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theplains

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About theplains

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    Separates Water & Dry Land
  • Birthday 08/01/1972

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  1. The church used the word 'god' about Heavenly Father in the 1997 Gospel Principles. "All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like him-a god." From the church's web site: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/behold-your-little-ones-nursery-manual/lesson-1-i-am-a-child-of-god?lang=eng - Each of us is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents. We lived with them before we were born. Our Heavenly Father knows us personally and loves us. (See Psalm 82:6; Acts 17:28–29; Hebrews 12:9.) - Open the Bible to Psalm 82:6 and read, "All of you are children of [God]." "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." You mentioned that the people of Revelation 3:21 are considered gods because they are sitting on God's throne. The Introductory notes to Doctrine and Covenants says "Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods." Also mentioned a little more in verses 19-21. I see some individuals and groups of people who are called gods - Moses, Satan, and those in Psalm 82. These don't have thrones. Then we have the Gospel Principles to Heavenly Father as a god (who has a throne). Should we maybe start using the word 'Gods' to differentiate those who are on thrones (and are really Deities) as opposed to 'gods' (who are not on thrones and who are not deities)? Do all the Gods (polytheism) have their own throne or do they all sit on the throne of one Ultimate God (who never had to become a God)? Maybe becoming like God does not mean becoming a God ... just a thought.
  2. I believe it is a position of exaltation for glorified human beings. But I don't believe these human beings are Deities. I'm not diverting discussion away from God's throne, but I was mentioning that Satan was trying to exalt his throne above the stars of God. Does the fact that Satan has a throne that he was trying to exalt mean he wanted to change from an angel to become a God or already was a God? In the case of glorified human beings, being seated on thrones is representative of our rulership (that we will have in some capacity) and our exalted position. I believe it is referring to glorified men and women (who are not Deities). What do you mean by 'god'? Are you meaning like Moses and Satan were gods (as the scripture I provided earlier said) or do you mean a god (like the 1997 Gospel Principles refers to "like Heavenly Father – a god"?). This will help me understand you better. There are several mentions of 'throne and thrones' in the Book of Revelation, but I do not see any of them where someone other than God is worshipped. Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev_4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, Rev_5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. Rev_7:9-11 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Rev_19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. Rev_20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them ... and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But I don't see an indication of the people on their thrones being worshipped. In the scripture, it is said that Adam and Eve became as gods (Genesis 3:5) as one of us (Genesis 3:22) but they were not deities. In the 1981 Book of Mormon, Alma 12:31 says they became as Gods. The newer Book of Mormons says they became as gods. But in either case, did Adam and Eve become deities? In Doctrine and Covenants 132:16, the humans who don't get exalted become ministering angels to those who become gods - not sure why they don't use the word Gods instead. But it doesn't say these angels will worship those gods. There are references to sitting with God in God's throne and individuals sitting on their own thrones, but in neither case do I believe these refer to human beings who are Deities, but rather exalted human beings. That's why I made mention of the word 'exalt' or 'exalted'; which does not mean one person becoming a Deity. I know LDS theology teaches Jesus and Heavenly Father became Gods, but my church does not believe this. When the scriptures speak of Satan being the god of this world, is Satan a deity? When the scriptures speak of Moses being made a god to Aaron, is Moses a deity? The word Trinity is not in the Bible but looking at several verses, one can see the meaning. Do you see the word 'exalt' or 'exalted' in the Book of Mormon meaning a human can become a God? I prefer to stay with what the scripture says instead of what Origen mentioned. I believe God (the Creator) is of a different nature than his creations. I don't believe the quote of Origen has the support of scripture because he equates gods with deities, but then does not explain how Moses and Satan are both gods (non-deities). I don't believe Jesus is defending his Deity in this statement but rather turning the tables on his hearers and pronouncing judgment on them. I make the same comment about Origen as I do for Ireneaus. See earlier. They made claims of humans being divine but then don't explain if Moses and Satan (called gods) are deities? As I mentioned before, we can learn from the letters sent to the church. But what is said about one church cannot be applied to *everyone*. For instance, I do not hold to the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. Moses and Satan are referred to as gods. I keep using them in my example but I was wondering if you believe they are deities? From what I know of LDS theology, resurrection seems to be an unmerited gift/blessing and eternal life (exaltation) is an earned reward. Is that accurate? Yes, we have been talking about this passage several times. Romans says that only those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God, heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ. In LDS theology, 'joint-heirs' is a reference to exalted beings (gods) - so the non-gods are not the children of God. Only the sheep are the joint-heirs. The others are the children of the devil. Do you believe the LDS church definition of joint-heirs; that they are exalted beings? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-18?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/new-testament-student-manual/romans/chapter-36-romans-4-8?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-3?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/new-testament-study-guide-for-home-study-seminary-students/introduction-to-romans/unit-21-day-1-romans-8-11?lang=eng
