me, it contains a fulness of the gospel.

From my observation, the hot popular topics du jour may change, but the spirit of contention in their spurring and public discourse is getting worse.

Edited October 9, 2023 by CV75

[california boy]

44 minutes ago, Calm said:

Just saying it isn’t a drag performance.  I don’t know if cal boy looked that closely at the second picture, he might have assumed it was the same costume as it’s not a great picture for more than one reason.

Like I said, I am not going to condemn every single drag queen by the costumes that appear in the media.  I agree that some costumes may not be appropriate for some kids.  But that is a decision every parent needs to make based on each unique situation.  I can think of a heck of a lot worse things parents allow their children to do that I consider inappropriate.  

What i am pissed off about is this end of the world mentality because of the LGBTQ community that was brought up once again on this thread ONCE AGAIN.  It is demeaning, marginalizing and builds hatred towards the LGBTQ that is not deserved.  This kind of discourse does nothing but bring contention between already strained relationships between the Church and the LGBTQ community.

Edited October 9, 2023 by california boy

[SteveO]

4 minutes ago, california boy said:

Like I said, I am not going to condemn every single drag queen by the costumes that appear in the media.  I agree that some costumes may not be appropriate for some kids.  But that is a decision every parent needs to make based on each unique situation.  I can think of a heck of a lot worse things parents allow their children to do that I consider inappropriate.  

What i am pissed off about is this end of the world mentality because of the LGBTQ community that was brought up once again on this thread ONCE AGAIN.  It is demeaning, marginalizing and builds hatred towards the LGBTQ that is not deserved.  This kind of discourse does nothing but bring contention between already strained relationships between the Church and the LGBTQ community.

Nobody thinks it’s the end of the world.  It’s a right wing grift that you feed into by not being able to call out an obvious “yuck”.  

[california boy]

On 10/5/2023 at 7:21 AM, nuclearfuels said:

 “In coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost. My beloved brothers and sisters, I plead with you to increase your spiritual capacity to receive revelation.”

- President Nelson

I like this. It holds promise and helps us focus. 

I'm curious about what type of current/future events might make the constant influence of the Holy Ghost necessary to survive spiritually.

- Another plandemic scamdemic pandemic?

- natural disasters?

- War?

- Recession/Depression?

- Something else?

Clearly this post is talking about how things are going to get worse in the latter days.

And this is how LoudmouthMormon answered concerning the latter days.

 

On 10/5/2023 at 8:52 AM, LoudmouthMormon said:

 

The growing numbers of people unable or unwilling to do things like define "woman", or say "drag shows don't belong in middle school" out loud.  And the continuing polarization of our culture around such increasingly divisive issues with consequences that grow increasingly severe.  One of the consequences being that nobody knows what truth is anymore.  So you go to church and try to get some spiritual confirmation that truth is actually something that exists, as opposed to a method of controlling historically marginalized peoples by the colonizer patriarchy.   

(You laugh, but I hang around with people who think and speak in these terms.)

So yeah, he made a direct connection to how evil the latter days is becoming because of the LGBTQ community.  It is a repeated accusation that has appeared in various degrees on a pretty regular basis on this board by members of the Church.  And while you are more than willing to condemn the LGBTQ drag shows, you SteveO don't seem to bother to comment on these kinds of inflammatory connections. 

 

[LoudmouthMormon]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

But you are making a leap from that to a drag queen reading a book in the library.  

Lay out your case.  

Sorry, can you interact with my sources and their claims please?  No, I'm not talking about a dude in a dress reading a book.  Do you find anything in those sources or the claims with which you agree?

I think before I continue, I have to ask: Can you please describe, in your own words, what adults should not do to/with/in front of minor children?   Or maybe, if you don't want to do that, here's a list of things.  Perhaps you can indicate the ones you think shouldn't happen around children.

