If I won the lottery would the Church accept tithing on that?

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, CV75 said:

Of course anyone can be covetous in carrying out their legitimate work, but ill gains come only by covetousness since they rely solely upon chance, violence, extortion, murder and other “anti-agency principles.” The Church does not want tithe on these kinds of gains.

Rely solely on puts a really high bar there. That bans slots and maybe Roulette and craps. Blackjack and poker are fine though.

[Kenngo1969]

On 5/25/2024 at 9:49 PM, Tacenda said:

I just don't understand wanting to donate to the church with billions and billions and not want to donate to a charity or families that is needy. But I guess it's none of my business what you do. 

You're absolutely right: It is absolutely none of your business.  But, thanks for chiming in anyway!   

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

You're absolutely right: It is absolutely none of your business.  But, thanks for chiming in anyway!   

And you can you both, if you wish, and fast offerings go to people in need.

[CV75]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Rely solely on puts a really high bar there. That bans slots and maybe Roulette and craps. Blackjack and poker are fine 

High bar/low bar sounds like a good scratch ticket title!

I see a difference between managing the odds and relying on chance. Which way does the game lean? Which way would the Church's administrators lean on a particular case, if they bothered to get into the weeds?

The OP is about lottery winnings which do rely solely on chance, and the Church policy is based on a correct principle concerning the Lord's action toward agency and order to leverage and transform chance and chaos. The saints will apply this one principle according to the light they have, and not in isolation from other principles by which they can obtain more light.

I'm trying to think of a scriptural or historical example of a gray area, a poker-like gain that contributed to the building of the kingdom. Where the Lord's servant by skill and cunning in beating the odds took material resources away from another, who by their lack of skill and understanding, counted soley or mostly on chance for their material advancement.

[Stormin' Mormon]

I'm curious if there is a definitive statement or policy that explicitly states that the Church will not accept tithing from gambling winnings.  All I've ever seen is hearsay and anecdotes.  The only thing in the handbook that I can find is a brief statement indicating that the Church is against gambling in all forms, but that section is only two sentences long and says nothing about tithing.

It seems like an arbitrary line to draw, especially since the Church WILL accept tithing from members of the Church who are employed as gambling facilitators at casinos.  Heck, I spent my college years working in a convenience store selling tobacco, alcohol, and porn, and the Church was never squeamish about accepting my tithing, even though my wages came from the profits my company made off of those vices.  

[CV75]

44 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

I'm curious if there is a definitive statement or policy that explicitly states that the Church will not accept tithing from gambling winnings.  All I've ever seen is hearsay and anecdotes.  The only thing in the handbook that I can find is a brief statement indicating that the Church is against gambling in all forms, but that section is only two sentences long and says nothing about tithing.

It seems like an arbitrary line to draw, especially since the Church WILL accept tithing from members of the Church who are employed as gambling facilitators at casinos.  Heck, I spent my college years working in a convenience store selling tobacco, alcohol, and porn, and the Church was never squeamish about accepting my tithing, even though my wages came from the profits my company made off of those vices.  

I can see a fine line between accommodating tithing from employment in legal industries that meet "telestial" demands and receiving tithe from lottery winnings.

But as you point out, beyond the hypothetical from the OP, is there a policy?

[ZealouslyStriving]

17 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I can see a fine line between accommodating tithing from employment in legal industries that meet "telestial" demands and receiving tithe from lottery winnings.

But as you point out, beyond the hypothetical from the OP, is there a policy?

I looked at the GHI- didn't find anything.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I looked at the GHI- didn't find anything.

So I guess if I accidentally won the lottery I would have no problem paying tithes on it even though the Church discourages my intentional participation.

"38.8.17 Gambling and Lotteries  The Church opposes and counsels against gambling in any form. This includes sports betting and government-sponsored lotteries."

The nuance with gambling over other activities where risk is managed seems to be the strong influence of a randomizing device or process on the outcome.

Edited May 28, 2024 by CV75

[Stormin' Mormon]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I can see a fine line between accommodating tithing from employment in legal industries that meet "telestial" demands and receiving tithe from lottery winnings.

