theplains

The following was taught in Gospel Truth, volume 2, page 128. George Q. Cannon served as a counselor in the First Presidency to four successive LDS Church presidents Is the punishment for this "gospel truth" the same for those who commit this great sin or have less than three children when they are capable of more? And is it really seemingly one step below or on par with murder on the condemnation scale? BIRTH CONTROL-A GREAT SIN. From what we have heard we are led to believe that the spirit is abroad in the earth, and is making some headway among the Latter-day saints, to look with reproach upon women with large families, and the desire seems to be growing among some of the younger population, to desire only one or two, and not to exceed three, children. We have heard that many of the diabolical practices of the world have been introduced... among some who profess to be Latter-day Saints, to prevent the bearing of children. No sin, unless it be that of murder, will meet with a greater condemnation from God than this evil of tampering with the fountains of life. Such sins will destroy the strength of any people that practices them, and the nation whose people yield to such vices is in great danger of destruction. No Saint can practice or encourage such corruption without incurring the displeasure of an offended God. (July 15, 1895, JI 30:451) I refer to the practice of preventing the birth of children. I want to lift my voice in solemn warning against this, and I say to you that the woman who practices such devilish arts, or the man who consents to them, will be cursed of God. Such persons will be cursed in their bodies, cursed in their minds, cursed in their property, cursed in their offspring. God will wipe them out from the midst of this people and nation. Remember it. Mothers, teach this to your daughters, for I tell you it is true. I need not pronounce any curse, whatever my authority may be, but I say to you that women who take this course, and men who consent to it, will be cursed of God Almighty, and it will rest upon them until their generation shall be blotted out, and their name shall be lost from the midst of the Saints of Goa unless, as I have said, there is deep, thorough and heartfelt repentance. (October 7, 1894, DW 49:739)

That appears to be your definition of "exaltation" - meaning a body is exalted. You should become more familiar with how the LDS Church defines exaltation. Now it appears you do believe God has not always been a God but he became a God. I'd say He (the LDS God) is not a God before "achieving Godhood". He is not a God before "progressing to Godhood". By the way, the idea of "achieving" Godhood and then "progressing to" Godhood should be reversed. "Progressing towards" is one of the steps in the journey before reaching the "achieved" state. You are only thinking about Heavenly Father's sphere of influence or realm. You should watch the movie "Thor" to understand what I mean by realms. In the case of LDS theology, there are many of them – each with its own supreme leader, or God in your case. I think you believe Heavenly Father is a higher God than Jesus, right. Do you also believe Heavenly Father is a higher God than his God (Jesus' Grandfather)? Do you also believe Heavenly Father is the most High God of all other Gods which supposedly exist before he becomes a God and heavenly father of our Earth? Notice that I specifically use upper case "g" but you keep referring to lower case "g". It seems they mean different things to you. Based on what she wrote, and I hope that I didn't misunderstand her, she believes that some woman who lived on some other world became a God and then became the heavenly mother of the humans on our Earth. I think she also believes the same about Heavenly Father of our Earth; that they were married on that world, became Gods, and then had spirit children and populated our Earth with these children. They had a beginning as Gods and as heavenly parents. They are not classified as "Gods" until they become Gods. They are not classified as "heavenly parents" until they have spirit children (i.e. eternal increase). I think the LDS Church formulizes the doctrine of Heavenly Mother through "The Family: Proclamation to the World" but doesn't speculate on how she became a God and who atoned for her sins while she was living on her world.

