Of Faith, Trials, The Holy Ghost And Testimony

[Kenngo1969]

 

 Being the ultimate doubting Thomas, I need to see your "wounds" because I don't follow anyone who doesn't walk with at least a little bit of a limp.

 

 

Heh-heh.  Careful, Newb!  You wouldn't want to have to eat those words: I have Cerebral Palsy; I walk either (1) with a very pronounced limp (more than just a little bit! ); or (2) with a pair of forearm/Canadian crutches.

 

... How is our church supposed to be a hospital when no one will admit what ails them?  ...

 

 

 

Yep.  I've said it before, but too often, we forget that the Church is a Hospital for the Spiritually Sick, not a Resort for the Spiritually Well.  And all of us, to a greater or lesser extent (even if our lives are going swimmingly and we have no major complaints (how would it be?)) are spiritually sick, even if our only major issue is that we're Far From Home, essentially spiritual beings who have been sent here to have a mortal experience rather than essentially mortal beings who have been sent here to have occasional spiritual experiences.

 

... And I wonder why we have such an aversion to being vulnerable with fellow saints.  ...

 

Gotta keep up with the Joneses, spiritually speaking, I guess.  We have a bad habit of comparing our worst to everyone else's best, especially when the only place we see these folks is at Church: for cryin' out loud, where else would one expect to see someone more on his best behavior?!

 

Is it because we think they will judge us and perhaps, pull away from us?

 

That's probably a big part of it, in many cases.

 

I'm new around here, so maybe that is the case.  But with me, that vulnerability has just the opposite effect.  I was genuinely touched by Ken's story and we have had one or two TINY disagreements on this board.  But now, after being touched by his honesty, I won't call him racist nearly as much as I used to (although I'm not making any promises).  Seriously, I have so much more respect for his faith in this Gospel because I now see that it has been tested.  In fact, it makes me think, "If he can maintain his faith after dealing with real affliction, then maybe I can drop my objections to the phrasing of the fourth paragraph in the blacks and priesthood essay." (once again, no promises)

 

You'll probably want to retract that at some point, but forgive me if I bask in the moment while it lasts (however fleeting it may be! )  Seriously ... thanks.  Means a lot coming from you.  

Edited April 17, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[CCRW]

The biggest problem I see with Ken is we've got to get him to lose that tie!

 

Heh-heh.  Careful, Newb!  You wouldn't want to have to eat those words: I have Cerebral Palsy; I walk either (1) with a very pronounced limp (more than just a little bit! ); or (2) with a pair of forearm/Canadian crutches.

[JLHPROF]

Heh-heh.  Careful, Newb!  You wouldn't want to have to eat those words: I have Cerebral Palsy; I walk either (1) with a very pronounced limp (more than just a little bit! ); or (2) with a pair of forearm/Canadian crutches.

 

I never knew that about you Ken.

I know a wonderfully spiritual man (who I believe has CP too) who went through medical school and got his MD but the state wouldn't license him to practice because of it.

He carved out a career in another scientific area (one of the smartest men I know) and had a home business with his wife who was a midwife delivering babies.  He probably delivered hundreds of babies in his life and he always said he never dropped one yet.  He believed the Lord blessed his hands to function when they were needed.

[CCRW]

Raingirl,

 

I hope you are having a better day today.

[Kenngo1969]

I never knew that about you Ken.

I know a wonderfully spiritual man (who I believe has CP too) who went through medical school and got his MD but the state wouldn't license him to practice because of it.

He carved out a career in another scientific area (one of the smartest men I know) and had a home business with his wife who was a midwife delivering babies.  He probably delivered hundreds of babies in his life and he always said he never dropped one yet.  He believed the Lord blessed his hands to function when they were needed.

Thank you for the encouragement.  I'll be happy, if-and-when I find a job that allows me to rub more than two brain cells together at a time.  (Warm regards to you and your friend. )

[Kenngo1969]

The biggest problem I see with Ken is we've got to get him to lose that tie!

Not to worry.  My pending employer has a business casual dress code.

[CCRW]

Not to worry.  My pending employer has a business casual dress code.

So new selfie next Monday for a celebration avatar right?

[Kenngo1969]

So new selfie next Monday for a celebration avatar right?

I just got a new phone.  Not sure how to take pics on it yet, and don't have a cable for dowloading them, but I'll have to see what I can do.  (What can I say: I'm kinda old-fashioned: I still like to take pics with that dinosaur of a "modern" convenience known as a camera! )

Edited April 18, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[CCRW]

well, I'm excited for you ... few days of HR stuff, couple weeks of getting settled in, and welcome to the rat race!

[Robert F. Smith]

......................................................................   

I also truly believe that AFTER the trial of our faith come the blessings.

Or, additional responsibilities/callings.

