theplains

LDS leaders were supposedly chosen and prepared before coming to earth. From a seminary manual: "He also saw others the Lord reserved to be born in the latter days to build temples and perform ordinances for the dead". Choice spirits reserved to come forth in the fulness of times Read Doctrine and Covenants 138:53–56, looking for the work Heavenly Father prepared noble spirits to accomplish in the latter days. "Our Heavenly Father has reserved many of His most noble spirits—perhaps, I might say, His finest team—for this final phase. Those noble spirits—those finest players, those heroes—are you! (Russell M. Nelson and Wendy W. Nelson, "Hope of Israel" [worldwide youth devotional, June 3, 2018], ChurchofJesusChrist.org) (Doctrine and Covenants Seminary Teacher Manual, 2025).

Early Latter-day Saints generally understood the Book of Mormon to describe events occurring across much of the Americas. Under this older "hemispheric" model, the narrow neck of land was often identified with the Isthmus of Panama, and Nephite and Lamanite civilizations were thought to have occupied large regions of North and South America. In that framework, the final battle at Cumorah simply took place much farther north. It's worth noting that the phrase "many waters, rivers, and fountains" comes from Ether 15:8–11 and related Jaredite passages, particularly the broader geographical descriptions found throughout Ether 2–10. These passages describe the Jaredite homeland as a region rich in water. The direct textual connection between Ramah and Cumorah is found here: Ether 15:11 states that the Jaredites "did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord." Mormon 6:2 then refers to the land of Cumorah as the location of the Nephites' final gathering. Taken together, the text itself identifies Ramah (the Jaredite name) and Cumorah (the Nephite name) as the same hill. The "many waters, rivers, and fountains" description is not specifically attached to Cumorah in the text but comes from the broader Jaredite geographical setting described in Ether. Those who identify the New York Hill Cumorah with the Book of Mormon hill generally reason as follows: 1. Ether describes a Jaredite land characterized by abundant water. 2. Ramah/Cumorah is located within that Jaredite setting. 3. Western New York contains numerous lakes, rivers, wetlands, and the Finger Lakes region. For that reason, many early LDS leaders concluded that the hill mentioned in the Book of Mormon was the same hill located in New York. Whether one accepts that conclusion or not, that is the basic logic behind the traditional identification.

Rather than throw previous leaders under the bus and accuse them of teaching falsely, they resort to "we don't know".

I was more focused not on when he (Heavenly Father) is taught to have become our God but rather that he supposedly progressed and became a God (with his wife or wives) before they eventually started having spirit children as heavenly parents. That would mean Heavenly Mother became a God before Jesus was born to her.

You never accounted for the "activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing".

You never really answered the question posted by @GoCeltics

New York State fits the descriptions.

That Facebook video is not really coming from an LDS leader and doesn't actually discount what previous LDS leaders have taught. In the Book of Mormon narrative, Cumorah is part of a larger geographic system that includes the land northward, the land southward, east and west seas, and the "narrow neck of land" connecting them. Early believers were taught and believed the Book of Mormon described events spanning much of the Americas. In that older “hemispheric” view the narrow neck of land was often associated with Isthmus of Panama. Nephite and Lamanite civilizations supposedly spread across large parts of the continents, and the final battle at Hill Cumorah was simply much farther north. The “many waters, rivers, and fountains” language is actually from Ether 15:8–11 contextually nearby passages and earlier Ether geography descriptions (especially Ether 2–10), where the Jaredite land is described broadly as a water-rich environment. Where the real Cumorah connection comes from The actual textual link between “Ramah” and “Cumorah” is this: Ether 15:11 - "And it came to pass that they did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord". Then in the Nephite record: Mormon 6:2 - "And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah". So the text itself creates this equivalence: Jaredite name: Ramah, Nephite name: Cumorah, same hill, according to the record. That's the actual internal connection. The "many waters, rivers, and fountains" idea comes from broader Jaredite geography descriptions in Ether. So when people connect it to the New York Hill Cumorah, they are doing this: Ether describes a land with abundant water systems. Ramah/Cumorah is in that Jaredite land. Western New York has many lakes, rivers, and wetlands (Finger Lakes region). That is why LDS leaders taught they are the same hill and that hill is in New York. Then add to this the supposed revelation in Doctrine and Covenants 128. "Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed". In addition to all the other sources from LDS leaders, I found another. “Letter VII.” Oliver Cowdery to W. W. Phelps. Latter Day Saints’ Messenger and Advocate (Kirtland, Ohio) 1, no. 10 (July 1835)

@GoCeltics From the 1997 Gospel Principles: All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like him—a god. He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39) Supposedly Heavenly Father is only the God of gods in the sense of only his own spirit children who are exalted. He is not the God of his own Father God.

Several LDS Church teachings use that chapter (usually only verses 1-4 or 1-7) to teach a great apostasy occurred after the death of the apostles but she don't account for when the "Wicked" was revealed, whose coming what evidenced by "all power and signs and lying wonders". I believe this great apostasy points to the period just before the Second Coming, not a period that started two millennia ago. "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness". God did not send a strong delusion yet to allow Satan to deceive the people with "all power and signs and lying wonders". The "he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way" I believe is some future event when the Holy Spirit's restraining influence is taken from the earth. Only then is this evil person revealed.

The full text, from the 1938 version of Teachings of Joseph Smith has this: Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God! I say that is a strange God anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization. "Father, I pray not for the world, but I pray for them which thou hast given me." "Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one as we are." All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster. The sectarian idea is that it is a crammed-into-one God. I see those "He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster" and a "curious organization" ideas attributable to Joseph Smith.

I am a former Catholic but have never used that term to describe infant baptism. For adults, I think a priest or deacon pours water over the person’s head (or sometimes immerses them) three times while saying: "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

Once a man (Heavenly Father) who supposedly became a God.

I would reword it slightly. "The official position of the church now is that the location of the hills Cumorah and Ramah is unknown. But it was taught as truth in the past by our prominent leaders".

What eye-witness descriptions of the hill and its environ by Mormon and Moroni make President Romney's statement (and all the other statements by LDS leaders) false and misleading?