Another One Bites the Dust

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, ERayR said:

I agree on that point but seems to be that a great many of those who "lose" their testimony blame someone else.  Why can't they just say I choose to believe differently?

I'm not blaming, I'm just sad that my bishop didn't reach out and try to help, but instead almost retreated.  He's now my SP, but I don't have any ill feelings, just a sense that I could have used the help, but he needed to reach out.  Because at the time, I worried his testimony would be affected if he knew subjects of my doubt.  

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, consiglieri said:

A friend of mine dropped by yesterday to say he didn't go to church today because it is just so boring, it makes him miserable.

On top of that, he gets guilted by family and friends telling him he needs to go to church because that is what God wants.

I told my friend that pretty much everybody knows church is boring and miserable, but they also know that they have to say it isn't in order to be considered righteous.

They don't really want my friend there for his benefit, but for their benefit, because it makes them feel better about their own participation.

The more people they can get to say how beautiful the emperor's new clothes are, the stronger their own beliefs become.

So, what you're saying is that anyone who doesn't find church boring and miserable is lying?

[Gray]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

So, what you're saying is that anyone who doesn't find church boring and miserable is lying?

That can't be true. There are, after all, people who seem to get a great thrill from stamp collecting. 

[Jeanne]

48 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You were responding to ERay. Did you think you were responding to me?

Edited to add: Since you use my name, and since you bring up the essays, I will reply that I have been in the Church for well over 40 years as well, and the essays didn't faze me.

 

Woops...I have a day off and stop and go..messed up.  Sorry!

[jkwilliams]

41 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

(2 Nephi 26:24-28)

Here's the thing. Clearly not everyone is meant to join the church in this lifetime, and the vast majority of humans will never have any exposure to Mormonism during their mortal lives. To me, this does not mean that God is ignoring them but that He is blessing them in their sphere of existence. As my wife says, Mother Teresa could not have accomplished what she did had she been a Latter-day Saint, but God was working through her. The scripture you quoted suggests that God wants all to return to Him, and that seems self-evident. What I am not sure of is that He wants all of us to follow exactly the same path. Even if the LDS church really is true, I don't think it rules out God's working with us as we traverse other paths than baptism as a Mormon.

[stemelbow]

12 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Here's the thing. Clearly not everyone is meant to join the church in this lifetime, and the vast majority of humans will never have any exposure to Mormonism during their mortal lives. To me, this does not mean that God is ignoring them but that He is blessing them in their sphere of existence. As my wife says, Mother Teresa could not have accomplished what she did had she been a Latter-day Saint, but God was working through her. The scripture you quoted suggests that God wants all to return to Him, and that seems self-evident. What I am not sure of is that He wants all of us to follow exactly the same path. Even if the LDS church really is true, I don't think it rules out God's working with us as we traverse other paths than baptism as a Mormon.

Some might find themselves a bit shocked when they find out God doesn't care at all if someone was LDS or not while walking in their mortal frames.  Telling ourselves that we know more than others, is really just us telling ourselves that for effect.  We don't.  We aren't given more.  We aren't more blessed.  We're pretenders on those fronts. 

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

We all know that in reality it was Huck who was pure-hearted and it was the slavery-embracing society that was in the wrong.

But in his innocence, Huck did not understand that. He thought that he was being wicked for wanting to protect Jim. And, he reasoned, if that was being wicked, he did not want to give up being wicked. So the point still stands that it was a matter of choice -- as it is with anyone. And that holds whether or not the gospel is true. You can't pray for a testimony and receive an answer if you really don't want the testimony.

Incidentally, here is the passage from Huckleberry Finn:

 

So, your recollection of Huck's desire being "to have fun" is incorrect, but your conclusion isn't. It wasn't me who needed to read my Huckleberry Finn. 

[consiglieri]

30 minutes ago, bluebell said:

So, what you're saying is that anyone who doesn't find church boring and miserable is lying?

I would never say anything that absolute, and I qualified it to my friend as well.

But I do believe that the majority of church-attending Mormons find church boring and miserable, but do not say so because of peer pressure.

Ask yourself this question, "Would you go to church for three-hours every Sunday if you had no obligation to do so, and only went because you enjoyed the experience?"

If you answer yes to this question, fine.

But I believe the majority of Mormons would answer it in the negative.

 

 

 

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

I would never say anything that absolute, and I qualified it to my friend as well.

But I do believe that the majority of church-attending Mormons find church boring and miserable, but do not say so because of peer pressure.

Ask yourself this question, "Would you go to church for three-hours every Sunday if you had no obligation to do so, and only went because you enjoyed the experience?"