 

A long time ago, a close friend of mine (who was then a graduate assistant to Hugh Nibley) had a horrible accident on I-15 on the way to California.  In fact, he died and was observing the accident scene from high above when someone pulled up, laid hands on him, and ordered him to live.  After months of recovery at UCLA Medical Center in L.A., he was finally released and went back to Provo.  When he explained his absence to his boss, Hugh's reply was matter-of-fact: "The Lord hasn't used you up yet."

 

Hugh understood the matter well, since he had also died and gone to heaven at about age 12.  For such men, belief is second nature, there being no further question about the reality of the Gospel, or of their obligations to serve fully for the remainder of their lives.

[readstoomuch]

What a great thread!  We needs so many more threads that involve topics like this.  It is so nice not to be talking about one of the usual three topics (SSM, polygamy, etc).

 

The closest I ever got to this type of trial was when I was sick and almost died.  It went on for about 18 months and couldn`t be figured out.  I finally just gave up and sat at home waiting to die.  Each day I kept waking up alive despite being sicker than a dog.  Finally, I felt an answer to prayer, though it still took another three months to finally get an answer.  At least I had come to peace with it and despite not being sure I was going to live, I wash`t going to let it take away my belief in God or the Church.  Then a diagnosis made it possible to treat and that was eight years ago.  

[Mystery Meat]

What a great thread!  We needs so many more threads that involve topics like this.  It is so nice not to be talking about one of the usual three topics (SSM, polygamy, etc).

 

The closest I ever got to this type of trial was when I was sick and almost died.  It went on for about 18 months and couldn`t be figured out.  I finally just gave up and sat at home waiting to die.  Each day I kept waking up alive despite being sicker than a dog.  Finally, I felt an answer to prayer, though it still took another three months to finally get an answer.  At least I had come to peace with it and despite not being sure I was going to live, I wash`t going to let it take away my belief in God or the Church.  Then a diagnosis made it possible to treat and that was eight years ago.  

 

I am grateful that others have chimed in to share. I agree that the board is better when we are uplifting and not bickering. 

[Mystery Meat]

I thought these verses from the Book of Mosiah, chapter 23 were relevant:

 

21 Nevertheless the Lord seeth fit to chasten his people; yea, he trieth their patience and their faith.

22 Nevertheless—whosoever putteth his trust in him the same shall be lifted up at the last day. Yea, and thus it was with this people.

 

[CCRW]

Raingirl,

 

Post up if you feel like some public support ... I can only respond to you and have limited posts per day here.

 

You are still in my thoughts

[Scott Lloyd]

For the past few years of my life (basically since I returned from my mission) I have felt cut off from the Lord. Many times I have felt like the prophet Joseph Smith felt when he asked the Lord why he had been forsaken. For the most part I feel as though I lived a good, Mormon life. I never stopped going to Church. I prayed on a regular basis (multiple times a day). I went to all my meetings (from the Sunday block to the Saturday evening Stake Conference sessions). I spent some time as an ordinance worker at a temple in Utah. I was doing a lot of the right things. I was never perfect. But I was trying. Yet, I felt as though my righteous desires and prayers were going unfulfilled and unheard. The times I did feel the influence of the Holy Ghost were few and far between.

 

A few years ago, when I first encountered some of the honest truth about Church history (not to mention a whole lot of the disinformation, distortion and conclusion jumping that seems to come with it), I was in the perfect situation to question what I *thought* I knew.

 

And I did.

 

After a few weeks of wondering what I really knew, I came to the conclusion that I was going to believe, because I wanted to believe. I lived in this state of testimony for a matter of months before upgrading to a level of faith where I believed because it made me happy and I truly believed it was true. That is essentially where I have been for the past few years.

 

That all changed a few weeks ago. I had a prompting one evening that I ignored at first. But I couldn't shake it. I followed the prompting and the fruit of that choice has been undeniable. Whereas the the Spirit seemed absent for years (about a third of my life's worth), now I can't seem to escape its influence in my life. The word outpouring comes to mind. I won't go into specifics. Suffice it say some things can't be explained by improbable coincidence or chance. I feel confident in exchanging the word believe with the word know when it comes to my testimony.

 

The interesting thing is, nothing I was personally doing changed. I didn't all of sudden start making better choices. I wasn't more perfect than before (in fact, probably the EXACT opposite; my strength was actually waning). I believe, and the Spirit seems to accord (thank you, BRM), that the Lord purposefully withdrew himself from me. I believe it was my trial. It was a trial with a designated time period; not one I could shorten by learning some thing or developing some trait. The only way to end the trial was to hold on for the ride and wait for it to stop. It feels as though it was designed to try my faith and confidence in the Lord.