  3. The poem needs to be reworded since it says the child already has his or her own kingdom. It's unclear why you change the word to Kingdom as if you want to change the meaning - the poem say kingdom. Should Father's house also be changed to Father's House? When I was a little child. And dwelling in my kingdom, in my Father's house
  4. I looked at the link you provided but there is no indication that a resurrected human on the throne of God means an exaltation to godhood. I agree with the several different meanings that a throne could represent (given the correct context). My preferences are a position and the status of an individual. Isaiah says "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north." From this we know that Satan has a throne, but he is not transcendent and he is not a deity. Matthew 5:34 gives a more expansive view of God's throne - "Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 says the 12 disciples would sit upon thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. There is no such thing for the Nephite disciples. Revelation makes another reference to many in the Millenium who will sit on thrones but they are not deities. In the Bible, Moses and Satan are referred to as gods. Do you believe Moses and Satan are deities? Are you able to find one example of 'exalt' or 'exalted' in the Book of Mormon or Bible where becoming a deity is the intended meaning? I know from studying LDS theology, that Heavenly Father was a man who became a god, but I don't believe this. As Revelation 1:6 mentions, we are made kings and priests, but this is not an indication of us becoming deities. I explained more about thrones earlier. I don't mind using the word "gods" in application to certain people (see above) as long as the proper context is applied. Even the 1997 Gospel Principles refers to Heavenly Father as being a god. https://ia800509.us.archive.org/27/items/GospelPrinciples1997/Gospel Principles 1997.pdf "All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like him-a god. He has said, "Behold, this is my work and my glory-to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39) (page 9). The current version of Gospel Principles removed the reference the Heavenly Father as 'a god.' Israelite judges were regarded as gods but God pronounced judgment on them (Psalm 82:6). I meant to say that Lucifer was trying to exalt his own throne above the stars of God, but he was not meaning that he would become a deity. Yes. The sheep inherit eternal life; the goats do not. According to what I have read in LDS theology, eternal life is exaltation - living life as a god (but I guess this does not apply to a god in embryo - which a former LDS President teaches humans currently are). The letters to the 7 churches are specifically for them. The words to the church of Philadephia are applicable only to them. That's why I limited my comments to only that church. For example, the word to the church of Ephesus was "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love." This is not applicable to the Philadelphia church. Then we see the word to the church of Pergamos - "But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication." This is not applicable to the Philadelphia church. We should listen to all the messages given to all the 7 churches but each received their own commendation and their own rebuke. "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." They are worshipping *before* them; they are not worshipping them. Who is worthy of worship? Only God. Does God approve of worship of a man or a false god? No. See Exodus 20:1-5. Do I worship an exalted man (a man who became the Heavenly Father of planet Earth)? No. I worship God who has always been God. I'll bold some key words and phrases below. Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. ... but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Do you see any people other than Christ's sheep in those verses?
  5. I believe Rev 3:21 and Rev 2:26 refer to exalted human beings, but not Gods. The scriptures use the term 'exalt' and 'exalted' many times, but never means the process of becoming a God. The Book of Mormon only has 9 mentions of the word 'exalt'. Again, none of them means the process of becoming a God. Here is one example: 2 Nephi 24:13 - "For thou hast said in thy heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north..." Satan is not trying to make his throne a God. You made a referece to Rev 3:8-9. "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." This is a reference to those members of the church of Philadelphia. Do you believe those of the synagogue of Satan will worship members of the church of Philadelphia as Gods? Why aren't the members of all the other churches worshipped? This goes back to my analogy of a Christmas gift. Can you do something to earn this Christmas gift? The Book of Mormon says, "...for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." Does this mean salvation = exaltation = eternal life = a reward for doing all you can do? Jesus knows what we have done before the final judgment. He said "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left ... And these [the goats] shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous [the sheep] into life eternal." Are you a sheep, inheriting eternal life? I can agree with that. But our training is not for us to become a God or turn others into Gods. Yes. For this reason, I believe we have eternal life in the present. We accept this gift by faith only. But saving faith will produce works of faith. Eternal life begins the moment we place our faith in Christ. We receive this power when we accept the gift of the atonement. "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." If you are married, you are not constantly doing things to show your wife that you love her. Your love for her will lead to action. Saving faith produces works of faith. If you don't have a saving faith, then you won't have works of faith. If you love me, keep my commandments. Love must be there first. The context of sowing and reaping must consider that Christ is giving the growth as He lives life through you. I plant the seed but He gives the growth. He produces the wheat, corn, etc, and we just do the harvest. But I believe saved people will earn rewards. "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." There is a good explanation of sowing and reaping at gotquestions. If a person is not performing good works, it means that they were probably never saved in the first place. Based on your lack of response to my questions on Romans 8:14-17, Galatians 3:26-27,29, and Galatians 4:4-7, it appears you do not consider yourself as being led by the Spirit of God (thus an heir with Christ, thus a son of God).
