Tithing Breaks Poverty Cycles?

[pogi]

23 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

 While I despise the prosperity gospel as preached by crazy people about how God wants people to be wealthy I believe God often elevates his people out of poverty.

The trick is to distinguish between the apostate and fallen prosperity gospel from the true and restored prosperity gospel taught in the scriptures and from our prophets.

Dont let the crazies ruin it for you.

[SettingDogStar]

5 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Ok.  And you can make that claim and that it is a sacrifice and has "spiritual benefits" for some, but don't tell me it ends poverty cycles.  

Again it depends on your opinion of poverty. 

[Ouagadougou]

4 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

So Jesus called His disciples attention to the widows mite because he didn’t care about it?

He did care about it.  

[SettingDogStar]

7 minutes ago, Gray said:

I reject the prosperity gospel for the vile satanic heresy that it is.

The you reject the Book of Mormon. In the essence that God told Lehi and all Prophets in the land that if they were obedient “they would prosper in the Land.”

Edited October 19, 2018 by SettingDogStar

[Avatar4321]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

The trick is to distinguish between the apostate and fallen prosperity gospel from the true and restored prosperity gospel taught in the scriptures and from our prophets.

Dont let the crazies ruin it for you.

I think the trick is in defining prosperity 

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, Walden said:

One can easily learn how to effectively budget, plan for the future, focus on education and learn best practices without giving 10% of their income to a multi-billion dollar organization.

Oh, a knee-jerk response - imagine that. Go back, read my post - read it slowly so that you understand. Read it again just to make sure you catch - there you go, almost there, ahhh, at last.  What were those words again, begin with "without the spiritual side."  Now, what does that mean in English - there you go, here's prize. Does not matter if there is a spiritual side.  Dang, when that old block is set for knee-jerk, you dang sure better believe it is going to go off, the brain shuts down, and out comes the silliness. 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

I was an active member for many years of my life and paid an honest tithe.  Now, however, I have a different point of view and think that paying tithing, is in no way, an effective tool to end poverty cycles.  People can claim the spiritual blessings of tithing all they want, but to claim that there is a monetary benefit for poor people in the world is ridiculous, IMO.  BTW, I try to give assistance to the poor and needy.  The irony is that it is the church, IMO, robbing the poor, by requiring they give 10% of their income.  

You have not replied to the factual points I made, but instead merely repeated your previous false statements.  This indicates that during your period of active membership in the LDS Church you remained unaware and uninformed of the actual programs of the Church, the nature of tithing, and have no concept of the meaning of faith.  Not surprisingly, with that sort of invulnerability to facts/data, it is not possible to carry on a rational conversation.  Do you take any responsibility for that intractable problem?

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

But surely he must see that what we call spiritual blessings can also be termed social benefits.  The idea that national results require national faith (according to Malachi 3) is a sound poli-sci principle. That a small minority can stimulate a nation's faith/ motivation (according to Matthew 13:33, Galatians 5:9) may by nature seem revolutionary, but it has been accomplished more than once (for better or worse, anyway). Scientifically-speaking (I'm thinking botany and animal husbandry, but this is seen in other physical phenomena as well), a short-term reduction in something often leads to its long term increase because other dynamics are involved (nothing happens in a vacuum). Oh wait, that's one of my favorite scriptures, too: John 12:24!

I keep thinking of the Jewish (and biblical) notion of a "saving remnant."  They do make all the difference.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Fortunate for you, a study has been published in the Journal of Economics and Finance:

I have said it before and I will say it again, the restored Church of Christ is the original prosperity gospel.

It seems that some who disagree with me on this point, seem to be defending the prosperity gospel teachings of President Nelson here. 

There is a difference, imo, between "prosperity" and "get rich" gospels, though often the latter masquerade as the former.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

That is a pretty judgemental statement since you don't know me as a person or my faith/experiences.  Just because someone has a different opinion doesn't give you the right to make such generalizations.   

Your own harsh and judgmental words convict you.  Your denial makes that all the more brazen and sad.

[strappinglad]

50 years ago, in Central America , there was a concern from the government that members of the church were giving money to the LDS church in tithes and offerings. They launched an investigation and required the church to open its books for review. They found just how much the saints there were giving to the church. They also found how much the Church sent to their country during the same time. The investigation quietly concluded and no more was heard. At that period the Church brought 10 times as much into the country as was given in tithes etc. Dadgum faithful saints in other places and their willingness to give.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

I don't owe anyone an apology, especially if they are my own opinions/beliefs.  

Freedom of choice and belief, amigo.  

You made a whole passel of false statements, and you made them recklessly.  The absence of concern for factual reportage is the most noteworthy thing about your facile comments on tithing.  You do have the right to be wrong, but you also have the right to have your falsehoods served up to you openly and royally.  Free speech works both ways.  You need to learn to accept the opinions of others graciously.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

How is that 10% being subsidized or earned again?  I never saw poor people who paid tithing in other countries get $ back, so it's no different in Kenya.  