 

I share this because I know I am not the only one who has felt this way. Based on my interactions with many on this board, I think it is safe to say that more than a few of you, after having done many of the right things, have been left to ask "What am I doing wrong? Why are the heavens closed to me? ARE YOU EVEN LISTENING? ARE YOU EVEN THERE?" 

 

In my experience the Lord does try our faith in very real ways. There are trials of our own making. Trials of living in a mortal, fallen world. Trials caused by the adversary of our souls. But I firmly believe that there are trials of testimony caused by the Lord, God Himself. And if my life is any indication they come at the most inopportune times and conflict with the most righteous and good desires of our hearts; desires placed their by the Lord! Yet, if we can no more than desire to believe, living our lives with faith and hope, never casting out our faith or eliminating any chance for it to take root by doubt and impatience, it is my testimony that the Lord WILL (in my case has) compensate us in ways we can't comprehend.

I heard the other day that the author of the children's song "A Child's Prayer" went through a similar experience. As an adult, not child, and that led to the writing of the song.

Congratulations on all the rep points. I don't think I've ever gotten nearly that many for one post.

[Tacenda]

A really great guy shared this on FB!  http://rationalfaiths.com/you-belong/

 

Very true and hopefully more talks like it be shared.  

[CCRW]

I enjoyed the talk Tacenda, thank you for linking it.

 

Question;  I've seen the label "progressive" here a few times.  Would Terryl Givens be considered a progressive?  Or is Progressive/NOM basically synonymous?

[Tacenda]

I enjoyed the talk Tacenda, thank you for linking it.

 

Question;  I've seen the label "progressive" here a few times.  Would Terryl Givens be considered a progressive?  Or is Progressive/NOM basically synonymous?

You're welcome, but need to give the credit to Duncan, he shared on FB.  

[CCRW]

I need some help/advice.  First some background information:

 

For many years, home teachers have been fairly consistent in visiting my home.  Up until about eight months ago, I was always gracious and listened to their lesson, allowing prayer, sometimes offering it myself.  One Sunday my wife came home a very upset upon hearing gossip in the hall that I was giving my home teachers anti-Mormon material.   She knew this was not true.

 

I was angry and informed her that this is my home and that I was not going to just sit and listen anymore.  My house, my rules so you better inform them to just not come anymore or they are going to get an ear full.  We got a new set of HT companions, one nom’ish the other staunch orthodox.   On their first visit I related to them my wife’s experience and my anger over it, and if they were going to come I was going to give the lessons.  I prepared one and gave it each month they showed up.  As you might guess there was a lot of contention between myself and the one Brother (we are all HP).

 

This poor brother was shocked and did not approach me during a small SS class and then HPG last Sunday (I don’t blame him).  A similar look of shock from one of the Bishopric members who was greeting people at the Chapel doors (I don’t know any of this Bishopric).  Over all the years, the ward has split and changed.  Maybe a quarter of these people know me from my TBM days (including the nom’ish HT), the rest I do not know at all.  Bottom line, I’m coming back into this as a well-known anti-Mormon apostate (and very antagonistic to my HT over the last several months).

 

The current HPGL was one of my old HT’s I know him from before, he is a good man.  I called him upon hearing the rumor to ask him if I had forgotten about giving him something controversial.  He said I had not.

 

Question:

As I try and come back, I’m considering asking the HPGL if I could address the quorum, noting the potential of danger in me as well as trying to express a change which is like the flip of a light switch.  Should I prayerfully try and clear the air somehow?

[ALarson]

I need some help/advice.  First some background information:

 

For many years, home teachers have been fairly consistent in visiting my home.  Up until about eight months ago, I was always gracious and listened to their lesson, allowing prayer, sometimes offering it myself.  One Sunday my wife came home a very upset upon hearing gossip in the hall that I was giving my home teachers anti-Mormon material.   She knew this was not true.

 

I was angry and informed her that this is my home and that I was not going to just sit and listen anymore.  My house, my rules so you better inform them to just not come anymore or they are going to get an ear full.  We got a new set of HT companions, one nom’ish the other staunch orthodox.   On their first visit I related to them my wife’s experience and my anger over it, and if they were going to come I was going to give the lessons.  I prepared one and gave it each month they showed up.  As you might guess there was a lot of contention between myself and the one Brother (we are all HP).

 

This poor brother was shocked and did not approach me during a small SS class and then HPG last Sunday (I don’t blame him).  A similar look of shock from one of the Bishopric members who was greeting people at the Chapel doors (I don’t know any of this Bishopric).  Over all the years, the ward has split and changed.  Maybe a quarter of these people know me from my TBM days (including the nom’ish HT), the rest I do not know at all.  Bottom line, I’m coming back into this as a well-known anti-Mormon apostate (and very antagonistic to my HT over the last several months).