In that discourse, he said "I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see". Do you believe that he was only teaching the people to know and believe God became OUR God instead of Him becoming A God? If yes, provide the exact inference. Under whose laws did Heavenly Father advance before and after he supposedly became a man? Moses and Satan were referred to as gods in scripture but they were not Deities. As for the people you mentioned above, I don't believe it was on par with all the quotes from the following: 1] The thread "The caricature: Mormons wishing to "get their own planet?" 2] Doctrine and Covenants 76 ("…And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion") 3] Gospel Principles (page 275 - "Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation". Page 277 - "5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20)" 4] Orson Pratt, The Seer. "All these Gods are equal in power, in glory, in dominion, and in the possession of all things; each possesses a fulness of truth, of knowledge, of wisdom, of light, of intelligence ; each governs himself in all things by his own attributes, and is filled with love, goodness, mercy, and justice towards all. The fulness of all these attributes is what constitutes God. "God is Light." "God is Love." "God is Truth." The Gods are one in the qualities and attributes". "Each person is called God, not because of his substance, neither because of the shape and size of the substance, but because of the qualities which dwell in the substance" . You seem to believe the men you quoted above were speaking the truth, but you didn't mention if you believed all the LDS leaders that I referenced were speaking the truth or if you also consider them as "doctrine" like you applied above. Have a look at the thread and let me know which statements you believe are false. It's odd how you use the word "doctrine" and apply it to what the early Church Fathers taught but you don't apply the same thing to what LDS leaders taught. We have LDS teaching guides like "Doctrines of Salvation" and "Doctrines of the Gospel – Student Manual" but you want readers to believe nothing in them is not a false doctrine, right? The book "Gospel Truths", by former First Presidency Member George Q. Cannon" is really not "gospel truths", right? I suggest you quote some of what your own LDS leaders really teach and really mean if you disagree with how I am interpreting them. I don't agree that everything early Church Fathers taught square with what has been revealed in scripture. "Becoming like God" in the LDS sense is not how Christians view "Adam and Eve becoming like God" in the Garden of Eden. Being created in the image of God does not make us gods. The Church Fathers did not teach Heavenly Father was once a married man who became a God and then populated Earth with spirit children created on the world he lives on. They also didn't teach Jesus and the Holy Ghost are spirit brothers of Lucifer. When LDS leaders have repeatedly taught God is an exalted man, they do not mean that God was always a God and then this God became a man, and then this God/man was re-exalted back to the position he had before. It's even taught as LDS doctrine that Jesus became a God in his pre-mortal life before he comes to Earth in mortal flesh. Does the LDS Heavenly Mother become a God before the LDS Jesus is even born to her as her first spirit child? Obviously. Was he born a spirit-God to her? No. He was ranked as a God when he reached some pinnacle of intelligence in his pre-existence, as taught in "Doctrines of the Gospel – Student Manual). In some fashion, an LDS man and woman attained their fulness of joy when they became Gods (they achieved godhood) and then supposedly became Heavenly Parents of Earth. No. But I see a dividing line between the Creator and creation. We will partake of God's blessings in his kingdom but this won't make us Gods. If I understand LDS theology correctly, everyone in the Celestial kingdom (with its three sections) will have celestial glory, whose glory is that of the sun (D&C 76:70). And the glory of the sun is one (76:96). But all the inhabitants of the celestial kingdom are not Gods. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life". In LDS theology, you can put the inhabitants of the two lower divisions of the celestial kingdom and all from the terrestrial/telestial kingdoms into the "should perish" class. On the flip side, God's love is not demonstrated to those who don't partake of everything that he enjoys.

Ah. I see that you take the "man of sin" to represent many individuals, not just one in particular. Regarding Revelation 19, I see the beast, false prophet as two separate individuals. "And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur". Unless you don't view these two as two separate individuals? Then in Revelation 20, we are introduced to a third. "Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years". Unless you don't view Satan as an individual in this verse? I view the "man of sin", the individual, as either the beast or false prophet based on the mighty signs and wonders used to deceive the people just prior to the Second Coming (2 Thessalonians 2:9, Revelation 13:13-14, and Revelation 19:20).

I don't focus on the secular or sci-fi way that some have interpreted it. Let's use the words of the LDS leaders themselves and what they meant, and not be distracted by semantics.

Is it in the present or future tense in Doctrine and Covenants 76:52-59? "That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true. They are they who are the church of the Firstborn. They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory; And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son. Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ's, and Christ is God's". Women too? LDS women do not receive the Melchizedek priesthood.

