Changing Paradigms- A Must-Read Essay About Faith Crisis

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

Her angst and perplexity seems to be the result of being unsuccessful in finding a way to harmonize the teachings of the Church with the philosophies of men. Never gonna work...

The scriptures themselves are the philosophies of men.  Who do you think wrote them?  Inspired HUMANS with their minds full of .....the philosophies of men.  They are unavoidable.  Language itself carries culture- and therefore philosophy - with it.  

One cannot have a testimony of philosophy- that I know for a fact.  But one can have a testimony of what God teaches.  THAT is the difference- testimony.

We do not believe in scriptural infallibility.

Fideism is the answer to this perceived conflict.  http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fideism/

[flameburns623]

MFBukowski: thanks for this.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Think I'll pass.

I've never been enlightened or edified in reading Gina Colvin's musings, and I don't expect that to change now. 

I am not familiar with her writings.  It kind of surprised me because the beginning is SO "anti" and really I think on a superficial level, it was surprising that such a person could find anything positive about the church at all.

[The Nehor]

16 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

For some.

It is a re-definition of how they see the church, to be sure, but it works.

Works in what sense?

It might make her happier in some way which is all well and good but that is not the kind of devotion that leads to exaltation by any scripture I have ever read. The faith that brought the pioneers across the plains or moved mountains or opened the veil to see God this is clearly not.

Maybe it will lead to something better but yeah....not seeing this as a fantastic positive step.

11 hours ago, Teancum said:

For her it is.  Does she have to fit your paradigm?

I would be okay with just fitting a basic scriptural paradigm. I am not sure how to set the paradigm bar that low? Or is she trying to limbo?

[Mars]

i'm glad she's found her way back.  i hope she progresses.

[Rain]

On Saturday, March 26, 2016 at 9:09 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

I agree. I like the essay and appreciate the work Gina does on the A Thoughtful Faith podcast.

If everyone in Mormonism accepted doctrine as flexible and were permitted to find their own way within the church I think there would be far fewer Faith Crisis'. But for many of us we experience a form of shunning within our congregations and even families if we don't hold to a very specific Mormon creed. Once we are able to feel comfortable in our own skin, with our own testimony (whether it is in or out of the orthodox box), and with the possibility of social shunning, then things become less of a crisis and more of a faith development.

I have always been very frustrated with the shunning idea. There are some obvious cases of it and those are totally wrong.  Most times I find it to be poor communication or members pulling away when they feel attacked,  which isn't shunning. 

However,  last night Sister Esplin talked of seeing others through a window instead of a mirror.  I can't say that I world agree and it will differ with every case,  but would you share more about your experience with shunning so I can see YOU?  Even if it is only miscommunication there are things that can be learned so that those in your place can feel love from those in my place as this woman felt.  

Edited March 27, 2016 by Rain

[Senator]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Works in what sense?

It might make her happier in some way which is all well and good but that is not the kind of devotion that leads to exaltation by any scripture I have ever read. The faith that brought the pioneers across the plains or moved mountains or opened the veil to see God this is clearly not.

Maybe it will lead to something better but yeah....not seeing this as a fantastic positive step.

I would be okay with just fitting a basic scriptural paradigm. I am not sure how to set the paradigm bar that low? Or is she trying to limbo?

I hope her hometeachers do not share your mindset.

[JulieM]

14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I am not familiar with her writings.  It kind of surprised me because the beginning is SO "anti" and really I think on a superficial level, it was surprising that such a person could find anything positive about the church at all.

I didn't see any "anti" in what she wrote (maybe I missed it?), I just see raw emotion and complete honesty.  I would imagine many can relate to how she felt and also why she decided to return.

Thank you for sharing this and posting the link!

Edited March 27, 2016 by JulieM

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Works in what sense?

It might make her happier in some way which is all well and good but that is not the kind of devotion that leads to exaltation by any scripture I have ever read. The faith that brought the pioneers across the plains or moved mountains or opened the veil to see God this is clearly not.