 

The current HPGL was one of my old HT’s I know him from before, he is a good man.  I called him upon hearing the rumor to ask him if I had forgotten about giving him something controversial.  He said I had not.

 

Question:

As I try and come back, I’m considering asking the HPGL if I could address the quorum, noting the potential of danger in me as well as trying to express a change which is like the flip of a light switch.  Should I prayerfully try and clear the air somehow?

Have you changed your views regarding the topics you discussed with past home teachers or are you just going to agree not to discuss these in the future?

[readstoomuch]

I think it is nl for people to be guarded. It would be best to just show them by example that you aren't that bitter apostate anymore(unless I am wrong). I would just let your home teachers give the message and be gracious. I don't think it will take for them to change their minds.

[mfbukowski]

For the past few years of my life (basically since I returned from my mission) I have felt cut off from the Lord. Many times I have felt like the prophet Joseph Smith felt when he asked the Lord why he had been forsaken. For the most part I feel as though I lived a good, Mormon life. I never stopped going to Church. I prayed on a regular basis (multiple times a day). I went to all my meetings (from the Sunday block to the Saturday evening Stake Conference sessions). I spent some time as an ordinance worker at a temple in Utah. I was doing a lot of the right things. I was never perfect. But I was trying. Yet, I felt as though my righteous desires and prayers were going unfulfilled and unheard. The times I did feel the influence of the Holy Ghost were few and far between.

 

A few years ago, when I first encountered some of the honest truth about Church history (not to mention a whole lot of the disinformation, distortion and conclusion jumping that seems to come with it), I was in the perfect situation to question what I *thought* I knew.

 

And I did.

 

After a few weeks of wondering what I really knew, I came to the conclusion that I was going to believe, because I wanted to believe. I lived in this state of testimony for a matter of months before upgrading to a level of faith where I believed because it made me happy and I truly believed it was true. That is essentially where I have been for the past few years.

 

That all changed a few weeks ago. I had a prompting one evening that I ignored at first. But I couldn't shake it. I followed the prompting and the fruit of that choice has been undeniable. Whereas the the Spirit seemed absent for years (about a third of my life's worth), now I can't seem to escape its influence in my life. The word outpouring comes to mind. I won't go into specifics. Suffice it say some things can't be explained by improbable coincidence or chance. I feel confident in exchanging the word believe with the word know when it comes to my testimony.

 

The interesting thing is, nothing I was personally doing changed. I didn't all of sudden start making better choices. I wasn't more perfect than before (in fact, probably the EXACT opposite; my strength was actually waning). I believe, and the Spirit seems to accord (thank you, BRM), that the Lord purposefully withdrew himself from me. I believe it was my trial. It was a trial with a designated time period; not one I could shorten by learning some thing or developing some trait. The only way to end the trial was to hold on for the ride and wait for it to stop. It feels as though it was designed to try my faith and confidence in the Lord.

 

I share this because I know I am not the only one who has felt this way. Based on my interactions with many on this board, I think it is safe to say that more than a few of you, after having done many of the right things, have been left to ask "What am I doing wrong? Why are the heavens closed to me? ARE YOU EVEN LISTENING? ARE YOU EVEN THERE?" 

 

In my experience the Lord does try our faith in very real ways. There are trials of our own making. Trials of living in a mortal, fallen world. Trials caused by the adversary of our souls. But I firmly believe that there are trials of testimony caused by the Lord, God Himself. And if my life is any indication they come at the most inopportune times and conflict with the most righteous and good desires of our hearts; desires placed their by the Lord! Yet, if we can no more than desire to believe, living our lives with faith and hope, never casting out our faith or eliminating any chance for it to take root by doubt and impatience, it is my testimony that the Lord WILL (in my case has) compensate us in ways we can't comprehend.

Best post of the year.

IOU several random rep points

[CCRW]

Have you changed your views regarding the topics you discussed with past home teachers or are you just going to agree not to discuss these in the future?

 

very long story, in brief

no, yes

[mfbukowski]

I enjoyed the talk Tacenda, thank you for linking it.

 

Question;  I've seen the label "progressive" here a few times.  Would Terryl Givens be considered a progressive?  Or is Progressive/NOM basically synonymous?

I don't think any of those labels apply to anyone.

If you have a temple recommend, you are as much a faithful member as anyone can be.

Labels are only useful to judge and put down others, and to separate members from each other.

[CCRW]

I think it is nl for people to be guarded. It would be best to just show them by example that you aren't that bitter apostate anymore(unless I am wrong). I would just let your home teachers give the message and be gracious. I don't think it will take for them to change their mind

 

I don't believe the HT's will be an issue.  I'm wondering more if I almost own them a statement and if it might help with all the rumors that will be flying around