Of Faith, Trials, The Holy Ghost And Testimony

[Mystery Meat]

For the past few years of my life (basically since I returned from my mission) I have felt cut off from the Lord. Many times I have felt like the prophet Joseph Smith felt when he asked the Lord why he had been forsaken. For the most part I feel as though I lived a good, Mormon life. I never stopped going to Church. I prayed on a regular basis (multiple times a day). I went to all my meetings (from the Sunday block to the Saturday evening Stake Conference sessions). I spent some time as an ordinance worker at a temple in Utah. I was doing a lot of the right things. I was never perfect. But I was trying. Yet, I felt as though my righteous desires and prayers were going unfulfilled and unheard. The times I did feel the influence of the Holy Ghost were few and far between.

 

A few years ago, when I first encountered some of the honest truth about Church history (not to mention a whole lot of the disinformation, distortion and conclusion jumping that seems to come with it), I was in the perfect situation to question what I *thought* I knew.

 

And I did.

 

After a few weeks of wondering what I really knew, I came to the conclusion that I was going to believe, because I wanted to believe. I lived in this state of testimony for a matter of months before upgrading to a level of faith where I believed because it made me happy and I truly believed it was true. That is essentially where I have been for the past few years.

 

That all changed a few weeks ago. I had a prompting one evening that I ignored at first. But I couldn't shake it. I followed the prompting and the fruit of that choice has been undeniable. Whereas the the Spirit seemed absent for years (about a third of my life's worth), now I can't seem to escape its influence in my life. The word outpouring comes to mind. I won't go into specifics. Suffice it say some things can't be explained by improbable coincidence or chance. I feel confident in exchanging the word believe with the word know when it comes to my testimony.

 

The interesting thing is, nothing I was personally doing changed. I didn't all of sudden start making better choices. I wasn't more perfect than before (in fact, probably the EXACT opposite; my strength was actually waning). I believe, and the Spirit seems to accord (thank you, BRM), that the Lord purposefully withdrew himself from me. I believe it was my trial. It was a trial with a designated time period; not one I could shorten by learning some thing or developing some trait. The only way to end the trial was to hold on for the ride and wait for it to stop. It feels as though it was designed to try my faith and confidence in the Lord.

 

I share this because I know I am not the only one who has felt this way. Based on my interactions with many on this board, I think it is safe to say that more than a few of you, after having done many of the right things, have been left to ask "What am I doing wrong? Why are the heavens closed to me? ARE YOU EVEN LISTENING? ARE YOU EVEN THERE?" 

 

In my experience the Lord does try our faith in very real ways. There are trials of our own making. Trials of living in a mortal, fallen world. Trials caused by the adversary of our souls. But I firmly believe that there are trials of testimony caused by the Lord, God Himself. And if my life is any indication they come at the most inopportune times and conflict with the most righteous and good desires of our hearts; desires placed their by the Lord! Yet, if we can no more than desire to believe, living our lives with faith and hope, never casting out our faith or eliminating any chance for it to take root by doubt and impatience, it is my testimony that the Lord WILL (in my case has) compensate us in ways we can't comprehend.

[JLHPROF]

There are some points in here I could address, but since the overall message is so good I will just give a well deserved rep point and let them be.

I also truly believe that AFTER the trial of our faith come the blessings.

[Mystery Meat]

There are some points in here I could address, but since the overall message is so good I will just give a well deserved rep point and let them be.

I also truly believe that AFTER the trial of our faith come the blessings.

 

I would actually be curious as to the points you would address. I don't claim to have a perfect knowledge of everything that has happened and would be open to your thoughts.

[JLHPROF]

I would actually be curious as to the points you would address. I don't claim to have a perfect knowledge of everything that has happened and would be open to your thoughts.

 

Oh, nothing major, just being nitpicky.  I don't want to detract from your wonderful post.

 

I believe, and the Spirit seems to accord (thank you, BRM), that the Lord purposefully withdrew himself from me. I believe it was my trial. It was a trial with a designated time period;

 

But I firmly believe that there are trials of testimony caused by the Lord, God Himself.