From FairLDS Mormons, along with many other Christian denominations, believe in deification or theosis, based on the teaching that we can become heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17). Little is known, though much might be speculated, about the specific details of our potential under this doctrine. Reducing it to ruling a planet caricatures a profound and complex belief. The use of the word “planet” makes Mormons seem more like sci-fi enthusiasts than devout Christians. This isn’t just a quibble about semantics. Claims that Mormons hope for “their own planets” almost always aim to disrespect and marginalize, not to understand or clarify. The reality is that we seek eternal life, which we consider to be a life like that of our Father in Heaven. We consider our immediate task on Earth to learn to understand and obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ, rather than speculate on what life might be like if we achieve exaltation. Specifics about the creation of worlds and the ability to govern them upon achieving eternal life are not clarified in Latter-day Saint scripture. Attempts to portray these concepts as simply wanting to “get our own planet” are a mockery of Latter-day Saint beliefs. It doesn't sound like a caricature when it comes from LDS sources however. Here are the noticeable ones. Maybe it should be reworded as "Mormons wishing to create their own worlds" so as to eliminate the need for that classification. 1] Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 17, discourse 22. The sermon's title is: "Nothing Strange or New to Live and Die—Must Die in Order to Be Quickened—The World of Mankind Ignorant of Immortality—The Righteous Should Live to Enjoy the Light of the Spirit—All People Are the Children of God—They Learn By Contrast—Worlds to Be Organized and Peopled in Future Existence." The relevant passage reads: "As for their labor and pursuits in eternity I have not time to talk upon that subject; but we shall have plenty to do. We shall not be idle. We shall go on from one step to another, reaching forth into the eternities until we become like the Gods, and shall be able to frame for ourselves, by the behest and command of the Almighty. All those who are counted worthy to be exalted and to become Gods, even the sons of God, will go forth and have earths and worlds like those who framed this and millions on millions of others." 2] "After men have got their exaltations and their crowns—have become Gods, even the sons of God—are made Kings of kings and Lords of lords, they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. Power is then given to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles. How can they do it? Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this greater matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children" (Journal of Discourses, 6:275) Sermon: Necessity of the Servants of God Being Pure in Heart and in Deed—Dependence on the Holy Spirit—Celestial Exaltations, Etc. 3] "Again it follows, that in the use of this power, by consent and authority of the head, any one of these Gods may create, organize, people, govern, control, exalt, glorify and enjoy worlds on worlds, and the inhabitants thereof; or, in other words, each of them can find room in the infinitude of space, and unoccupied chaotic elements in the boundless storehouse of eternal riches, with which to erect for himself thrones, principalities, and powers, over which to reign in still increasing might, majesty and dominion, for ever and ever" (Parley P. Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology) 4] "Then will they become gods, even the sons of God; then will they become eternal fathers, eternal mothers, eternal sons and eternal daughters; being eternal in their organization, they go from glory to glory, from power to power; they will never cease to increase and to multiply worlds without end. When they receive their crowns, their dominions, they then will be prepared to frame earth’s like unto ours and to people them in the same manner as we have been brought forth by our parents, by our Father and God". "When we shall possess the power and knowledge to cause heavenly planets to take their position, giving them their laws and boundaries which they must obey, and which they cannot pass, then we may begin to feel that we possess a little wisdom and power". "The great and grand secret of salvation, which we should continually seek to understand through our faithfulness, is the continuation of the lives. Those of the Latterday Saints who will continue to follow after the revelations and commandments of God to do them, who are found to be obedient in all things, continually advancing little by little towards perfection and the knowledge of God, they, when they enter the spirit world and receive their bodies, will be able to advance faster in the things pertaining to the knowledge of the Gods, and will continue onward and upward until they become Gods, even the sons of God" (Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, 18:259 and 260). 5] "That great blessing of celestial glory could never have come to us without a period of time in mortality, and so we came here in this mortal world. We are in school, the mortal school, to gain the experiences, the training, the joys, and the sufferings that we partake of, that we might be educated in all these things and be prepared, if we are faithful and true to the commandments of the Lord, to become sons and daughters of God, joint heirs with Jesus Christ; and in His presence to go on to a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever, and perhaps through our faithfulness to have the opportunity of building worlds and peopling them" (Adam’s Role in Bringing Us Mortality, President Joseph Fielding Smith, from an October 1967 General Conference address). 