Sexually explicit clothing which emphasizes genitals
Sexually explicit dancing/twerking
Inviting minors to stick dollar bills into thongs or g-strings
Inviting minors to dress up in drag and learn how to do any of the above
Giving instruction on how to perform various sex acts, with or without visual aids or illustrations or props
Giving an underage person a lap dance
Exposing ones genitals/public nudity

 

I'm trying to find middle ground here.   No, there's nothing wrong with a dude in a dress reading a book.  Both of us agree.   I'm hoping you will find all those things I mentioned objectionable.  If you do, both of us would agree.  

If you agree all those things are objectionable, perhaps you could do one more thing.  How many anecdotes of these things happening in schools would you need to see, before you might be willing to accept that there may be a problem?

[rodheadlee]

On 10/5/2023 at 12:18 PM, CA Steve said:

This comes across to me as more 'we are in the last days" rhetoric that is just a repeat of what has been said for 2000 years. 

What will be different in "the coming days" that we have not seen in the past?

Everything is accelerated. World wide information is available instantly. 

[The Nehor]

On 10/8/2023 at 7:35 PM, SteveO said:

Nobody thinks it’s the end of the world.  It’s a right wing grift that you feed into by not being able to call out an obvious “yuck”.  

If we would just appease the face-eating leopards by saying that some people’s faces deserve to be eaten they will calm down and not eat any more faces.

There is a good faith discussion to be had about what is inappropriate but when the people trying to open the discussion are doing so to froth up rage to target marginalized populations there is no point in pretending to engage in good faith. Best to just call them hateful demagogues and move on. They aren’t serious and many of the people who started the hysteria patronized drag shows and some of them have done drag-style crossdressing themselves. It is just red meat for the mindless.

On 10/8/2023 at 6:38 PM, SteveO said:

It’s BDSM Calm.

BDSM-adjacent maybe if you squint hard enough. That harness for suspension isn’t very good. The best ones let you do flips. If you want to hang a hip harness is needed too. I am confused at what the performer is even going to do.

It is more like acrobatic entertainment and the costuming is BDSM lite. If it were scantily clad women doing aerial silk stuff acrobatics I doubt anyone would be screaming because that codes as straight. Just like the same people who are screaming about sexualizing children are taking their sons to Hooters.

It is all just stupid.

[LoudmouthMormon]

[dup]

Edited October 17, 2023 by LoudmouthMormon

[LoudmouthMormon]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

There is a good faith discussion to be had about what is inappropriate

Can we have it?  You and me, right now?  I'd sure like to have one.  

If so, here are my opening statements and sources with an attempt at asking a couple questions, and here is a 2nd request for folks to take a look at the statements and sources, and another round of questions. 

 

[The Nehor]

44 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Can we have it?  You and me, right now?  I'd sure like to have one.  

If so, here are my opening statements and sources with an attempt at asking a couple questions, and here is a 2nd request for folks to take a look at the statements and sources, and another round of questions. 

Counterpoint: People are having less sex, everyone from teenagers to people in their 40s and 50s.

[LoudmouthMormon]

Ok, so, if I can try to reflect back your point, to see if I understand it fully, I'd do it like this:

If we're going to opine about the tragedies and evils that befall humanity, it's important to do so with a sense of perspective.  Not all tragedies and evils are equal, partially because different T&Es impact different numbers of people.  Therefore, since everyone and their dog* are having less sex, the scope of this particular topic doesn't really qualify as a "world is so crazy that we all need the holy ghost to be our constant companion"-sized issue.

How'd I do?  If I did ok, could you return the favor?

 

 

 

 

* dogs aren't having less sex as far as I can tell.

Edited October 17, 2023 by LoudmouthMormon

[The Nehor]

I wouldn’t be sure of that. We neuter a lot of dogs.

[The Nehor]

I would agree that there are people trying to expose children to sexual imagery or concepts at too young an age. I would argue that the existence of the LGBT community and and the people within it is not sexual imagery. A man wearing a dress is not sexual imagery.