 

Mostly this (which is already being addressed on the stumbling blocks thread).

I am not disagreeing with this but I think the separation of the withdrawal of the spirit from the trials of testimony is an important distinction to make, even though they are inseparably joined.

 

A good example is Joseph's time in Liberty Jail.  What was the actual source of that trial?

 

Option 1 - Being imprisoned by wicked men (source = man)

Option 2 - Being ALLOWED to be imprisoned by wicked men (source = God)

Option 3 - Having God not answer/withdraw spirit for a short while (source = God, the adversary, or Joseph himself?)

 

Another fascinating example of spiritual withdrawal was Christ on the Cross asking God why he had been forsaken.  Was that actually a trial of the Saviors faith?  Did even the Savior actually doubt for a moment?

 

I am uncomfortable with the notion that God ever acts directly to cause us to go down a path of sin or error.  It seems to contradict what we know of God.  We know from several places in the scriptures that God sometimes steps back spiritually and allows us to be tempted by those paths.

So is that God trying us or allowing us to be tried, and is there an actual difference?

 

Anyway, as I said, nitpicky...

[Mystery Meat]

 

I am uncomfortable with the notion that God ever acts directly to cause us to go down a path of sin or error.  It seems to contradict what we know of God.  We know from several places in the scriptures that God sometimes steps back spiritually and allows us to be tempted by those paths.

So is that God trying us or allowing us to be tried, and is there an actual difference?

 

Anyway, as I said, nitpicky...

 

I don't think nitpicky. I agree with everything you said and I think this portion is worth examining. I don't think the Lord ever leads to sin. That notion is wrong. The other examples you shared are spot on and I have reflected on the withdrawal the Savior experienced a lot lately. Surely, the Spirit can withdraw for a multitude of reasons. In the Savior's case, it is not possible it was because of something He did. For some reason, unknowable to me, Father in Heaven left him alone to experience what He did. 

 

In my case, I won't say I was ever abandoned. My personal worthiness never really felt in question, and in fact I would say, if anything, was worse towards the end. In some ways, I am sure my feeling the Spirit was withdrawn can be attributed to not recognizing the blessings I did have. However, none of that explains why I felt the sudden outpouring of the Spirit. Curious.

 

Anyhow, I appreciate your thoughts, and I don't disagree. I don't think the Lord would lead any to sin. But I do think he tries and refines. It is up to us, to a certain extent, to except the trial and allow it to refine.

[Avatar4321]

Thank you for this. I've been going through some trials lately and questioning the purpose of them. I know the Lord has a plan for then and I'm not really sure I understand the place in the plan some of these trials are.

I've been seeking a greater portion of the spirit and power in my priesthood calling. I feel the need to preach with power and act with not only authority but with the power to bless others. I'll be more specific.

my wife has been going through a painful period in her life and my trial is watching it happen. Some of the trial is extreme physical pain. I've given her blessings. And there has been some relief. But not as powerful as I've been hoping for. I don't foresee her dying from this so I see no reason she can't be healed completely. It makes me question whether I have sufficient power in the priesthood.

so I don know if I'm doing something wrong. Or whether it's The timing of it or a combination. I suppose it may be something we have to wait until the resurrection yo be healed from but I also feel impressed we will have more children and that will be unlikely as long as the pain continues.

the Lord will guide as He sees fit. It would be nice to know what to do though.

[Mystery Meat]

Thank you for this. I've been going through some trials lately and questioning the purpose of them. I know the Lord has a plan for then and I'm not really sure I understand the place in the plan some of these trials are.

I've been seeking a greater portion of the spirit and power in my priesthood calling. I feel the need to preach with power and act with not only authority but with the power to bless others. I'll be more specific.

my wife has been going through a painful period in her life and my trial is watching it happen. Some of the trial is extreme physical pain. I've given her blessings. And there has been some relief. But not as powerful as I've been hoping for. I don't foresee her dying from this so I see no reason she can't be healed completely. It makes me question whether I have sufficient power in the priesthood.

so I don know if I'm doing something wrong. Or whether it's The timing of it or a combination. I suppose it may be something we have to wait until the resurrection yo be healed from but I also feel impressed we will have more children and that will be unlikely as long as the pain continues.

the Lord will guide as He sees fit. It would be nice to know what to do though.

 

Thanks for sharing. That must be excruciating to watch (and feel helpless) as your wife struggles with pain. I wish I had all the answers. I do believe the Lord blesses us for persisting in doing what is right, even (especially) when our faith is stretched.  

[CCRW]

ivjd66,

 

I suppose you have been reading some of my takeover of social forum as of late.  I appreciate your thoughts here as they hit very close to home.

 

A good example is Joseph's time in Liberty Jail.  What was the actual source of that trial?

 

Option 1 - Being imprisoned by wicked men (source = man)

Option 2 - Being ALLOWED to be imprisoned by wicked men (source = God)

Option 3 - Having God not answer/withdraw spirit for a short while (source = God, the adversary, or Joseph himself?)

 

It was always Option 3 to me, with the source being God.

 

When someone truly desiring and pursuing righteousness cries out in such a manner, God why hast thou forsaken me? I believe it is when they are in the grips of the hardest type of trial God seems to give.  And then his spirit flees leaving one to their own, and hence the cry. 

 

These trials seem to always be a trial of contradiction where two opposing commands are given.  For example, thou shall not partake of that fruit, thou shall multiply and replenish.  Or thou shall not kill, sacrifice your son.  Or maybe in JS's case ... thou commanded me to move the restoration forward, and yet I am stopped, held back from the work.

  

Not obeying one or the other being a transgression or a sin.  It was a much smaller scale than these examples, but none the less, my trial was also one of contradiction which I never did figure out.  At one point I wondered if it was to lead me from the Church to experience a crisis of faith that I might have the compassion and understanding to then help others.  I think this same folly exhibited itself in the likes of JD in/out of church leading to his current situation.

 

So I’m not sure that we can say God does not give trials that would lead one to at least transgression if not sin.

Edited April 16, 2015 by CCRW

[JLHPROF]

So I’m not sure that we can say God does not give trials that would lead one to at least transgression if not sin.

 

I can understand this.  But I am unable to get around the fact that in doing so God is encouraging evil.  And that goes against everything I believe about God.  But then I also believe that the fall, which allowed sin/death into the world was always part of God's plan.

 

It's an interesting conflict - Does God encourage things that lead to evil?  How is that different from what the Adversary does?  Is the only difference really that God hopes the evil fails and the Adversary hopes it wins?

Edited April 16, 2015 by JLHPROF

[CCRW]

Avatar,

 

like ivjd66 sometimes I sense a knocking but my experience with taking the Gospel literally brought me to where I'm at.

 

Like I mentioned above with the contradictions, you are commanded to have the faith to achieve a level of righteousness to truely have the power of healing, yet its impossible to meet the required level of worthyness.

 

Once I tried to list out the first law given in the temple, figuring I better master it before trying to progress to the others.  I had a huge list of the "Law of the Gospel" and became discouraged realizing the impossibility of meeting it.

 

I teased once that it was like a childhood saying we had, that if one were to burp, fart and sneeze simultaneously that it would overload your system and kill you.  It was a good thing that it was physically impossible to do.

 

All I know is that pursuing these things can end up in a very painful place.

Edited April 16, 2015 by CCRW

[CCRW]

I can understand this.  But I am unable to get around the fact that in doing so God is encouraging evil.  And that goes against everything I believe about God.  But then I also believe that the fall, which allowed sin/death into the world was always part of God's plan.

 

It's an interesting conflict - Does God encourage things that lead to evil?  How is that different from what the Adversary does?  Is the only difference really that God hopes the evil fails and the Adversary hopes it wins?

 

I agree with the evil part.  If evil was in the soul of the seaker (one under trial) they never would have come to this point.  In Adam/Eve's case I believe that is why they say that they did not sin but that they transgressed.

