Terryl Givens Vs. Alister Mcgrath On Doubt

[Hamilton Porter]

Givens: Doubt is normal; it's necessary in order for faith to be a choice. Live with it, even celebrate it.

 

McGrath: Doubt is normal; it's is a consequence of the Fall. But don't let it fester.

 

Kierkegaard: Don't even try to resolve your doubts. You'll make things worse. Just get busy doing your hometeaching and distract yourself.

 

I like what Givens is doing and I hope it works. But I think McGrath's approach is better. We shouldn't be celebrating it. I also think that doubt can zap your motivation and your strength as you try to live a faithful life in practice. In that regard, Kierkegaard isn't 100% right either.

 

 

[stemelbow]

We shouldn't be celebrating it. I also think that doubt can zap your motivation and your strength as you try to live a faithful life in practice. In that regard, Kierkegaard isn't 100% right either.

How can doubt zap your motivation and strength in you view?

Celebrating it could possibly take that zapping of your motivation and strength and turn it on its head. Perhaps?

[Hamilton Porter]

By the way, the reason I brought this up is because the framework with which we deal with tough issues is important for people I love. Not a pure intellectual exercise.

 

And Terryl Givens is my favorite author.

[Hamilton Porter]

How can doubt zap your motivation and strength in you view?

Celebrating it could possibly take that zapping of your motivation and strength and turn it on its head. Perhaps?

 

If you believe something 100%, you do it with more energy.

[wenglund]

How can doubt zap your motivation and strength in you view?

 

As a primer, the Lectures on Faith provide a workable explanation.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Scott Lloyd]

Givens: Doubt is normal; it's necessary in order for faith to be a choice. Live with it, even celebrate it.

 

McGrath: Doubt is normal; it's is a consequence of the Fall. But don't let it fester.

 

Kierkegaard: Don't even try to resolve your doubts. You'll make things worse. Just get busy doing your hometeaching and distract yourself.

 

I like what Givens is doing and I hope it works. But I think McGrath's approach is better. We shouldn't be celebrating it. I also think that doubt can zap your motivation and your strength as you try to live a faithful life in practice. In that regard, Kierkegaard isn't 100% right either.

I think you've really hit on something here.

 

In our haste to reassure people these days that doubts are a normal part of intellectual and spiritual development, we have almost elevated doubt to holy-grail status, and that's not a good thing either.

 

And I agree that it's not good just to shove questions into the background and never think about them. We don't grow without asking questions.

 

A very enlightening juxtaposition of concepts here. Bravo!

[VideoGameJunkie]

I had an episode of psychosis where I thought I died in June of 2013 and since then I've had doubts corrupt my mind on if there's really an afterlife, even though I know in my heart there is. But the brain plays tricks on the heart sometimes.

[mfbukowski]

Givens: Doubt is normal; it's necessary in order for faith to be a choice. Live with it, even celebrate it.

 

McGrath: Doubt is normal; it's is a consequence of the Fall. But don't let it fester.

 

Kierkegaard: Don't even try to resolve your doubts. You'll make things worse. Just get busy doing your hometeaching and distract yourself.

 

I like what Givens is doing and I hope it works. But I think McGrath's approach is better. We shouldn't be celebrating it. I also think that doubt can zap your motivation and your strength as you try to live a faithful life in practice. In that regard, Kierkegaard isn't 100% right either.

Yeah but you didn't get Mr. K right anyway.

 

And what about Wittgenstein?  To him doubt is a linguistic confusion.

[Tsuzuki]

Doubt means you are honest with yourself about not knowing everything. Celebrate that honesty.

[teddyaware]

I think you've really hit on something here.

 

In our haste to reassure people these days that doubts are a normal part of intellectual and spiritual development, we have almost elevated doubt to holy-grail status, and that's not a good thing either.

 

And I agree that it's not good just to shove questions into the background and never think about them. We don't grow without asking questions.

 

A very enlightening juxtaposition of concepts here. Bravo!

When I have time, I'm going to check to see whether or not there are any instances in the Standard Works where doubt, unbelief and lack of faith are ever spoken of in positive ways. At the moment I can think of none, but only seem to recall references that speak of doubt and lack of faith as negatives that need to be overcome. Should we celebrate lust, greed and dishonesty simply because they stand in opposition to chastity, unselfishness and honesty? It seems highly probable that the only positive thing about negative spiritual traits and behaviors is that our lives become more happy, enlightened and spiritually meaningful as we overcome them. Or has Givens discovered that the spiritual negative of doubt is an exception to the rule?