99.9% of the sexual imagery children are exposed to is heterosexual and the whole campaign to vilify the lgbt community is blatant misdirection and has more to with adults being uncomfortable than protecting children. Children don’t care about a man dressed in a colorful dress except thinking it is different and kind of neat. Many adults are very afraid but saying they are afraid or threatened would be showing weakness so they do this whole song and dance and reframe it as ‘protecting the children’. It is bad faith all the way down.

[rodheadlee]

It's not always about sex. I was so angry after the Hamas attack on Israel I didn't know what to do. I'm going to need the Holy Spirit to calm my thoughts.

[california boy]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I would agree that there are people trying to expose children to sexual imagery or concepts at too young an age. I would argue that the existence of the LGBT community and and the people within it is not sexual imagery. A man wearing a dress is not sexual imagery.

99.9% of the sexual imagery children are exposed to is heterosexual and the whole campaign to vilify the lgbt community is blatant misdirection and has more to with adults being uncomfortable than protecting children. Children don’t care about a man dressed in a colorful dress except thinking it is different and kind of neat. Many adults are very afraid but saying they are afraid or threatened would be showing weakness so they do this whole song and dance and reframe it as ‘protecting the children’. It is bad faith all the way down.

And don't forget about the parents that put their young girls in beauty pageants putting them in makeup and suggestive clothing.  Or letting them watch inappropriate stuff on TV and at the movies.  There is lots more sexualized clothing going on at the beach than ever takes place in a drag queen reading stories in the library.  Why aren't these all "end of days, the world is collapsing" kinds of events?  Oh wait, you can't vilify the LGBT community over those issues.  

[california boy]

11 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Can we have it?  You and me, right now?  I'd sure like to have one.  

If so, here are my opening statements and sources with an attempt at asking a couple questions, and here is a 2nd request for folks to take a look at the statements and sources, and another round of questions. 

 

I did put forth a discussion about what you posted.  This is what I replied

 

 

Quote

 

The thing is, it is the parents that decide what is safe and ok for their kids.  Many parents believe that a drag queen reading a story is NOT something that is hyper sexual.  Have you even ever been to a drag queen reading a book in the library?  Tell me exactly what is sexual about it?   You are pulling studies about children being exposed to sexual explicit events early in their childhood as being traumatic and I would agree.  But you are making a leap from that to a drag queen reading a book in the library.  What I flnd flawed about your freaking out about this is you think this is explicit sex.  It is not.  It is a costume.  

YOU are the one that turned this into some melodramatic event, claiming that the world was going to hell in a hand-basket because some parents are ok with their kids listening to a story read by a drag queen in a library.  It is a library for heavens sakes with the parents right there next to their own kids.  What happens there that makes you so hyper about THIS being the end of the world event?  I am not the one that brought this up, you did,,,Again.  You seem to want to vilify anyone in the LGBTQ community because you think we shouldn't exist in your world.  

Lay out your case.  WHAT is so sexual about a drag queen reading a book to children in the library with their parents right next to them.  Then tell me how THIS is more destructive and evil to the fall of civilization then bombs being dropped on the children and children being taken into slavery that has been happening since the beginning of time and still continues today.

And yes, I am sick and tired of Mormons dumping on everything the LGBTQ community does and blaming them for the world falling apart.  

 

Now tell me why you think you can dump all of the sexualizing of children that you listed on drag queens reading books to children with their parents sitting right next to them? 

 

These are the things you listed:

Quote

Sexually explicit clothing which emphasizes genitals
Sexually explicit dancing/twerking
Inviting minors to stick dollar bills into thongs or g-strings
Inviting minors to dress up in drag and learn how to do any of the above
Giving instruction on how to perform various sex acts, with or without visual aids or illustrations or props
Giving an underage person a lap dance
Exposing ones genitals/public nudity

How many of those situations are created by the LGBT community that caused you to single out the LGBT community specifically?  And why would you assume that the LGBT community is supporting any of this kind of sexualizing of children?  This is what I meant when I said

Quote

 

And yes, I am sick and tired of Mormons dumping on everything the LGBTQ community does and blaming them for the world falling apart.  

