If I won the lottery would the Church accept tithing on that?

[CV75]

59 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I pay tithing on all income regardless of source.  God didn't provide any restrictions on that.

If one of my sources is an ill gotten gain that doesn't remove the requirement to tithe but it should make me examine where I'm getting my income.  And I should repent of all income received through evil, not compound the evil by breaking additional laws.

This is an interesting requirement: to tithe on ill-gotten gain. Isn't tithing on it compounding the evil by "consecrating" the evil in the Lord's name, the same way we consecrate our righteous income-generating labor to the Lord? The covenant to obey the commandments (including repenting when we break them) is made in His name. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

Isn't investing in the stock market essentially gambling?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, blackstrap said:

To be  fair ,life is a gamble .That is why we buy insurance. 

If you buy a rental property , you expect to make money to pay off the mortgage , hoping the renters don't trash the place. A farmer plants his fields gambling against hail and drought and pests. Pick a job and there will be be an aspect of chance involved. 

The way gambling was explained to me was it was wrong because it was trying to get something for nothing, gambling was not seen as work or an investment that might pay off.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Isn't investing in the stock market essentially gambling?

So is farming and fishing with nets. I think the difference lies in the covetousness involved. Gambling is taking OPM in a mutually covetous covenant, essentially a self-deceptive secret combination where someone is bound to lose in the name of chance.

[LoudmouthMormon]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Isn't investing in the stock market essentially gambling?

Gambling is when you create overwhelming odds of losing money that otherwise wouldn't be there.   Having money carries with it a certain amount of risk that must be dealt with in some way.  If you're not gonna spend it, you can put it in your mattress, stick it in a bank or a CD, invest in an asset, or invest in a business.  One of the ways you do that last one is called "the stock market".  Each of those choices carry various pros and cons that you weigh.

"The house always wins".  It's not just a wry commentary on how things seem to be, it's factual reality.  Gambling isn't an investment, it's not a risky way to make money.  The house always wins.  The emotions and sensationalism behind the splinter-of-a-percentage of large payouts cover for the fact that the gambling entity rakes in far more than it pays out.

Gambling sells false hope, and sells an image of exciting times and respect and instant fame and friends that is far from reality.  

There are several analogies with gambling, and stuff like prostitution and dealing drugs.  Set aside the different legal landscape, and look at the cost to human dignity, relationships, means.

Full disclosure: I'm the son of a WWII-generation semi-professional craps player.  My upbringing was full of "family vacations" to Wendover UT, which had the closest casinos to SLC.  I did learn one way to game the system: From age 12, I learned that if I sat on a bar stool just outside the gaming areas and looked sad, the cocktail waitresses would take pity on me and bring me a coke.  But my dad and his peers spent their lives trying to figure out the right method to game the system, and they all died having "invested" about the same amount of money as your average middle-class guy with a passionate hobby like fishing or trucks.  Except they all died without any fishing equipment or trucks.

Edited May 26, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[JAHS]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Isn't investing in the stock market essentially gambling?

Not if you invest wisely. By doing that you are not risking money blindly. The stock market is usually good at eventually providing returns on the investment, unless it crashes which is not likely to happen again. Am I gambling with my life every time I drive my car on the freeway? Not if I am careful. Same with the stock market. 

[Judd]

20 hours ago, blackstrap said:

Ouch. 

Lotteries run by and for the government are just another way to tax people, particularly the poor who can be desperate .My government says it uses lottery revenues to pay for public services like heath care , woman's shelters etc. so you might think that buying a ticket as charity. Right !!

As far as I know the church does not accept gambling money for tithing. That said, there are several other lines on the donation slip one could use  eg. humanitarian etc where it could be put .

Governments using lottery money to fund things that are universally determined to be good is just a shell game. Remember all the money that used to fund [insert good thing] pre-lottery? It’s now being redirected to whatever thing the lottery money was actually intended to fund.

[ZealouslyStriving]

For those smarter than I, what is the "speculation" (in money matters) some prophets warned against. To me the context seemed to be investing in things/ways that guess at what markets will do.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Gambling is when you create overwhelming odds of losing money that otherwise wouldn't be there.   Having money carries with it a certain amount of risk that must be dealt with in some way.  If you're not gonna spend it, you can put it in your mattress, stick it in a bank or a CD, invest in an asset, or invest in a business.  One of the ways you do that last one is called "the stock market".  Each of those choices carry various pros and cons that you weigh.

"The house always wins".  It's not just a wry commentary on how things seem to be, it's factual reality.  Gambling isn't an investment, it's not a risky way to make money.  The house always wins.  The emotions and sensationalism behind the splinter-of-a-percentage of large payouts cover for the fact that the gambling entity rakes in far more than it pays out.

Gambling sells false hope, and sells an image of exciting times and respect and instant fame and friends that is far from reality.  

There are several analogies with gambling, and stuff like prostitution and dealing drugs.  Set aside the different legal landscape, and look at the cost to human dignity, relationships, means.

Full disclosure: I'm the son of a WWII-generation semi-professional craps player.  My upbringing was full of "family vacations" to Wendover UT, which had the closest casinos to SLC.  I did learn one way to game the system: From age 12, I learned that if I sat on a bar stool just outside the gaming areas and looked sad, the cocktail waitresses would take pity on me and bring me a coke.  But my dad and his peers spent their lives trying to figure out the right method to game the system, and they all died having "invested" about the same amount of money as your average middle-class guy with a passionate hobby like fishing or trucks.  Except they all died without any fishing equipment or trucks.

I know a guy who died with a prostitute and drugs, though...

[CV75]

21 hours ago, blackstrap said:

Ouch. 

Lotteries run by and for the government are just another way to tax people, particularly the poor who can be desperate .My government says it uses lottery revenues to pay for public services like heath care , woman's shelters etc. so you might think that buying a ticket as charity. Right !!

As far as I know the church does not accept gambling money for tithing. That said, there are several other lines on the donation slip one could use  eg. humanitarian etc where it could be put .

I suggest putting all of it there is the best of all the repentance-leaning options.

[bluebell]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

How many members actually play the lottery, do you think?  It’s throwing money away in my view.

I’m with you but I bet quite a few buy stuff from gas stations and places like that. People think it’s fun. Some people even give scratchers as gifts. 

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

So is farming and fishing with nets. I think the difference lies in the covetousness involved. Gambling is taking OPM in a mutually covetous covenant, essentially a self-deceptive secret combination where someone is bound to lose in the name of chance.

I don’t think people who gamble on Blackjack can (generally speaking) approach the covetousness of your average day trader or cryptocurrency speculator.

4 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Gambling is when you create overwhelming odds of losing money that otherwise wouldn't be there.   Having money carries with it a certain amount of risk that must be dealt with in some way.  If you're not gonna spend it, you can put it in your mattress, stick it in a bank or a CD, invest in an asset, or invest in a business.  One of the ways you do that last one is called "the stock market".  Each of those choices carry various pros and cons that you weigh.

"The house always wins".  It's not just a wry commentary on how things seem to be, it's factual reality.  Gambling isn't an investment, it's not a risky way to make money.  The house always wins.  The emotions and sensationalism behind the splinter-of-a-percentage of large payouts cover for the fact that the gambling entity rakes in far more than it pays out.

Gambling sells false hope, and sells an image of exciting times and respect and instant fame and friends that is far from reality.  

There are several analogies with gambling, and stuff like prostitution and dealing drugs.  Set aside the different legal landscape, and look at the cost to human dignity, relationships, means.

Full disclosure: I'm the son of a WWII-generation semi-professional craps player.  My upbringing was full of "family vacations" to Wendover UT, which had the closest casinos to SLC.  I did learn one way to game the system: From age 12, I learned that if I sat on a bar stool just outside the gaming areas and looked sad, the cocktail waitresses would take pity on me and bring me a coke.  But my dad and his peers spent their lives trying to figure out the right method to game the system, and they all died having "invested" about the same amount of money as your average middle-class guy with a passionate hobby like fishing or trucks.  Except they all died without any fishing equipment or trucks.

So if you play poker with others without a house involved it becomes licit? If it is pushed from being a negative sum game to a zero sum game for those involved does that change things?

4 hours ago, JAHS said:

Not if you invest wisely. By doing that you are not risking money blindly. The stock market is usually good at eventually providing returns on the investment, unless it crashes which is not likely to happen again. Am I gambling with my life every time I drive my car on the freeway? Not if I am careful. Same with the stock market. 