Maybe it will lead to something better but yeah....not seeing this as a fantastic positive step.

I would be okay with just fitting a basic scriptural paradigm. I am not sure how to set the paradigm bar that low? Or is she trying to limbo?

I am not her judge of what is or is not "enough" for her to reach exaltation or that that is even her goal, OR if she believes that is possible

Happier works just fine for me.  

Unlike some, I have not seen God yet so I am not an authority on what that takes, nor do I think she is planning a 2000 mile walk.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Rain said:

I have always been very frustrated with the shunning idea. There are some obvious cases of it and those are totally wrong.  Most times I find it to be poor communication or members pulling away when they feel attacked,  which isn't shunning. 

However,  last night Sister Esplin talked of seeing others through a window instead of a mirror.  I can't say that I world agree and it will differ with every case,  but would you share more about your experience with shunning so I can see YOU?  Even if it is only miscommunication there are things that can be learned so that those in your place can feel love from those in my place as this woman felt.  

As one learns more about the gospel, I think that some may get prideful and take on an attitude that they are "better" than others who are stupid and believe in a global flood or that prophets will never lead us astray etc.  They make comments to their families, and comment in sunday school etc, and people pick up on it quickly.  We see it on this board when someone new comes on and speaks to us as if we are dummies, when in fact it is they who know little about the church.

Yes, as you say, they feel attacked, we feel attacked and I think rightly so,  and so they stop talking to the person they see as the "attacker" and metphorically or really put them on "ignore", and then the attacker feels shunned.

The funny part about all this is that it is never appropriate to put down another person's paradigm when you often cannot justify your own paradigm when push comes to shove.  I personally do not believe in a global flood, and do believe in evolution.  I feel this is intellectually justifiable and for a time felt "superior" to those who could not see how obvious this position was.

I think this prideful step is just a step along the path and is a stage many go through

But when I realized that I could not prove that there WAS no global flood, nor that evolution was the absolute "truth", I suddenly realized that in the long run, though my paradigm was more "scientific" it still had no bearing on "what really happened" because that was unknowable. 

Though there is more evidence for a non-global flood, ultimately it is unknowable if there was one or not.

Could a divine person we postulate from the beginning to be infinitely more powerful than we personally are, actually construct the world in 6 days?   How could I prove that impossible?  Of course I could not.  I must confess that I even felt at one point that the General Authorities just needed "more education" to see where they were going "wrong".

So carrying this idea that all we have are paradigms which we have constructed which work for a while to give us satisfactory answers to specific questions, I realized that MY wonderful "intellectual" paradigm was at the bottom line, no better than  a Bible literalist paradigm in answering the ultimate questions of life-  who I am , why I am, and where I am going.  Evolution has nothing to do with that, either way, and neither does the global flood have anything to do with answering those ultimate questions.

It literally didn't matter either way!!  I had all this education in philosophy and could out-argue most, but I still had no answers!

Suddenly the pride left.  Suddenly I realized I was as dumb as everyone else about those ultimate questions, and the only tool I had was the same tool they had- the spirit!

So I think a little knowledge can be a bad thing, but the more you study, the less you find you really know.  You learn that reason has its limits, and that we are all equal before God in the long run to find our answers through the spirit.  Intellect and education has nothing to do with it- a pure heart has everything to do with it.

There is no reason to attack others for their lack of knowledge because on the important things in life, we all come into this world with all the tools we need- and that is the spirit.

There is no reason to feel "superior" to anyone on a true quest to find God.

The challenge is using the tools God has given us, and understanding that we are all in this boat together.

Edited March 27, 2016 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, JulieM said:

I didn't see any "anti" in what she wrote (maybe I missed it?), I just see raw emotion and complete honesty.  I would imagine many can relate to how she felt and also why she decided to return.

Thank you for sharing this and posting the link!

Fair enough- I meant it seemed like she was hitting all the "standard objections" we hear every day around here.  I was speaking about the arguments being made, not their emotional strength.