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by california boy

[The Nehor]

31 minutes ago, california boy said:

And don't forget about the parents that put their young girls in beauty pageants putting them in makeup and suggestive clothing.  Or letting them watch inappropriate stuff on TV and at the movies.  There is lots more sexualized clothing going on at the beach than ever takes place in a drag queen reading stories in the library.  Why aren't these all "end of days, the world is collapsing" kinds of events?  Oh wait, you can't vilify the LGBT community over those issues.  

Also remember that Hooter’s does kids birthday parties. There are also a lot more Hooter’s restaurants than there are drag show children’s readings. Yet the propagandists who are worried about ‘sexualizing children’ focus on a much smaller and much less sexual problem because………..

A. Transphobia
B. They are covering from their own grooming activities
C. They hope Hooter’s will make kids straight
D. All of the above

[Duncan]

One thing we assume is that God is interested in giving us "The the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost" Some people say that God doesn't or hasn't or can't-because of unworthiness, receive the Holy Ghost. Michael Mclean said 

as wonderful as he is some people aren't mature or whatever enough to keep going for 9 years with feeling nothing, if God promises answers but then never  sends them or you don't know that God has in mind that he won't answer you for 9 or 19 years years a message like this from Pres. Nelson can be daunting. 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

One thing we assume is that God is interested in giving us "The the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost" Some people say that God doesn't or hasn't or can't-because of unworthiness, receive the Holy Ghost. Michael Mclean said 

as wonderful as he is some people aren't mature or whatever enough to keep going for 9 years with feeling nothing, if God promises answers but then never  sends them or you don't know that God has in mind that he won't answer you for 9 or 19 years years a message like this from Pres. Nelson can be daunting. 

I think when someone endures willing and faithful to their covenants for this long, they must have "the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost" at some level and to some degree. 

[teddyaware]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

One thing we assume is that God is interested in giving us "The the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost" Some people say that God doesn't or hasn't or can't-because of unworthiness, receive the Holy Ghost. Michael Mclean said 

as wonderful as he is some people aren't mature or whatever enough to keep going for 9 years with feeling nothing, if God promises answers but then never  sends them or you don't know that God has in mind that he won't answer you for 9 or 19 years years a message like this from Pres. Nelson can be daunting. 

Michael McLean and I used to be friendly, and I must say the first time I viewed this video I was stunned and perplexed because the prolonged faith crisis he describes seemed so out of sync with the spiritually strong young man I once knew. In addition to our shared musical interests (we were fellow singers, songwriters and musicians who attended the same ward), I was also able to become quite familiar with Michael’s powerful testimony, his profound spiritual sensitivity and optimistic eternal perspective as well.

As I processed Michael’s description of his nine-year faith crisis (in an attempt to fathom how the wise, spiritually enlightened young man I once knew could devolve into a state of such profound spiritual disconnectedness and nagging doubt), an answer began to emerge. Throughout Michael’s recounting of his faith crisis experience, he appears to have harbored a “why me” attitude, a state of mind that wonders “how could a good and loving God allow such a terrible disaster to befall me when I’ve tried so hard to be good?!”

Meanwhile, by contrast, I’ve always had a “why not me” attitude, realizing that if bad things happened to me while trying to be good person that it was only to be expected. This is especially true in light of the fact that the Lord’s prophets, and most notably the Lord himself, were good people who had to face a continuous train of calamities, trials and tribulations. This sobering realization caused me to realize that it would be foolish to think that my life’s experiences should be any different than what the Lord’s servants had to endure and faithfully overcome.

And true to form my life has been literally filled with disasters and extremely challenging difficulties, but because I was mentally, psychologically, and spiritually prepared  for my life’s disasters, and in spite of deep trauma, I never once doubted the Lord, nor did I ever ask him  “why me?” All one has to do is examine the holocaust and Mao’s slaughter of innocent millions to awaken to the fact that this world is filled with terrible injustices that will not be righteously resolved until the last judgement.

Edited October 18, 2023 by teddyaware