Of Faith, Trials, The Holy Ghost And Testimony

[CCRW]

I don't think any of those labels apply to anyone.

If you have a temple recommend, you are as much a faithful member as anyone can be.

Labels are only useful to judge and put down others, and to separate members from each other.

 

I don't disagree.  I'm also not trying to encourage the use.  I just want to understand what the stereotype is when I hear it.

[mfbukowski]

I need some help/advice.  First some background information:

 

For many years, home teachers have been fairly consistent in visiting my home.  Up until about eight months ago, I was always gracious and listened to their lesson, allowing prayer, sometimes offering it myself.  One Sunday my wife came home a very upset upon hearing gossip in the hall that I was giving my home teachers anti-Mormon material.   She knew this was not true.

 

I was angry and informed her that this is my home and that I was not going to just sit and listen anymore.  My house, my rules so you better inform them to just not come anymore or they are going to get an ear full.  We got a new set of HT companions, one nom’ish the other staunch orthodox.   On their first visit I related to them my wife’s experience and my anger over it, and if they were going to come I was going to give the lessons.  I prepared one and gave it each month they showed up.  As you might guess there was a lot of contention between myself and the one Brother (we are all HP).

 

This poor brother was shocked and did not approach me during a small SS class and then HPG last Sunday (I don’t blame him).  A similar look of shock from one of the Bishopric members who was greeting people at the Chapel doors (I don’t know any of this Bishopric).  Over all the years, the ward has split and changed.  Maybe a quarter of these people know me from my TBM days (including the nom’ish HT), the rest I do not know at all.  Bottom line, I’m coming back into this as a well-known anti-Mormon apostate (and very antagonistic to my HT over the last several months).

 

The current HPGL was one of my old HT’s I know him from before, he is a good man.  I called him upon hearing the rumor to ask him if I had forgotten about giving him something controversial.  He said I had not.

 

Question:

As I try and come back, I’m considering asking the HPGL if I could address the quorum, noting the potential of danger in me as well as trying to express a change which is like the flip of a light switch.  Should I prayerfully try and clear the air somehow?

I would suggest that you definitely try to clear the air.

Meet with the bishop and tell him all you have said here.

Barring that, meet with the hpgl and do the same. He knows you better than the bishop.

Not a good time to address the group, since they misunderstand your intent and might see you as threatening, even if that is totally unjustified.

After the chats,maybe speaking to the group might be acceptable but that might take some time. At this point you need to re-establish trust, even if the problem was not your fault.

That's just the way people are, unfortunately.

[Boanerges]

I know I'm a little late to this party, but I am very much like Fly, even down to the number of kids (but no grands yet). I know there are many more orthodox out there who don't believe God does this - but He does. I don't believe for a minute it is a test of faith, for that is the case then the outcome is obvious and more prayer is obviously also not the answer. I don't know why it happens, but I do bear witness that it does happen. Other than that I have no answers.

[Scott Lloyd]

I don't think any of those labels apply to anyone.

If you have a temple recommend, you are as much a faithful member as anyone can be.

Labels are only useful to judge and put down others, and to separate members from each other.

Some people hold temple recommends who ought not have them.

 

Do you disagree with this?

[mfbukowski]

I don't disagree.  I'm also not trying to encourage the use.  I just want to understand what the stereotype is when I hear it.

I have read a lot of Givens, and I see him as just a very well read and brilliant guy who thinks with a lot of precision. He is definitely not a literalist, but neither am I.

Can't help you much understanding the stereotypes, because they make no sense to me, quite honestly.

[mfbukowski]

Some people hold temple recommends who ought not have them.

 

Do you disagree with this?

Assuming they have answered honestly and with good intentions, I would absolutely disagree, and who are you to judge them?