God gave some investment commands/advice in D&C 124 and it didn’t yield a lot of financial returns for the investors. If God can’t tell what is a good investment………

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

So if you play poker with others without a house involved it becomes licit? If it is pushed from being a negative sum game to a zero sum game for those involved does that change things?

Maybe if they weren’t harmed and didn’t care about losing the money, they were wise enough to only bet money they didn’t need and their families didn’t need so at the end they could all laugh about it and feel satisfied when walking away rather than anger and disappointment.  Poker is a fun game, I understand the appeal. (I have just played with chips or toothpicks and no one won anything but the right to call themselves the best player that day.)

Personally if I ever played poker on a regular basis, it would have to be for a small, set amount of money and at the end of the day the winner would donate it all to their favorite charity, so everyone walks away without resentment since they knew their money was gone whether or not they win or lose.

Edited May 27, 2024 by Calm

[Pyreaux]

On 5/25/2024 at 10:01 PM, nuclearfuels said:

Hypothetical here; just curious.

I like the idea of buying land in countries the Church doesn't yet own land and donating it anonymously to the Church - if I couldn't pay tithing on winning the lottery. 

If the Church doesn't accept tithing money on lottery or gambling winnings, what creative ways would you use to still comply w/ the 10% commandment?

It's a very common fantasy whenever members learn the church won't take gambling winnings as tithing. They like thinking of how to get around the dilemma of winning, which they credit as a freak act of God, therefore they must repay God. Donate it to the Missionary Fund.

#MakeItATrillion

#LDSForever100years!

Edited May 27, 2024 by Pyreaux

[MustardSeed]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Maybe if they weren’t harmed and didn’t care about losing the money, they were wise enough to only bet money they didn’t need and their families didn’t need so at the end they could all laugh about it and feel satisfied when walking away rather than anger and disappointment.  Poker is a fun game, I understand the appeal. (I have just played with chips or toothpicks and no one won anything but the right to call themselves the best player that day.)

Personally if I ever played poker on a regular basis, it would have to be for a small, set amount of money and at the end of the day the winner would donate it all to their favorite charity, so everyone walks away without resentment since they knew their money was gone whether or not they win or lose.

I think everything except for fentanyl can be done in moderation and it do no significant harm.

I mean, obviously robbing bank and meth and betraying your spouse, etc. would be problems. Just getting ahead of the arguing lol. 

[Bernard Gui]

On 5/25/2024 at 11:14 PM, Calm said:

How would that be complying with the reason behind the commandments to become closer to God?  Do you think God is upset with you breaking one commandment on purpose, but can be bought off by you obeying another?  Why not commit adultery, but then give money to a charity for single mothers to make up for it?  Shaft your employees, but then give to a charity for the homeless.

Maybe like  Mormon indugences?

Edited May 27, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 5/25/2024 at 11:49 PM, Tacenda said:

I just don't understand wanting to donate to the church with billions and billions and not want to donate to a charity or families that is needy. But I guess it's none of my business what you do. 

Depends on what the Church is doing with the billions and billions of dollars. I see that it is doing great things, therefore I will continue to contribute.

[JAHS]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

God gave some investment commands/advice in D&C 124 and it didn’t yield a lot of financial returns for the investors. If God can’t tell what is a good investment………

The Nauvoo house would have been a good investment if they had completed it. God can only tell them what he wants them to do. If they fail to do it that is on them or on the enemies of the church who drove them out of Nauvoo. He allows people to use their agency to do what they want and would not interfere with that.
Also, like He told Joseph Smith  "all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good." (D&C 122: 7)
Portions of the original manuscript were retrieved from the cornerstone and the basement was used to hide the bodies of Joseph and Hyrum.

[CV75]

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t think people who gamble on Blackjack can (generally speaking) approach the covetousness of your average day trader or cryptocurrency speculator.

So if you play poker with others without a house involved it becomes licit? If it is pushed from being a negative sum game to a zero sum game for those involved does that change things?

God gave some investment commands/advice in D&C 124 and it didn’t yield a lot of financial returns for the investors. If God can’t tell what is a good investment………

Of course anyone can be covetous in carrying out their legitimate work, but ill gains come only by covetousness since they rely solely upon chance, violence, extortion, murder and other “anti-agency principles.” The Church does not want tithe on these kinds of gains.