Edited August 26, 2014 by teddyaware

[Scott Lloyd]

Doubt means you are honest with yourself about not knowing everything. Celebrate that honesty.

A far better way to express it than "celebrate your doubts" in my opinion, with all due respect to Dr. Givens.

[Scott Lloyd]

When I have time, I'm going to check to see whether or not there are any instances in the Standard Works where doubt, unbelief and lack of faith are ever spoken of in positive ways. At the moment I can think of none, but only seem to recall references that speak of doubt and lack of faith as negatives that need to be overcome. Should we celebrate lust, greed and dishonesty simply because they stand in opposition to chastity, unselfishness and honesty? It seems highly probable that the only positive thing about negative spiritual traits and behaviors is that our lives become more happy, enlightened and spiritually meaningful when we overcome them. Or has Givens discovered that the spiritual negative of doubt is an exception to the rule?

Indeed.

 

"There must needs be opposition in all things," but we don't celebrate the opposition, but rather, the overcoming of it.

 

Christ said there must needs be offenses but wo to him by whom the offense cometh.

[wenglund]

Doubt means you are honest with yourself about not knowing everything. Celebrate that honesty.

 

To me, ignorance, or honesty about one's ignorance/doubt, isn't a cause for celebration, but a motive for progress. Rather, I reserve celebrations for things of great value to me, like when I become less ignorant and doubtful and more innovative and useful.

 

But, to each their own.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tsuzuki]

To me, ignorance, or honesty about one's ignorance/doubt, isn't a cause for celebration, but a motive for progress. Rather, I reserve celebrations for things of great value to me, like when I become less ignorant and doubtful and more innovative and useful.

 

But, to each their own.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Considering the frequency with which people lie to themselves about what they think they know, I would say that even a moment's break from that is cause for major celebration.

[Tsuzuki]

Truth can only be acquired when false thought patterns are broken up, and that requires doubt.

[Kenngo1969]

How can doubt zap your motivation and strength in you view? ...

Seriously?  If I doubt that something will be efficacious toward achieving its stated aim, you don't think that might affect my motivation to do it?

[Tsuzuki]

Seriously?  If I doubt that something will be efficacious toward achieving its stated aim, you don't think that might affect my motivation to do it?

So confirm or disconfirm your doubts. Don't just sit there doubting. It's a tool, not a trophy.

[wenglund]

Considering the frequency with which people lie to themselves about what they think they know, I would say that even a moment's break from that is cause for major celebration.

 

Some people chose to celebrate the limited darkness, while others chose to celebrate the limited light. Some people chose to celebrate the empty half of the epistemic glass, while others chose to celebrate the half part full.

 

As always, to each their own.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited August 26, 2014 by wenglund

[Tsuzuki]

Some people chose to celebrate the limited darkness, while others chose to celebrate the limited light. Some people chose to celebrate the empty half of the epistemic glass, while others chose to celebrate the half part full.

 

As always, to each their own.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

All of the above are cause for celebration.

[wenglund]

So confirm or disconfirm your doubts. Don't just sit there doubting. It's a tool, not a trophy.

 

Earlier you said we should celebrate that we have doubts, and yet now you are suggesting that doubts aren't a trophy. Since trophies are a form of celebration, I am confused about what you are saying.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tsuzuki]

Earlier you said we should celebrate that we have doubts, and yet now you are suggesting that doubts aren't a trophy. Since trophies are a form of celebration, I am confused about what you are saying.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

There are more ways to celebrating something than just turning it into a trophy.

[Senator]

Is faith inherently virtuous, and doubt inherently vice?

 

Does it matter what one is faithful to, or what one doubts?

 

Do we celebrate the faith of a man to evil ideals?

Do we castigate the man who doubts wicked ways?

[wenglund]

There are more ways to celebrating something than just turning it into a trophy.

 

To me, symbolically they are essentially one and the same, though not worth arguing over..Be proud and enjoy your trophy-less celebrations of your ignorance.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tsuzuki]

To me, symbolically they are essentially one and the same, though not worth arguing over..Be proud and enjoy your trophy-less celebrations of your ignorance.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

A trophy just sits there, whereas a tool is celebrated by actually using it.

[stemelbow]

If you believe something 100%, you do it with more energy.

 

We all face doubt in our lives.  If  bishop faces some doubts does he do a lesser job as bishop then at the moments he doesn't have doubts? 

 

What are we doing that doubt gets in the way?