6] "The training you get in the universities, while excellent, is limited. It is but a very tiny percentage of the total knowledge. We encourage knowledge and its proper use, but we know there will be a thousand years to study about things, and compared to the years spent in universities, that great learning period is relatively limitless. When we’re ready to create our own worlds and give leadership thereto, we will have great knowledge. Since knowledge is power, we will have power. Since knowledge can make us creative, we can be creators. Since knowledge can lead to judgment and wisdom, we can be just and worthy and wise. But we cannot wait for marriage until we have accumulated the knowledge we finally will need and want to have in order to create. We need the power of the priesthood to effect the creation, and it will have to be there; you hold the priesthood and can use it as you accumulate the secular knowledge". ... "I feel certain that all the knowledge that is available will not be enough to give the power to create worlds without the priesthood and the power thereof. When we shall have learned all about medicine, mineralogy, zoology, forestry, biology, and all the other “-ologies” and all about the heavens and the earth in all of its moods, then, if we also know theology and know it well and abide by its precepts, perhaps then we can exercise our accumulated power to create an earth for our exalted family" (Spencer W. Kimball, "Marriage Is Honorable," BYU address on September 30, 1973). 7] Chapter 4: Teaching Children: from Four to Eleven Years,” A Parent’s Guide, page 29, second column. "Each one of you has it within the realm of his possibility to develop a kingdom over which you will preside as its king and god. You will need to develop yourself and grow in ability and power and worthiness, to govern such a world with all of its people. You are sent to this earth not merely to have a good time or to satisfy urges or passions or desires. You are sent to this earth, not to ride merry-go-rounds, airplanes, automobiles, and have what the world calls 'fun. "You are sent to this world with a very serious purpose. You are sent to school, for that matter, to begin as a human infant and grow to unbelievable proportions in wisdom, judgment, knowledge, and power" (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed, Edward L. Kimball [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982], p. 31). 8] "Peter and John had little secular learning, being termed ignorant. But they knew the vital things of life, that God lives and that the crucified, resurrected Lord is the Son of God. They knew the path to eternal life. This they learned in a few decades of their mortal life. Their righteous lives opened the door to godhood for them and creation of worlds with eternal increase. For this they would probably need, eventually, a total knowledge of the sciences. But whereas Peter and John had only decades to learn and do the spiritual, they have already had nineteen centuries in which to learn the secular or the geology of the earth, the zoology and physiology and psychology of the creatures of the earth. Mortality is the time to learn first of God and the gospel and to perform the ordinances. After our feet are set firmly on the path to eternal life we can amass more knowledge of the secular things" (President Kimball Speaks Out, Deseret Book, 1981). It was later quoted verbatim by L. Tom Perry in his October 1997 General Conference address, "Receive Truth," giving it additional visibility in official LDS teaching. “Peter and John had little secular learning, being termed ignorant. But they knew the vital things of life, that God lives and that the crucified, resurrected Lord is the Son of God. They knew the path to eternal life. This they learned in a few decades of their mortal life. Their righteous lives opened the door to godhood for them and creation of worlds with eternal increase. For this they would probably need, eventually, a total knowledge of the sciences. But whereas Peter and John had only decades to learn and do the spiritual, they have already had nineteen centuries in which to learn the secular or the geology of the earth, the zoology and physiology and psychology of the creatures of the earth. Mortality is the time to learn first of God and the gospel and to perform the ordinances. After our feet are set firmly on the path to eternal life we can amass more knowledge of the secular things” (President Kimball Speaks Out [1981], 91). 9] "Desirable as is secular knowledge, one is not truly educated unless he has the spiritual with the secular. The secular knowledge is to be desired; the spiritual knowledge is an absolute necessity. We shall need all of the accumulated secular knowledge in order to create worlds and to furnish them, but only through the "mysteries of God" and these hidden treasures of knowledge may we arrive at the place and condition where we may use that knowledge in creation and exaltation" (Spencer W. Kimball, October 1968 Conference Report, also in Church News). 10] "To live in the highest part of the celestial kingdom is called exaltation or eternal life. To be able to live in this part of the celestial kingdom, people must have been married in the temple and must have kept the sacred promises they made in the temple. They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done. People who are not married in the temple may live in other parts of the celestial kingdom, but they will not be exalted" (Gospel Fundamentals, Chapter 36). 11] We remember the numerous scriptures which, concentrated in a single line, were said by a former prophet, Lorenzo Snow: “As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become.” This is a power available to us as we reach perfection and receive the experience and power to create, to organize, to control native elements". In the resurrection, men who have been faithful and diligent in all things in the flesh, [who] have kept their first and second estate, and [are] worthy to be crowned Gods, even the sons of God, will be ordained to organize matter. How much matter do you suppose there is between here and some of the fixed stars which we can see? Enough to frame many, very many millions of such earths as this, yet it is now so diffused, clear and pure, that we look through it and behold the stars" (Our Great Potential, President Spencer W. Kimball, April 1977 General Conference).