This is tithing policy for the earthly kingdom. The Lord will judge people for their covetousness and unjust actions impacting their preparedness for His heavenly kingdom. The earthly kingdom is not going to police each individual’s transaction for its morality and integrity, but she can safely tell gamblers “no thank you” because the activity is covetous (unjust) by design.

RE: the question about a casual poker game among friends, it makes sense to ask each player if they want their money back and if they do, give it to them and tithe on the leftover gains. Or tithe on the amount of the original winnings if you're feeling heady (who cares at that point)? At that point the money has become a gift.

RE: God's advice, I would take it anyway. Worst (best?) case scenario is that I get out of paying tithe.

[LoudmouthMormon]

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If it is pushed from being a negative sum game to a zero sum game for those involved does that change things?

15 year old me would certainly say it changes things.  On a boy scout trip to Yellowstone to go snowmobiling, we all brought cash for the rental fees, and they put me in charge of the big pile of cash.  I taught the scouts to play poker in the hotel room that night.  It was sort of thrilling to use real money.  But of course after the game, the winners had to give their winnings back, and the losers didn't have to find another way to pay their rental fee.  "Just pretend" took all the sin out of it, but left most of the fun.

 

[rpn]

No one asks us where we got our tithing money.   So I suspect they would.   Not to mention that our tithe payments are rarely scrutinized anyway.  (It is pretty complicated to pay large sums you'd be paying if you won a lottery though.  The donation page online only let you do 9999.00 at a time, I think. )

But if we announced it as gambling funds, then at least some I know would decline tithe (there there is no method for doing that so I'm not sure how it would work.

I long ago decided that if I ever had the issue, and tithing was rejected, I'd just donate the same amount to the Church Educational System.

Edited May 27, 2024 by rpn

[blackstrap]

I don't know if it is still true, but a few years back, only the US church members could fully fund their fast offering requirements . Other countries had to get FO funds from Salt Lake. Seeing that a large %age of members now come from quite poor nations, if one has extra funds to donate , FO is a good choice. The Brethren have asked us to give a ' generous ' FO. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

The donation page online only let you do 9999.00 at a time, I think.

Just playing around with my own church online donation slip, it looks like $10M is the maximum. 

 

Yeah, I've been a finance clerk for a long time, and helped a lot of bishops during tithing declaration (formerly tithing settlement).  I never bothered actually looking at tithing amounts for members for a long time.  Bishops might have a vague interest in folks paying tithing if they have a calling that demands they be a full tithe payer.  But it's been decades since I heard of a bishop trying to figure out if a tithing amount is "full" or not.

I stopped printing out tithing reports for folks a couple of years ago, unless they request it.  Pretty much the only folks who want a report these days, are helping their kids learn about tithing, or aren't computer and taxes savvy enough to print out their own for taxes.

Plus, in-kind donations (where you give stock/property/bitcoin/bags of apples/whatever) to the church are done outside of the ward structure, and those donations do not appear on tithing records. 

The only problem folks'll have paying tithing on gambling winnings, will come if they decide to make some sort of public pronouncement about it.  And even then, they'll probably have to push hard and demand some sort of response.   

Edited May 27, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[CV75]

2 hours ago, rpn said:

No one asks us where we got our tithing money.   So I suspect they would.   Not to mention that our tithe payments are rarely scrutinized anyway.  (It is pretty complicated to pay large sums you'd be paying if you won a lottery though.  The donation page online only let you do 9999.00 at a time, I think. )

But if we announced it as gambling funds, then at least some I know would decline tithe (there there is no method for doing that so I'm not sure how it would work.

I long ago decided that if I ever had the issue, and tithing was rejected, I'd just donate the same amount to the Church Educational System.

It think many Church policies like these are self-governed by the members and are set up for those who have questions concerning any particular choices before them. I would say a good many never think to ask, such as matters of sterilization. But if they are thinking about it enough to ask to look it up, we have a policy and individuals can go from there.

[Tacenda]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Depends on what the Church is doing with the billions and billions of dollars. I see that it is doing great things, therefore I will continue to contribute.

I understand.