  6. Who are the Gentiles and nations of 1 Nephi 13:19?
  7. How is that applicable to Christopher Columbus?
  8. President Monson seems to focus primarily on the United States being this choice land that Ether 2:12 talks about. I would say that Jesus is the God of the land of Canada too .. and Mexico, Brazil, etc. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200615-the-record-breaking-jet-which-still-haunts-a-country "There is an old Canadian joke that says the best thing that happened to America was the cancellation of the Arrow" If Canada had the resources to further expand the program, it is quite possible NASA would be based in the north country.
  9. From the introductory notes of the chapter, the church teaches that the Gentile is Christopher Columbus. What captivity are you referring to? Does all other nations include Japan, China, Australia and India?
  10. It seems we differ on the moment a person inherits eternal life and what that kind of life entails. I believe we inherit eternal life the moment we proclaim faith in Christ's atonement (before we die) and that eternal life is not living life as a god. I guess we can agree to disagree here. First, I would say 'earn' is works-based way to think about it. You cannot earn a gift. In my analogy, my Father has already given me the jet aircraft based on my willingness to accept the jet as his gift due to my faith in Him. I don't need to take flying classes because he is flying the plane with me in the cockpit. I'm just there for the ride allowing his will to guide the plane (my life). I didn't do anything to get this jet aircraft. My Father offered it freely to me and I accepted it due to my belief in him. I invited my friends into the jet, informing them that Jesus is really flying the plane, and to trust him to lead them safely to Tahiti. I tell them that I am not the pilot but Jesus is. They just need to believe and board the aircraft. Eternal life is a state of being, something that God gives us in the here and now if we allow Jesus to live his life through us. I believe Jesus is upset with us if we don't use the unmerited talents and unmerited blessings he had given us to bless others. At this moment, I re-ask a previous question. When you accept a Christmas gift (from a stranger or someone you know), do you believe you are getting the gift because you deserved and earned it or was it nothing to do about yourself but rather solely the generosity of the giver? This is scary for I do poorly with these 2 commandments" "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets." Yes. Good works are a sign of a saved person. Romans 8:14-17 says, "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, Abba! Father! The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs-heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him." Are you led by the Spirit of God (thereby a son of God, an heir)? Galatians 3:26-27,29 says, "... for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise." Galatians 4:4-7 says, "But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba! Father! So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God." Are you a son of God (thereby an heir)?
  11. I believe eternal life is a gift of faith, not an earned reward for obedience to a long list of commands (John 3:15; Romans 4:4). If I could earn eternal life with my works, then I could boast. Let me try to use the example of Christmas. When you accept a Christmas gift, do you believe you are getting the gift because you deserved and earned it or was it nothing to do about yourself but rather solely the generosity of the giver? The actions of the sheep vs. the actions of the goats are just the natural outpouring of their saved or unsaved conditions. Good works do not cause one to become saved, but being saved through faith in Christ leads someone to perform good works. That is why the saved (the sheep) inherit eternal life.
  12. I am aware of Christ's teaching about feeding the hungry, etc, and this I and many people of various faiths do, but I was putting extra focus on one specific thing he said - that his sheep inherit eternal life. The goats do not. Do you believe the LDS Church's definition that eternal life = exaltation?
  13. Hi Ken, Do you believe the LDS President has the gift to translate the ancient Mayan records? Thanks, Jim
  14. Salvation = eternal life; a gift of God based on faith. I don't believe in the LDS definition of eternal life (exaltation to godhood). I don't believe that eternal life is earned based on obedience to commandments and performing temple ordinances. So, based on Jesus' teaching, I encourage you to accept God's gift of eternal life so you will be counted as one of his sheep.
  15. In the LDS account of the Garden of Eden narrative, obedience to God would also have frustrated God's plan.
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