If you answer yes to this question, fine.

But I believe the majority of Mormons would answer it in the negative.

Remember when the church was rumored to be cutting back to a two-hour Sunday block? Did you hear anyone lamenting the loss of the third hour? Neither did I. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by jkwilliams

[consiglieri]

5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Remember when the church was rumored to be cutting back to a two-hour Sunday block? Did you hear anyone lamenting the loss of the third hour? Neither did I. 

The problem at the heart of Mormonism's miserable meetings is that we don't have meetings because we have things to teach.

Rather, we teach things because we have meetings to fill.

[cinepro]

I was recently shocked to hear that one of my wife's relatives is on the verge of leaving the Church.  This is a seemingly rock-solid TBM from a family of TBMs; my wife is somewhat disturbed (more disturbed than even having to deal with my issues, and I'm her husband!)  

Learning about this person's disaffection has been quite alarming for me as well.  I know it's only one data point, but to me it feels like a huge red flag that things are much, much worse than I thought when it comes to people leaving the Church. 

[Gray]

5 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I was recently shocked to hear that one of my wife's relatives is on the verge of leaving the Church.  This is a seemingly rock-solid TBM from a family of TBMs; my wife is somewhat disturbed (more disturbed than even having to deal with my issues, and I'm her husband!)  

Learning about this person's disaffection has been quite alarming for me as well.  I know it's only one data point, but to me it feels like a huge red flag that things are much, much worse than I thought when it comes to people leaving the Church. 

I've seen a lot of it too. But I don't know how much of that is because I'm more connected to people on social media and am more aware of their status, or if there is really an uptick in people leaving. 

[ERayR]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

"Whether by ERayR's own voice or by the voice of Scott, it is the same."

In this instance it is but not always.

[Scott Lloyd]

58 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

So, your recollection of Huck's desire being "to have fun" is incorrect, but your conclusion isn't. It wasn't me who needed to read my Huckleberry Finn. 

I'll admit I was a bit murky on the plot details (it has been a while since I read the book) but having my memory refreshed does not change the principle and concept:. If something, whether you call itconscience or something else, is preventing you from even so much as wishing that the restored gospel is true, it's highly unlikely you will receive a sure witness. In any case, it boils down to a matter of desire or choice. As ERay has said, one ought to own his choice and not claim to be utterly powerless.

 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I'll admit I was a bit murky on the plot details (it has been a while since I read the book) but having my memory refreshed does not change the principle and concept:. If something, whether you call itconscience or something else, is preventing you from even so much as wishing that the restored gospel is true, it's highly unlikely you will receive a sure witness. In any case, it boils down to a matter of desire or choice. As ERay has said, one ought to own his choice and not claim to be utterly powerless.

I was talking about those who wish/want/hope/desperately desire to believe but ultimately find it impossible to believe. It's not a personal failing to acknowledge that some things don't merit belief. 

And before you take offense, I note that what merits belief differs for each person. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Here's the thing. Clearly not everyone is meant to join the church in this lifetime, and the vast majority of humans will never have any exposure to Mormonism during their mortal lives. To me, this does not mean that God is ignoring them but that He is blessing them in their sphere of existence. As my wife says, Mother Teresa could not have accomplished what she did had she been a Latter-day Saint, but God was working through her. The scripture you quoted suggests that God wants all to return to Him, and that seems self-evident. What I am not sure of is that He wants all of us to follow exactly the same path. Even if the LDS church really is true, I don't think it rules out God's working with us as we traverse other paths than baptism as a Mormon.

I will accept this only insofar as it does not nullify the principle of agency. If God directs us toward Him via differing paths, maybe it's because, in His mercy, He is accounting for our unwise use of agency. He can create optimum conditions, but in the end He will "force no man to heaven" as the hymn states.

Again, it's a matter of choice. And if it be true that God will force no one to heaven, a corollary is certainly that God will force no one to reject Him -- or the gateway by which one comes to Him, which is baptism by immersion by one having the proper authority.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[jkwilliams]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I will accept this only insofar as it does not nullify the principle of agency. If God directs us toward Him via differing paths, maybe it's because, in His mercy, He is accounting for our unwise use of agency. He can create optimum conditions, but in the end He will "force no man to heaven" as the hymn states.

Again, it's a matter of choice. And if it be true that God will force no one to heaven, a corollary is certainly that God will force no one to reject Him -- or the gateway by which one comes to Him, which is baptism by immersion by one having the proper authority.