 

I think its fair to say my trail lead me to transgression, not sin (swearing, drinking coffee, a couple binges) but never sin.

[Kenngo1969]

I don't know everything: Like Nephi in his exchange with the angel in his vision, I must simply say, "I know not the meaning of all things; nevertheless, I know that [God] loveth His children" (1 Nephi 11:17). And even though I don't know everything, I cannot deny what I do know.

 

With respect to what I do not know, often, the state of my faith best can be described in the plea of the man who asked the Savior to cast the evil spirit out of his son: "Lord, I believe; help Thou mine unbelief" (Mark 9:24). For various reasons, many of which I will never understand, He does.

 

To paraphrase Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, I am an imperfect, mortal, fallible human being, not unlike (though some of us are better than others) the rest of His Children; but, as Elder Holland also says, that's all God has ever had to work with; that must be terribly frustrating to Him, but He deals with it. I'm grateful He does.

 

Somehow, my weakness and imperfection notwithstanding, God finds ways to use me as His instrument, not because He needs me, but because I need Him. Frankly, I'm always a little surprised, and sometimes more than a little, at the ways and times that happens. Perhaps it should happen more often than it does, but I'm grateful for all of the times that it does.

 

I don't understand everything: Often, to use the Apostle Paul's phrase, I "see through a glass, darkly" (1 Corinthians 13:12), but I cannot deny the light and the understanding I have been given.

 

I wish I were better at living what I know, but to the extent I live it, I know I am blessed. I wish I were better at receiving the light God tries to give me, in order to hasten the progressive brightening of that light until the perfect day (see Doctrine & Covenants 50:24).

 

I struggled mightily with clinical depression throughout much of my legal education. A lot of that struggle was "stuff" that happened to me. Some of that struggle was the poor way I responded (and have responded) to that "stuff." The struggle continues; some days are better than others, but the biggest part of my struggle since graduation (which now is longer ago than I care to admit) has been finding ways to be useful. I wish I lived in a conditional admission jurisdiction.

 

I don't think the Bar's approach to people with psychiatric diagnoses and behavioral health issues here is terribly enlightened. It's as though the Bar says, "Yeah, we'll admit you, as long as you can prove that your condition never has and never will negatively impact your interaction with another human being." Well, of course it has negatively impacted my interactions with others! That's why it's an illness! And I'd love to give you a guarantee that it never will again, but I can't.

 

I understand the Bar's mission to perform a gatekeeping function and to prevent the unfit from prejudicing the rights of clients. But the irony is that if another employer were to attempt the kinds of things the Bar routinely does in an effort to ensure the fitness of its members, more than a few members of the Bar would scream bloody murder that such measures violate about half a dozen federal laws, and would haul that employer's @$$ into court so fast the ink on the complaint wouldn't even have time to dry! But the Bar can employ those measures because, well, it's the Bar.

 

It has seemed as though I'm in the perfect Catch-22: Employers who don't require a law degree want to know why I want to work for them, since I have one; and employers who do require a law degree won't hire me because I'm not licensed. I've tried everything: Listing my law degree while being up-front about my lack of licensure; not listing my law degree and having to find some creative ways to describe what I was doing with my life during that time; not listing any degree; et cetera.

 

I was recently offered employment in a support capacity at a disability law firm. I believe it was one of the Marx brothers who said that he wouldn't want to belong to any organization that would have him for a member. I don't dare to hope that, after all of this time, I have finally found an oasis in the midst of an otherwise-unending desert. I wonder if the employment corrollary to that "Marxism" is that I wouldn't want to work for any employer who's actually willing to hire me. Time will tell.

 

I made what might turn out to be a "sucker bet" on a horrendously expensive apartment (albeit a gorgeous one with terrific amenities) that's only about 2 1/2 miles from my work. (The only reason I met their income requirements is because I'll still be getting SSDI during the trial work period, so I may have to move out once my lease is up since my income will actually have declined.) For some reason, although I decided I couldn't afford to live there from the moment I walked in on a visit; although the first leasing agent with whom I spoke told me no one-bedrooms would be available until June (my job starts April 20); and although, a few days later, after I had just made arrangements to visit another complex in a nearby city, for some reason I still don't quite understand, before visiting the nearby city's complex, I called the horrendously expensive, unafordable, gorgeous, terrifically-appointed complex back . . . and was told that a one-bedroom had just opened up.