Back on March 2, I provided 10+ LDS teachings, beyond the King Follett Discourse, which show Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother were not always Gods and they were not always heavenly parents. None of these LDS teachings are supported by scripture. Joseph Smith's view that you mentioned above does not square with all the provided teachings. LDS leaders seem to have thrown several things at the wall to see which would stick. You never did explain how you believe Heavenly Mother became a God and under what circumstances. The Family: A Proclamation to the World says, "All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny". But I don't equate this to you being a deity in embryo right now. Apparently you become a deity in the future, in the first resurrection. It seems you can also become a god in the second resurrection too ("Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection" ... Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-20).

Ok, so you believe Heavenly Father became a God before he became the God and Heavenly Father of us. Is that correct? I can't remember the thread where you mentioned deification. Others besides Irenaeus had similar ideas about deification, most notably Clement of Alexandria. He wrote: "The Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God." (Exhortation to the Greeks 1) Another famous passage: "He who obeys the Lord... becomes a god while still moving about in the flesh" (Stromata VII.10). I believe they erred in their interpretation of scripture. Could there be a greater temptation than wanting to be a god? I would say no. LDS theology takes it further; teaching members that they may become Gods who create and populate their own worlds. Another twist is that Latter-day Saints are taught they will be made "equal in power, and in might, and in dominion" as Heavenly Father himself (Doctrine and Covenants 76:92-95). Orson Pratt added a few more qualities - "All these Gods are equal in power, in glory, in dominion, and in the possession of all things; each possesses a fulness of truth, of knowledge, of wisdom, of light, of intelligence ; each governs himself in all things by his own attributes, and is filled with love, goodness, mercy, and justice towards all. The fulness of all these attributes is what constitutes God. "God is Light." "God is Love." "God is Truth." The Gods are one in the qualities and attributes". "Each person is called God, not because of his substance, neither because of the shape and size of the substance, but because of the qualities which dwell in the substance" (The Seer). If this is what constitutes God, then this further re-enforces the LDS teaching that Heavenly Father was not God from all eternity to eternity.

You never explained with individual fulfilled verse 4 ("Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" and verse 9 ("Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders"). You're assuming that Jesus and Paul only spoke of localized events in Jerusalem.

"When persons have proved themselves faithful in all things required by the Lord, it is their privilege to receive covenants and obligations that will enable them to be heirs of God as members of the Church of the Firstborn. They are "sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise" and are those "into whose hands the Father has given all things" (D&C 76:51-55). They will be priests and priestesses, kings and queens, receiving the Father's glory, having the fulness of knowledge, wisdom, power, and dominion (D&C 76:56-62; cf. 107:19). (The Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Church of the Firstborn).

Do you believe Heavenly Father did not get married while he was only a man on some planet that his Father has created for him and his future bride? Following what I have seen in LDS teachings, Heavenly Mother becomes a God before Jesus becomes a God, when he reaches some pinnacle of intelligence and is ranked as a God.

Based on their writings, the apostles and elders didn't refer to themselves Aaronic or Melchizedek priests. Even with the advent of the Roman Catholic Church, this did not occur. It's also not present in the Book of Mormon, which supposedly had a church in this New Testament period.

Why did you leave the LDS faith?

I don't think an apology was ever issued for this October 1960 General Conference sermon by Spencer W. Kimball either: "The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos; five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation. At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl — sixteen — sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents — on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather. There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delight-someness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated".