Another One Bites the Dust

[ERayR]

13 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Wow, I'd sure have appreciated someone like you. Kudos to you!!  I guarantee you've made a difference, I hope more on this board that are TBM do the same.  I often wonder if my bishop had done more to help or even asked someone in the ward like you, to help, if I'd be like Country Boy right now.

When are you going to realize that it is not up to your Bishop or anybody else except yourself.  The place you are in is because of your choices.  If you want to be in a different place the make the decisions that will get you there.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, ERayR said:

When are you going to realize that it is not up to your Bishop or anybody else except yourself.  The place you are in is because of your choices.  If you want to be in a different place the make the decisions that will get you there.

That's true, but, as Twain said, you can't pray a lie. You can't choose to believe something you honestly don't believe. At least I can't.

[ERayR]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

How would one do that? Are you suggesting people can and should merely decide to set aside all their issues and believe anyway? I don't think that works, most of the time. Or are you saying we should just start labeling anyone who disagrees with us as "negative" and therefore ignore whatever they have to say?

No but I will say people can and do decide what the want to and do believe.  There is always ample evidence to find and accept alternative explanations to the information causing their issues.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, ERayR said:

No but I will say people can and do decide what the want to and do believe.  There is always ample evidence to find and accept alternative explanations to the information causing their issues.

Sure, but at some point, what you want to believe may not align with what you can believe. If it were just a matter of choosing to accept alternative explanations, I'd be right there with you. 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

For some people, it's not enough just to want to believe.

The point of this scriptural passage is that it is quite enough to begin the process.

Quote

And of course, not everyone finds that participation in the LDS church is "good."

To each his own. But the parable of the sower comes to mind. (And before you start, don't personalize this, as you are wont to do, and claim I am insulting you by comparing you to barren soil.)

[ERayR]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Yep. I've had countless people tell me why I left the church, but very few who were actually interesting in hearing my reasons. People assume we're just "patty-cake, taffy pull" lazy folks who, for whatever reason, couldn't hack it as church members. How exactly does that kind of labeling help anyone want to return to activity?

I don't believe that about you at all but I do think you are a person capable of making your own decisions about what you want to and do believe.  You are also capable, and as far as I can see, do own your decisions.  Some do not but try to make somebody else responsible for their decisions.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Sure, but at some point, what you want to believe may not align with what you can believe. If it were just a matter of choosing to accept alternative explanations, I'd be right there with you. 

If  there is no slam dunk either way, then it is, in fact, a matter of choice.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, ERayR said:

I don't believe that about you at all but I do think you are a person capable of making your own decisions about what you want to and do believe.  You are also capable, and as far as I can see, do own your decisions.  Some do not but try to make somebody else responsible for their decisions.

My point wasn't so much about me personally but about how easy it seems to be for people to assign reasons why others leave the church instead of actually listening and finding out what the issues are. Saying one is "furious" with people who "bail" and labeling them as whiners and taffy-pullers, etc., helps no one. Does such rhetoric suggest a desire to help people come back? Not to me it doesn't.

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The point of this scriptural passage is that it is quite enough to begin the process.

To each his own. But the parable of the sower comes to mind. (And before you start, don't personalize this, as you are wont to do, and claim I am insulting you by comparing you to barren soil.)

I'm not personalizing this. I'm just saying it doesn't work for everyone. Clearly it doesn't.

[Gray]

9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Sure, but at some point, what you want to believe may not align with what you can believe. If it were just a matter of choosing to accept alternative explanations, I'd be right there with you. 

Exactly so. We cannot chose to believe in things that strike us as false. What strikes us as true or false will depend on a number of factors that are not strictly within our voluntary control. There may be a range of things that we can choose to believe in, but that range will not cover every possible belief. 

[ERayR]

14 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

That's true, but, as Twain said, you can't pray a lie. You can't choose to believe something you honestly don't believe. At least I can't.

But it may not be a lie.  That is the point.  It is only so from your POV.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

We are losing some of our best.  I guess it may be considered prophesied, no?  Does that mean we can't do anything about it?  I don't think so.  There have always been good people who leave and will continue to be many good people who leave.  We think that it effects their eternity, and it might even in a good way, at least some of the time.  Maybe it's not so sad a thing as we like to think.  Whatever the case, we'd be wise to get a better feel for why people are leaving.  Maybe it's more us, the Church, that needs fixing. 

The prophecy, as I understand it, is that some of the elect will be deceived. I don't recall a component of that prophecy being that they will be deceived because the church of God "needs fixing."

Edited June 13, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[jkwilliams]

Just now, ERayR said:

But it may not be a lie.  That is the point.  It is only so from your POV.

The lie is saying "I believe" when you clearly do not, not that the gospel is a lie.

[ERayR]

3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

My point wasn't so much about me personally but about how easy it seems to be for people to assign reasons why others leave the church instead of actually listening and finding out what the issues are. Saying one is "furious" with people who "bail" and labeling them as whiners and taffy-pullers, etc., helps no one. Does such rhetoric suggest a desire to help people come back? Not to me it doesn't.

I agree on that point but seems to be that a great many of those who "lose" their testimony blame someone else.  Why can't they just say I choose to believe differently?

[consiglieri]

3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

For some people, it's not enough just to want to believe. And of course, not everyone finds that participation in the LDS church is "good."

A friend of mine dropped by yesterday to say he didn't go to church today because it is just so boring, it makes him miserable.

On top of that, he gets guilted by family and friends telling him he needs to go to church because that is what God wants.

I told my friend that pretty much everybody knows church is boring and miserable, but they also know that they have to say it isn't in order to be considered righteous.

They don't really want my friend there for his benefit, but for their benefit, because it makes them feel better about their own participation.

The more people they can get to say how beautiful the emperor's new clothes are, the stronger their own beliefs become.

[ERayR]

9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

The lie is saying "I believe" when you clearly do not, not that the gospel is a lie.

I'm not asking anyone to say they believe when they don't.  What I am asking is for them to own their decisions.

[consiglieri]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Thanks, I didn't know how to answer why I'm not Country Boy now.  I should have phrased my post better.  

 

To paraphrase the late great John Denver, "Thank God you're not Country Boy!" 

 

[jkwilliams]

9 minutes ago, ERayR said:

I agree on that point but seems to be that a great many of those who "lose" their testimony blame someone else.  Why can't they just say I choose to believe differently?

Some people feel they were lied to or deceived, so it's natural they would blame those they believe lied to them. 

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, ERayR said:

I'm not asking anyone to say they believe when they don't.  What I am asking is for them to own their decisions.

I was just clarifying what I mean. You said "it may not be a lie," which I interpreted as meaning that the gospel isn't a lie. I may have misunderstood. In my view, it's always a lie when you say you believe something that you really don't believe. 

[jkwilliams]

10 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

To paraphrase the late great John Denver, "Thank God you're not Country Boy!" 

You're so negative.

[smac97]

14 hours ago, readstoomuch said:

So today, for the seventh time in the last three years a member of my ward has announced they no longer believe.  This sister is a returned missionary and told me she doesn't believe  Joseph Smith was a prophet and especially has First Vision questions.  She said today will be her last day going to church.  She told quite a few people besides me and I really didn't get to have much of a conversation with her.  Social issues were also brought up.  

Of these seven, 2 are women, the rest men.  The other woman removed her name, but comes to Church sometimes.  One of them men comes to church every week.  Another sometimes.  The others stopped coming to church, two of them being quite angry.  I have had at least something of a discussion with all of them.  My ability to make a difference or help?  Not very much.  

I wonder if John 6 may be helpful, at least to some extent:

Quote

 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

 48 I am that bread of life.

 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

 52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

 59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

 60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 66 ¶ From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

The day will come described in Mosiah 27:

Quote

 30 {H}e will come, and {} he remembereth every creature of his creating, he will make himself manifest unto all.

 31 Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God...

However, until that day, the agency of the individual carries the day.  Each day.  Family members and friends and priesthood leaders can invite and exhort and be living examples, but each of us must be given space.  Sadly, some of us will use that space to "{g}o back" and "{walk} no more with him."  And some of those will eventually return.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Jeanne, it's not your fault, and you did what you felt was right in your gut, I'm assuming.  I believe you and so many others have that inner struggle.  One reason we can't leave the church alone.  And those that leave or resign from the church were some of the most stalwart in the church.  If you were willy nilly I doubt you would have resigned.  You might have just became inactive and probably could care less about the church.  Hopefully I'm not over stepping with all my guessing here.  

You are right.  At the time, I was going through a repentance process with a RS position and ready to be sealed to my husband. It was a ripple effect that I found out things ..and no one could answer!  A difficult time for sure..but I did try and did not take my decision lightlyI

[Scott Lloyd]

49 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm not personalizing this. I'm just saying it doesn't work for everyone. Clearly it doesn't.

It doesn't work for everyone, because not everyone is willing to do as the scriptural analogy directs. That is a no-brainer.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

It doesn't work for everyone, because not everyone is willing to do as the scriptural analogy directs. That is a no-brainer.

It also doesn't work for everyone who is willing to do as the scriptural analogy directs. That is a no-brainier, unless we presume to judge everyone who was ever exposed to the word. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

That's true, but, as Twain said, you can't pray a lie. You can't choose to believe something you honestly don't believe. At least I can't.

 

50 minutes ago, ERayR said:

But it may not be a lie.  That is the point.  It is only so from your POV.

 

49 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

The lie is saying "I believe" when you clearly do not, not that the gospel is a lie.

If you go back and check the source of your Mark Twain quote (the novel "Huckleberry Finn,") you see that the hero, Huck, was praying that he would be a good boy when, deep down inside, he knew that's not what he really wanted, because he was having too much fun being the ornery creature he had been up to that time. Hence the quote, "You can't pray a lie; I found that out."

So you see, it brings us right back to where we started: It's a matter of choice.

Ergo, as the scripture in Alma 32 says, you have to at least desire to believe. But for those who, for whatever reason, can't so much as muster a desire, then what you say is quite true: It doesn't work.