 

Things that make you go, "Hmmm."

 

Now, having said all of this, one of the things I've learned during this protracted sojourn in the desert is that God isn't Santa Claus: He doesn't give us "presents" when we're "good" and "lumps of coal" when we're not. Even the best of us cannot merit the blessings He bestows on us, and often, it seems as though even the worst of us is blessed far more than their behavior would seem to merit. I can only have faith that God will make all things right in the end.

[CCRW]

Ken,

 

I'm glad to hear you took the job and are moving so close.  This no doubt will open a whole new chapter in your life.

God bless

 

Oh and Ken, its ok man ... you don't have to tell everyone everything ... when some form asks about mental issues ... your answer should always be no.

Edited April 16, 2015 by CCRW

[Kenngo1969]

Ken,

 

I'm glad to hear you took the job and are moving so close.  This no doubt will open a whole new chapter in your life.

God bless

 

 

Thank you.

 

Oh and Ken, its ok man ... you don't have to tell everyone everything ... when some form asks about mental issues ... your answer should always be no.

 That can, depending on the circumstances, be a good strategy ...  Or it can backfire.  I've told more than a few entities, "NOYDB" (None Of Your Uhhh ... Business ) over the years.  However, with respect to the Bar, if an applicant doesn't disclose what the Bar deems relevant and material information, the applicant can be dinged for lack of candor.  If an applicant does, the Bar will use it as a brickbat to beat the applicant over the head. .  What's a person to do?

 

P.S.: In my case, that horse long since has left the barn.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Mystery Meat]

Ken,

 

That was beautiful. I am excited for your new adventure!

[The Nehor]

Asking God why you have been forsaken is not a sin. Joseph Smith did it, Job did it, and most importantly for determining it is not a sin the Savior of the World asked the question.

"My dear Wormwood,

So you 'have great hopes that the patient's religious phase is dying away', have you? I always thought the Training College had gone to pieces since they put old Slubgob at the head of it, and now I am sure. Has no one every told you about the law of Undulation?

Humans are amphibians-- half spirit and half animal. (The Enemy's determination to produce such a revolting hybrid was one of the things that determined Our Father to withdraw his support from Him.) As spirits they belong to the eternal world, but as animals they inhabit time. This means that while their spirit can be directed to an eternal object, their bodies, passions, and imaginations are in continual change, for as to be in time means to change. Their nearest approach to constancy, therefore, is undulation-- the repeated return to a level from which they repeatedly fall back, a series of troughs and peaks. If you had watched your patient carefully you would have seen this undulation in every department of his life-- his interest in his work, his affection for his friends, his physical appetites, all go up and down. As long as he lives on earth periods of emotional and bodily richness and liveliness will alternate with periods of numbness and poverty. The dryness and dullness through which your patient is now going are not, as you fondly suppose, your workmanship; they are merely a natural phenomenon which will do us no good unless you make a good use of it.

To decide what the best use of it is, you must ask what use the Enemy wants to make of it, and then do the opposite. Now it may surprise you to learn that in His efforts to get permanent possession of a soul, He relies on the troughs even more than on the peaks; some of His special favourites have gone through longer and deeper troughs than anyone else. The reason is this. To us a human is primarily food; our aim is the absorption of its will into ours, the increase of our own area of selfhood at its expense. But the obedience which the Enemy demands of men is quite a different thing. One must face the fact that all the talk about His love for men, and His service being perfect freedom, is not (as one would gladly believe) mere propaganda, but an appalling truth. He really does want to fill the universe with a lot of loathsome little replicas of Himself-- creatures whose life, on its miniature scale, will be qualitatively like His own, not because he has absorbed them but because their wills freely conform to His. We want cattle who can finally become food; He wants servants who can finally become sons. We want to suck in,, He wants to give out. We are empty and would be filled; He is full and flows over. Our war aim is a world in which Our Father Below has drawn all other beings into himself: the Enemy wants a world full of beings united to Him but still distinct.