[Ginger Snaps]

On March 26, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

I have always loved this facet of the endowment!

Authorised prophets are essential: they bring us to Christ, introduce us to Him, and even commend us to Him. But their goal in all they do is to bring us to 'personal interaction with the divine'.

Yes. In "Planted", Patrick Mason describes them as "beacons" pointing the way to Christ. I love that symbology, in part because, for me, it sort of takes the struggle out of the idea that none of them are infallible.  Even if I'm struggling with one of the Q15 or something they've said--maybe that beacon isn't shining as brightly for me in that moment, but there are still 14 others lighting the way at any given time. 

Edited March 28, 2016 by Ginger Snaps

[ttribe]

On 3/26/2016 at 3:41 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

Think I'll pass.

I've never been enlightened or edified in reading Gina Colvin's musings, and I don't expect that to change now. 

I think I'll just leave this here:

 

[flameburns623]

I befriended Gina Colvin on Facebook and got a post today which seemed rather cynical about the Resurrection:

On this Easter weekend I feel the need to confess that I find the idea of resurrection unconvincing.

I suppose musings like that might be off-putting to some.

[Senator]

22 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I think I'll just leave this here:

 

I'm quite certain that we will soon be instructed on how the one is not like the other.

[mfbukowski]

57 minutes ago, flameburns623 said:

I befriended Gina Colvin on Facebook and got a post today which seemed rather cynical about the Resurrection:

 

 

I suppose musings like that might be off-putting to some.

What is a little weird is that of course it is "unconvincing".  It is supposed to be impossible!  No one comes back from the dead.

That's the whole point!!!  Either you have a testimony of it or you don't!

[pogi]

21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

So I think a little knowledge can be a bad thing, but the more you study, the less you find you really know.  You learn that reason has its limits, and that we are all equal before God in the long run to find our answers through the spirit.  Intellect and education has nothing to do with it- a pure heart has everything to do with it.

There is no reason to attack others for their lack of knowledge because on the important things in life, we all come into this world with all the tools we need- and that is the spirit.

There is no reason to feel "superior" to anyone on a true quest to find God.

The challenge is using the tools God has given us, and understanding that we are all in this boat together.

Amen brother!  That is one of the best posts I have read in a while! 

Now...I think I have some repenting to do. 

[mfbukowski]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

Amen brother!  That is one of the best posts I have read in a while! 

Now...I think I have some repenting to do. 

I wrote that mostly for me!

[pogi]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I wrote that mostly for me!

One never knows the influence they will have on another. 

[Scott Lloyd]

ttribe, at long last, let it go.

It can hardly be healthy to bear a grudge this long, and it must be burdensome to you.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

What is a little weird is that of course it is "unconvincing".  It is supposed to be impossible!  No one comes back from the dead.

That's the whole point!!!  Either you have a testimony of it or you don't!

Quote

17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

Alma 32:17-18

Edited March 28, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[ttribe]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

ttribe, at long last, let it go.

It can hardly be healthy to bear a grudge this long, and it must be burdensome to you.

Ha!  I knew I'd get something like that in response.  That's not at all how this came to mind, but I'm quite sure I can't convince you otherwise so I'll just let it go at that.

[Scott Lloyd]

13 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Ha!  I knew I'd get something like that in response.  That's not at all how this came to mind, but I'm quite sure I can't convince you otherwise so I'll just let it go at that.

Good. In so doing, you can heed the admonition given by Ares in that thread from last August to be a grownup.

 

[ttribe]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Good. In so doing, you can heed the admonition given by Ares in that thread from last August to be a grownup.

 

[eyeroll] Just had to get one last dig in,eh, Scott?  But, hey, I'm the one with the grudge, right?

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, ttribe said:

[eyeroll] Just had to get one last dig in,eh, Scott?  But, hey, I'm the one with the grudge, right?

You're the one who saved it and waited 7 months to use it.