Terryl Givens Vs. Alister Mcgrath On Doubt

[stemelbow]

See my post above. Doubts can be healthy when they motivate us to diminish the doubts and progress in faith and knowledge, just as pain is healthy when it motivates us to reliving the pain and progress in peace and joy. So, in this sense it is positive.

 

However, doubts, as with pain, become unhealthy or negative when they predominate and/or stop being a motivation towards growth in faith and knowledge and joy, and become instead ends in themselves.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

That's what I'm wanting to get at.  Doubts are necessary for our own growth, motivation as strength.  Surely we must learn and know how to best approach and use our doubts.  But in this way, I get why we should celebrate our doubts. 

 

Says Paul:

 

Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

 5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.

 6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

--2 Cor. 1

and says James:

My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into diverstemptations;

 3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

 4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfectand entire, wanting nothing.

--James 1

[Scott Lloyd]

That's what I'm wanting to get at.  Doubts are necessary for our own growth, motivation as strength.  Surely we must learn and know how to best approach and use our doubts.  But in this way, I get why we should celebrate our doubts. 

 

Says Paul:

 

 

--2 Cor. 1

and says James:

 

--James 1

The Joseph Smith Translation changes "divers temptations" to "many afflictions." I prefer that rendition over what's in the KJV.

 

But that is beside the point, in any case.  I think it's wrongheaded to draw from this that we are to glory or take pleasure in the afflictions themselves; rather we should take joy in overcoming the afflictions, or perhaps in the opportunity to grow and gain strength from overcoming them.

 

As I've said, I believe I get what Givens is saying; I just think there are better ways of saying it than "celebrate your doubts."

Edited August 27, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[DBMormon]

A wise man once said  ""After you have doubted all that is doubtable, all that is left is certainty""

[VideoGameJunkie]

Has anyone else ever doubted creationism and thought that evolution could be right and there is no afterlife? I struggled with that doubt because of science. Grrr

[Calm]

I believe God used evolution to organize human bodies for his children as well as physical vessels for other types of spirits.

And I most deeply believe in an afterlife.

It does not have to be a choice between believing in God and an afterlife and evolution or any other aspect of science.

[VideoGameJunkie]

But when did the dinosaurs live? Before or after Adam and Eve? How long were Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden? Maybe they were in there for billions of years while the dinosaurs and ice ages came and went before they took the apple.

[Calm]

I believe the dinosaurs came and went long before any humans or human like beings appeared. I believe there was a very long creation/organizing/evolving set of periods (often translated or referred to as "days") that eventually led to the presence of human groups on earth, at which time God set aside a sacred place for the first covenant people, Adam and Eve to dwell in (the garden). How long they were there and how literal or symbolic their story is in the scriptures and temple, I don't know. What matters to me is God set them apart for their mission, which they performed and thus allowed the plan of salvation to continue in mortality for us all.

Edited August 28, 2014 by calmoriah

[VideoGameJunkie]

Well said cal, that does make sense. There are so many atheists and doubters of religion out there because of science and them saying they can't go together. It's good to see ways religion and science work together.

[Scott Lloyd]

A wise man once said  ""After you have doubted all that is doubtable, all that is left is certainty""

I don't know who the wise man was, but I don't find this very useful.

Often what is doubted are verities, and the deficiency is in the doubter, not the thing being doubted.

Of course, it may be that I just don't understand the quote or its context.

[Nofear]

Often doubts are because of limitations of the mortals to see or believe the possible options.

 

As Spock said, "An ancestor of mine maintained that when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

[stemelbow]

I don't know who the wise man was, but I don't find this very useful.

Often what is doubted are verities, and the deficiency is in the doubter, not the thing being doubted.

Of course, it may be that I just don't understand the quote or its context.

Things being doubted can be deficient as well. Of course the doubter is deficient in some way, we all are. But we can blame the doubter particularly when the thing being doubted and the process of doubting enlightens the doubter and others.

I like the quote.

[Scott Lloyd]

Things being doubted can be deficient as well.

But very often they are not. I'm talking here about verities.

 

Of course the doubter is deficient in some way, we all are. But we can blame the doubter particularly when the thing being doubted and the process of doubting enlightens the doubter and others.

 

The "process of doubting" is just as apt to cause the doubter to reject truth. We see that happen a lot.

 

It could go either way; I just don't see doubt as inherently virtuous.

 

I like the quote.

 

Again, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But perhaps I need to have the quote and its context clarified.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[wenglund]

A wise man once said  ""After you have doubted all that is doubtable, all that is left is certainty""

 

Another wise man once said: "Doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith." (see HERE)

 

From my experience, people who tend to celebrate doubt, often do so exclusively in relation to doubting faith, while neglecting the more important aspect of doubting their doubts.