I used to believe as you do, but it was my wife who convinced me that our purpose in life is to learn God's will for us and do it, and sometimes His will isn't that we join the church. God's purposes are much bigger than one church. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by jkwilliams

[Scott Lloyd]

14 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I used to believe as you do, but it was my wife who convinced me that our purpose in life is to learn God's will for us and do it, and sometimes His will isn't that we join the church. God's purposes are much bigger than one church. 

The "one church" is the one God has provided as the instrument to bring about His eternal purposes for the human family. You may disbelieve that, but if you do it is a matter of choice and agency. 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

The "one church" is the one God has provided as the instrument to bring about His eternal purposes for the human family. You may disbelieve that, but if you do it is a matter of choice and agency. 

If the church is true, it is not limited to mortality. There is nothing in my wife's belief that is incompatible with the church being the instrument by which God brings about His purposes. 

[Bernard Gui]

19 hours ago, readstoomuch said:

So today, for the seventh time in the last three years a member of my ward has announced they no longer believe.  This sister is a returned missionary and told me she doesn't believe  Joseph Smith was a prophet and especially has First Vision questions.  She said today will be her last day going to church.  She told quite a few people besides me and I really didn't get to have much of a conversation with her.  Social issues were also brought up.  

Of these seven, 2 are women, the rest men.  The other woman removed her name, but comes to Church sometimes.  One of them men comes to church every week.  Another sometimes.  The others stopped coming to church, two of them being quite angry.  I have had at least something of a discussion with all of them.  My ability to make a difference or help?  Not very much.  

We should not be surprised, though we may be sad. The Tree of Life vision, the parable of the sower, and multiple General Authority prophecies plainly warn and prepare us for this. The best we can do is keep our own noses clean. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[readstoomuch]

3 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

So her last day at Church was to seek out others in an effort to destroy their faith, or to find others that would confirm her doubts. How did "social issues" lead her to dismiss Joseph Smith being a Prophet? He is not here to speak to any social issues of today...or is it the social issues that brought her to this point? Because many cannot stand up to public pressure and changing social issues, they fear the "arm of flesh" (ridicule)...the very thing all scriptures warns against, especially the BoM, those who point the finger laughing in scorn, causing others to be ashamed. I did not know Wards kept up with the numbers of those who left and made it available to members. I guess I am behind the curve, but I would never refer to someone as sad as members leaving the Church with "another one bites the dust"...I would weep instead...I do weep. 

Wards keep track of them when the people have talked to the members or the bishop has asked them to speak to me.  Then when it happens yet again I go back and start adding it up and wondering what is going on.  That is how the ward keeps track of it.  

[readstoomuch]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Remember when the church was rumored to be cutting back to a two-hour Sunday block? Did you hear anyone lamenting the loss of the third hour? Neither did I. 

I find the gospel quite interesting.  I think sometimes the meetings are not used as effectively as they could be and that is sad.  Some of those people are still learning and growing, so I can give them that.  I am in primary right now and I find it pretty fun.  If the kids are engaged I think they have fun also.  

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I was talking about those who wish/want/hope/desperately desire to believe but ultimately find it impossible to believe. It's not a personal failing to acknowledge that some things don't merit belief. 

And before you take offense, I note that what merits belief differs for each person. 

I can only repeat what I said earlier, that as long as there is no slam dunk either way (and there is not), whether or not to believe -- or even  to wish it were true strongly enough that one will persist in seeking -- is a matter of personal choice.

[Scott Lloyd]

53 minutes ago, readstoomuch said:

I find the gospel quite interesting.  I think sometimes the meetings are not used as effectively as they could be and that is sad.  Some of those people are still learning and growing, so I can give them that.  I am in primary right now and I find it pretty fun.  If the kids are engaged I think they have fun also.  

I believe it was Elder Maxwell who said that we are one another's clinical material. So if it's true that "some ... people are still learning and growing," if we give them space and time to do that during Sabbath day worship services, I'm not convinced it can truly be said that the meetings are not used effectively. Part of aspiring to be a Zion society is learning to have patience with one another.

Edited to add:

Here's the precise quote from Elder Maxwell:

 

Quote

 

Likewise, unremembered by some is the reality that in the kingdom we are each other’s clinical material; the Lord allows us to practice on each other, even in our imperfections. And each of us knows what it is like to be worked on by a “student” rather than a senior surgeon. Each of us, however unintentionally, has also inflicted some pain.

 

 

Edited June 14, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

If the church is true, it is not limited to mortality. There is nothing in my wife's belief that is incompatible with the church being the instrument by which God brings about His purposes. 

For the second time now, you have made reference to your wife having convinced you of something. I've said I will not abide a personalizing of the discussion, and if you persist in doing so, I will summarily end the conversation.