And that is where the troughs come in. You must have often wondered why the Enemy does not make more use of His power to be sensibly present to human souls in any degree He chooses and at any moment. But you now see that the Irresistible and the Indisputable are the two weapons which the very nature of His scheme forbids Him to use. Merely to override a human will (as His felt presence in any but the faintest and most mitigated degree would certainly do) would be for Him useless. He cannot ravish. He can only woo. For His ignoble idea is to eat the cake and have it; the creatures are to be one with Him, but yet themselves; merely to cancel them, or assimilate them, will not serve. He is prepared to do a little overriding at the beginning. He will set them off with communications of His presence which, though faint, seem great to them, with emotional sweetness, and easy conquest over temptation. Sooner or later He withdraws, if not in fact, at least from their conscious experience, all those supports and incentives. He leaves the creature to stand up on its own legs-- to carry out from the will alone duties which have lost all relish. It is during such trough periods, much more than during the peak periods, that it is growing into the sort of creature He wants it to be. Hence the prayers offered in the state of dryness are those which please Him best. We can drag our patients along by continual tempting, because we design them only for the table, and the more their will is interfered with the better. He cannot 'tempt' to virtual as we do to vice. He wants them to learn to walk and must therefore take away His hand; and if only the will to walk is really there He is pleased even with their stumbles. Do not be deceived, Wormwood. Our cause is never more in danger than when a human, no longer desiring, but still intending, to do our Enemy's will, looks round upon a universe from which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys.

But of course the troughs afford opportunities to our side also. Next week I will give you some hints on how to exploit them,

You affectionate uncle

Screwtape"

-The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis

I have found that my prayers when I feel every urge not to pray are more powerful than when I am excited to pray and that God is more pleased with my stumbling attempts at obedience while my world is crashing down around me than my casual and confident obedience when all is going well.

Edited April 16, 2015 by The Nehor

[CCRW]

no words Nehor

[Kenngo1969]

... I have found that my prayers when I feel every urge not to pray are more powerful than when I am excited to pray and that God is more pleased with my stumbling attempts at obedience while my world is crashing down around me than my casual and confident obedience when all is going well.

There's a good deal of wisdom in this.

[Kenngo1969]

Mortal life, even at its best, is no bed of roses (to put it mildly)!  Even if we have no major problems and our lives are going swimmingly, we're still apt to feel a certain sense of dissatisfaction because we're out of our element here in mortality: we're not essentially mortal beings sent here to have occasional spiritual experiences, we're essentially spiritual beings sent here to have mortal experiences.

[Kenngo1969]

Ken,

 

That was beautiful. I am excited for your new adventure!

Thank you.

 

If I were to confess a certain amount of apprehension, even along with the firm hope and belief that God will look after me during this time of tremendous transition and uprootedness, that's OK, isn't it?  

 

I have not worked for pay in almost five years, and have not held a full-time, paid, benefited position in nearly eighteen years.

[Flyonthewall]

I have felt forsaken by the Lord for too long now. The burning question I have is why is prayer such an important teaching if He remains silent. When prayers for help, guidance, comfort, etc. remain unanswered, what lesson does one come away with.

I am left to muddle through on my own.

It is like playing Marco/Polo without anybody responding. At some point, you stop saying "Marco" and go do something else.

I figure the Lord knows me, where I am, and how to communicate with me, if He desires to do so, He will.

Sorry. Still waiting for my happy ending.

[CCRW]

How old are you fly? got wife/kids?

[Flyonthewall]

How old are you fly? got wife/kids?

I am 53. Wife, 4 kids. 3 grandkids.

[CCRW]

dang, that's tough, 57 here, 3 kids 6 grand here. All/some active?

[Flyonthewall]

dang, that's tough, 57 here, 3 kids 6 grand here. All/some active?

None are active. Though my oldest may start to go back with his wife.