 

To me, a very good test of whether doubt is of value or not is conditioned upon whether doubt, or rather the extent to which and the way in which doubt is employed, results in progression or stagnation or digression. Failing to doubt one's doubts is at high risk of resulting in the latter. This seems no more evident to me than in the too frequent loss of redeeming faith in God and his elevating gospel.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Scott Lloyd]

Another wise man once said: "Doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith." (see HERE)

 

According to the footnote, President Uchtdorf was quoting (or paraphrasing) F. F. Bosworth, Christ the Healer.

 

But in the very next sentence, President Uchtdorf went on to say something just as choice, in my view:

 

We must never allow doubt to hold us prisoner and keep us from the divine love, peace, and gifts that come through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

This is why I say doubt is not inherently virtuous. Yes, it could be part of a process of gaining greater understanding and wisdom. But it likewise could do the above.

[Jeanne]

How boring the world would be if we all didn't have doubts..without doubts, no questions, without questions, there is no learning.

[Stormin' Mormon]

Givens thoughts on doubt and faith are a primary reason that I am still active in the Church, so perhaps my views are biased.

 

It seems to me, though, that when Givens talks about doubt, he uses the word not as the opposite of faith, but as the condition which enables faith.  Between the two extremes of certainty (certainty of A, and certainty of Not A), there exists a whole world of uncertainty.  It is only in this world of uncertainty that faith can exist (faith is not to have a perfect knowledge as Alma explains). 

 

It is in this world of uncertainty, the only environment in which faith can even exist, that we are free to choose what we will believe, and in that choosing, we make manifest who we are and what we value.  It is this choice that Givens celebrates, not the doubt itself. 

 

Givens' overall message, then, is that doubt should not be a reason to leave the church.  Doubt is in fact a necessary precursor to faith. 

 

"I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief, for only in these conditions of equilibrium and balance, equally “enticed by the one or the other,” is my heart truly free to choose belief or cynicism, faith or faithlessness. Under these conditions, what I choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who I am and what I love.” From Givens' entry on Mormonscholarstestify.com

Edited August 28, 2014 by Stormin' Mormon

[wenglund]

How boring the world would be if we all didn't have doubts..without doubts, no questions, without questions, there is no learning.

 

Is anyone here suggesting a world without doubts?

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Scott Lloyd]

Is anyone here suggesting a world without doubts?

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

In fact, Peter & Gordon vowed:

 

I don't care what they say,

I won't stay,

In a world without doubts.

 

Oh, wait! That was "world without love."

Edited September 2, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Givens thoughts on doubt and faith are a primary reason that I am still active in the Church, so perhaps my views are biased.

 

It seems to me, though, that when Givens talks about doubt, he uses the word not as the opposite of faith, but as the condition which enables faith.  Between the two extremes of certainty (certainty of A, and certainty of Not A), there exists a whole world of uncertainty.  It is only in this world of uncertainty that faith can exist (faith is not to have a perfect knowledge as Alma explains). 

 

It is in this world of uncertainty, the only environment in which faith can even exist, that we are free to choose what we will believe, and in that choosing, we make manifest who we are and what we value.  It is this choice that Givens celebrates, not the doubt itself. 

 

Givens' overall message, then, is that doubt should not be a reason to leave the church.  Doubt is in fact a necessary precursor to faith. 

 

"I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief, for only in these conditions of equilibrium and balance, equally “enticed by the one or the other,” is my heart truly free to choose belief or cynicism, faith or faithlessness. Under these conditions, what I choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who I am and what I love.” From Givens' entry on Mormonscholarstestify.com

At long last, I'm wondering if questions might be a better term than doubts, as in "celebrate your questions."

 

It conveys essentially the intended message -- as I understand it -- with a more neutral connotation.

 

By the way, I've noticed the above quote from Givens before, and I find it striking that he speaks of belief being a choice: "What I choose to embrace," etc.

 

This catches my attention, because I've been criticized before for saying essentially the same thing and for suggesting that belief -- or disbelief -- is a choice.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Tacenda]

http://mormonstories.org/fiona-and-terryl-givens-and-the-crucible-of-doubt/

 

This is the latest podcast on MS.  I've just started listening. 

[Hamilton Porter]

Terryl Givens is my most-read author, but I think I'll skip this one and just read Dostoyevsky, from whom the title originates.

[Hamilton Porter]

http://mormonstories.org/fiona-and-terryl-givens-and-the-crucible-of-doubt/

 

This is the latest podcast on MS.  I've just started listening. 

 

Yeah I cannot empathize with the Mormon stories community. "If I were you I'd feel slighted and offended..." Deseret wouldn't carry you book, John says to Terryl. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

[Hamilton Porter]

Givens says most we can't prove most important things in like via reason. Now he is converging with McGrath.

[Hamilton Porter]

But Givens does not acknowledge that science is awesome as what it does. OK, Dehlin is making him say it. Now Givens is saying it. That's the most useful question Dehlin has ever asked in his whole life.

[Tacenda]

Well, I think the Given's would disagree with you. Fiona mentions she hopes the church provides a big tent for people that have questions or doubt, which would include alot of MS fans.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Tacenda