But as you point out, beyond the hypothetical from the OP, is there a policy?

True.  How about the not-so-hypothetical of gifted lottery tickets?  I've probably been gifted more lottery tickets in my life than I've ever bought for myself.  If I had won anything of value from such a gifted lottery ticket, on what basis would the Church have to deny me the blessings of tithing on those winnings?  And once we start drawing lines between gifted lottery tickets and purchased lottery tickets, the exercise in line drawing can only descend further into futility and silliness.  The Church has consistently declined to draw lines when it comes to the Word of Wisdom; I don't think they are going to start drawing lines for the principle of tithing, either.  

[Stormin' Mormon]

This was a topic of discussion some 12 years ago, and was one of the first threads to draw me out of lurker mode.  Back then I said:

Quote

 

I always thought that the principle of tithing was eloquently stated in D&C 19:26 when the Lord told Martin Harris not to covet his own property. Tithing allows us to show that we love the Lord more than we love our money. If I ever won the lottery, I would want to be able to pay tithing on it to show that, despite the new found wealth, I was still cognizant of the fact that all I have and every day I live is a gift from the Lord.

Why would the Church want to deny such an exercise in humility to anyone?

 

I still stand by that sentiment.  

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

I'm curious if there is a definitive statement or policy that explicitly states that the Church will not accept tithing from gambling winnings.  All I've ever seen is hearsay and anecdotes.  The only thing in the handbook that I can find is a brief statement indicating that the Church is against gambling in all forms, but that section is only two sentences long and says nothing about tithing.

It seems like an arbitrary line to draw, especially since the Church WILL accept tithing from members of the Church who are employed as gambling facilitators at casinos.  Heck, I spent my college years working in a convenience store selling tobacco, alcohol, and porn, and the Church was never squeamish about accepting my tithing, even though my wages came from the profits my company made off of those vices.  

Good point.  Everyone online keeps reiterating that the church doesn't accept tithing on gambling profits but I can't find any church sources that actually say that.

[CV75]

38 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

True.  How about the not-so-hypothetical of gifted lottery tickets?  I've probably been gifted more lottery tickets in my life than I've ever bought for myself.  If I had won anything of value from such a gifted lottery ticket, on what basis would the Church have to deny me the blessings of tithing on those winnings?  And once we start drawing lines between gifted lottery tickets and purchased lottery tickets, the exercise in line drawing can only descend further into futility and silliness.  The Church has consistently declined to draw lines when it comes to the Word of Wisdom; I don't think they are going to start drawing lines for the principle of tithing, either.  

Since there is no policy in the first place, there is no line, fine or otherwise, in the Church's administrative practice. But given the policy in the OP is hypothetical (iis prefaced with "If"), there is opportunity to explore our understanding of gambling, tithing, doctrine, policy, morality, ethics, etc.

[LoudmouthMormon]

I am loudly proclaiming that the church has zero processes or policies in place to stop anyone from paying tithing, no matter what the source.  The church will continue to be against things like gambling, sex work, the illicit drug trade, trafficking in slavery, embezzlement, and the like.   But the church doesn't have any way of knowing where anyone's tithing money comes from, so there's nothing stopping Walter White from paying tithing on his drug money if he wants. 

I mean, if the church actually learned of such a thing, they might take action of some sort.  But there are no proactive measures available to any bishop, counselor, or clerk that would allow us to deny tithing.   

Source: Me and my 5+ years as a financial clerk.  Training every 6 months, being audited every 6 months, and doing tithing weekly.  For all I know, those jingly-jangly envelopes with change from young 8 yr old Bobby, is coming from his protection racket at the local elementary school.

Source: Rational maturity.  Who out there is going to make an argument like "if you can pay tithing on it, that means the church approves of it"?

Source: Common sense.  Who out there is gonna pay tithing on their gambling winnings?  Are there any non-urban-legend verified stories of people playing the lottery, winning, and being active LDS to the point where they pay tithing on their winnings?