[Mystery Meat]

I know I'm a little late to this party, but I am very much like Fly, even down to the number of kids (but no grands yet). I know there are many more orthodox out there who don't believe God does this - but He does. I don't believe for a minute it is a test of faith, for that is the case then the outcome is obvious and more prayer is obviously also not the answer. I don't know why it happens, but I do bear witness that it does happen. Other than that I have no answers.

 

I am not sure what you are saying here.

 

Care to clarify?

[CCRW]

I don't think any of those labels apply to anyone.

If you have a temple recommend, you are as much a faithful member as anyone can be.

Labels are only useful to judge and put down others, and to separate members from each other.

 

Big help on the stereotypes!

 

so two groups:

 

1. faithful

2. unfaithful?

 

The various stereotypes that I'm somewhat familiar with would span both sides of the have/have not TR.  That is kind of an interesting thought

Edited April 22, 2015 by CCRW

[mfbukowski]

Big help on the stereotypes!

 

so two groups:

 

1. faithful

2. unfaithful?

 

The various stereotypes that I'm somewhat familiar with would span both sides of the have/have not TR.  That is kind of an interesting thought

Well yes generally speaking, but it is only up to their bishops and sp's to decide that, and if those two get it wrong, there is not much that can be done unless someone actually has evidence they should not have a recommend, and presents it to their bishop.

I think it is highly hazardous, spiritually speaking to try to judge others.

Usually it just results in thinking about how much better I am than they are, or some false sense of my own depravity on the other hand.

Thank God for repentance, and for not judging us for our temptations.

As Bob Dylan said,

"If my thought-dreams

Could be seen,

They'd put my head

In a guillotine".

[mfbukowski]

We still don't have Thought Police.

What time is it?

[Scott Lloyd]

Assuming they have answered honestly and with good intentions, I would absolutely disagree, and who are you to judge them?

Well, you put a qualifier on it that I did not, right?

 

Or are you arguing that anyone who succeeds in obtaining a temple recommend deserves it?

[CCRW]

Usually it just results in thinking about how much better I am than they are, or some false sense of my own depravity on the other hand.

 

good point ...

 

I suppose if it were possible to collapse these last two, we would need to move to the depraved side of the fence.

 

I saw an interesting discussion recently where this concept could possibly find foundations at the original sin level

[CCRW]

Well, you put a qualifier on it that I did not, right?

 

Or are you arguing that anyone who succeeds in obtaining a temple recommend deserves it?

 

maybe ones needs exceeds the deserves?

[ALarson]

Well, you put a qualifier on it that I did not, right?

 

Or are you arguing that anyone who succeeds in obtaining a temple recommend deserves it?

Why do you care?  That's between them and their Bishop and SP.  (Unless you're called to be their judge in Israel.)

[ALarson]

Hey CCRW, sounds like you're in a tough situation.  I think that you and I are in a similar place with the church, so I understand.  I just try to attend church and keep any negative thoughts or comments to myself.  Sometimes I do leave during a talk or lesson and just go out and go for a walk.  This seems to help.  I love the gospel of Jesus Christ and I love most all of the people who attend my ward.  I just try to focus on that.

 

I'm lucky in that we haven't had any home teachers visit us for years (other than treats at Christmas, which I really don't mind ), and I'm friendly with the guy who is supposed to be home teaching us.  I would have a hard time having someone come into my home and try to preach to me.

 

I think the best advice is to maybe talk to your High Priest group leader.  Be honest.  Maybe he needs to assign you a new home teacher and you both start out fresh?  

[mfbukowski]

Well, you put a qualifier on it that I did not, right?

Or are you arguing that anyone who succeeds in obtaining a temple recommend deserves it?

Holy cow Scott, I don't belive it.

How could you POSSIBLY think I meant that?

You didn't even read the post. It was about what the standard is for faithful members.

Take a second look at your target before you routinely pull the trigger. He may be unarmed and actually have good intentions.

Edited April 23, 2015 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

We still don't have Thought Police.

What time is it?

I guess it's later and darker than I thought. Edited April 23, 2015 by mfbukowski