Edited May 28, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[CV75]

29 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Good point.  Everyone online keeps reiterating that the church doesn't accept tithing on gambling profits but I can't find any church sources that actually say that.

I think that may have been in deference to the hypothetical given in the OP. 

[MustardSeed]

47 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Good point.  Everyone online keeps reiterating that the church doesn't accept tithing on gambling profits but I can't find any church sources that actually say that.

So great to know! I can’t stand being a victim of tradition.  Since I’ve never bought a ticket and never gambled, it’s not an issue for me but I know now when the discussion comes up at dinner parties that I will not be touting the idea that church does not accept dirty money. 

 

[Stormin' Mormon]

17 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think that may have been in deference to the hypothetical given in the OP. 

Ah, right.  I thought the hypothetical was the winning of the lottery, but I guess both parts of the question were hypothetical (winning the lottery AND the Church refusing the tithe).  

My bad, and carry on.  

[blackstrap]

I wonder if the first edition of the GHI had something on gambling/ tithing ,  as back then gambling was illegal in most places.?

[Amulek]

On 5/25/2024 at 10:01 PM, nuclearfuels said:

If the Church doesn't accept tithing money on lottery or gambling winnings, what creative ways would you use to still comply w/ the 10% commandment?

To my knowledge, the Church doesn't have an official policy about refusing to accept tithing funds from gambling winnings. The only cases I know where the Church has returned tithing monies have been in situations where, after the fact, they discovered the money had been obtained illegally (e.g., via fraud). And even then, at least in the one case I remember off the top of my head, it wasn't the Church who did the sleuthing.

That being said, if I were to win the lottery and the Church refused to accept my tithing, I doubt I would bother with trying to comply with the 10% threshold. Instead, I would probably just apply that money to one of the charities I would have set up for my kids to run and draw income from - and then call it a day.

Here's the next question though: When you get to the end of the year and are asked to declare your tithing status, would you declare yourself as being a full tithe payer?

 

[MiserereNobis]

If a friend or family member won the lottery and gifted you money from it, would you accept it?

[bluebell]

50 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think that may have been in deference to the hypothetical given in the OP. 

I googled it and this is what everyone is saying online and has been saying for years (decades in some instances).  It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the OP.

[MiserereNobis]

I have a monthly (give or take) poker night. I'm the youngest guy in my late 40s... it's mainly guys in their 70s, including my high school geometry teacher. It costs $5 to get in. Our chips are nickel (white), dime (red), quarter (blue). We all bring appetizer food and a 6 pack of beer and play for about 3 hours. We have a fun time! And we often stop in the middle of a hand just to keep on chatting.

The most I've ever won is about $2. I think I've lost $3-$4.

It's funny how when playing with chips we forget the actual monetary value. Someone bets a blue chip and we all freak out and people fold. It's only 25 cents...

And for those who think face cards are evil, one of our decks was bought by a friend when he was traveling in India. Instead of the usual playing card images, it has pictures of ancient statues in India (I'm assuming from the same building/temple/whatever) depicting the various positions of the Kama Sutra. When that deck is in use, you can't declare one-eyed Jacks as wild, so sometimes we'll get "cards with 4 or more naked people are wild"  

(it's not as risqué as it sounds. These are pictures of old broken statues and you can't make too much detail out)

[ZealouslyStriving]

54 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

For all I know, those jingly-jangly envelopes with change from young 8 yr old Bobby, is coming from his protection racket at the local elementary school

[Amulek]

4 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

If a friend or family member won the lottery and gifted you money from it, would you accept it?

I am no respecter of dollars; or euros for that matter.

Yugo's, however, might be a bridge too far.

 

[CV75]

38 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Ah, right.  I thought the hypothetical was the winning of the lottery, but I guess both parts of the question were hypothetical (winning the lottery AND the Church refusing the tithe).  

My bad, and carry on.  

No, no bad at all. All part of a valid discussion as far as I'm concerned. You made some important points I thought.

[CV75]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I googled it and this is what everyone is saying online and has been saying for years (decades in some instances).  It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the OP.

Oh I see, thoooooose online everybodies! The source of "they say..."