Read the Ensign article I cited. Why do you assume to speak for them?

I heard many testimonies of the blessings of tithing while serving in Honduras, Nicaragua, and Costa Rica.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You have not replied to the factual points I made, but instead merely repeated your previous false statements.  This indicates that during your period of active membership in the LDS Church you remained unaware and uninformed of the actual programs of the Church, the nature of tithing, and have no concept of the meaning of faith.  Not surprisingly, with that sort of invulnerability to facts/data, it is not possible to carry on a rational conversation.  Do you take any responsibility for that intractable problem?

The Perpetual Education Fund is one highly successful program the Church offers people in impoverished areas. It enables members to lift themselves and their families out of poverty. To claim the Church takes but gives nothing back is inaccurate. 

Also the micro-credit loan program provides huge benefits. A close friend was integral in establishing this  program in Latin  America.

https://www.ldsjobs.org/ers/ct/articles/basics-of-microcredit?lang=eng

Edited October 20, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

58 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

50 years ago, in Central America , there was a concern from the government that members of the church were giving money to the LDS church in tithes and offerings. They launched an investigation and required the church to open its books for review. They found just how much the saints there were giving to the church. They also found how much the Church sent to their country during the same time. The investigation quietly concluded and no more was heard. At that period the Church brought 10 times as much into the country as was given in tithes etc. Dadgum faithful saints in other places and their willingness to give.

Source, please. I was in CA 50 years ago.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

You despise the prosperity gospel, but at the same time, embrace President Nelson's message that tithing ends poverty cycles?  His claim is the ebodiment of the prosperity gospel in many ways: pay tithing and your poor communities will flourish and rid itself of poverty.  

No, it is not. The prosperity gospel is about wealth. Those who sell it think of boats and cars and McMansions and large stock portfolios. Breaking out of poverty is about dignity and having enough for you and your family to live on. The first is usually driven by greed, the second comes from a desire for basic self-respect and dignity.

If President Nelson had promised decadent wealth you might have a point but he is a prophet and knows better.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

The trick is to distinguish between the apostate and fallen prosperity gospel from the true and restored prosperity gospel taught in the scriptures and from our prophets.

Dont let the crazies ruin it for you.

I do not believe there is a true prosperity gospel unless you redefine it. In general the Lord does not promise wealth to his followers on an individual basis. Obedience to the gospel and the paying of tithes usually results in enough of this world’s goods to get by. At times the Lord blesses his followers with what the world calls wealth as a trial and/or as a means to make them useful in a specific role. Wealth is not an indicator of righteousness.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Walden said:

One can easily learn how to effectively budget, plan for the future, focus on education and learn best practices without giving 10% of their income to a multi-billion dollar organization.

Yes, but one cannot eventually inherit all the Father hath so it is really a substandard economic policy.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I feel genuinely bad for members who’ve lived such pampered lives that clearly they’ve never learnt the lessons one learns when one chooses to pay tithing instead of buying food or something similar. 🙁

[pogi]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I do not believe there is a true prosperity gospel unless you redefine it. In general the Lord does not promise wealth to his followers on an individual basis. Obedience to the gospel and the paying of tithes usually results in enough of this world’s goods to get by. At times the Lord blesses his followers with what the world calls wealth as a trial and/or as a means to make them useful in a specific role. Wealth is not an indicator of righteousness.

This is the true prosperity gospel defined in the Book of Mormon - "if ye keep my commandments, ye shall prosper in the land..."

This is emphasized in the church over and over.  The Church itself attributes it's financial success as a fulfillment of that promise -

Quote

 

Following sound financial principles over an extended period of time, the Church has grown from meager beginnings into a worldwide organization able to support its divine mission. Its current relative prosperity only reflects the faith of its members in keeping the law of tithing and the accomplishment in their lives of the Lord’s often-repeated promise that “inasmuch as ye shall keep my commandments ye shall prosper in the land” (Alma 9:13).

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-finances-and-a-growing-global-church

 

Prosperity theology is not all about wealth though, it is more of a holistic prosperity.   

The main principles that we share with prosperity theology are these:

1) It is God's will for his people to be happy.   Hello!!! 2 Nephi 2:25 anybody!? Doesn't get any more Mormon (I honestly don't know what else to use here - Latter-day Saint doesn't fit) than that! 

2) Emphasizes the importance of personal empowerment.

3) The atonement encompasses physical ailment and not just spiritual. 

4) Promotes a positive view of the spirit and body.  Many theologies portray the human body/flesh in a negative light.

5) Both spiritual and temporal blessings can be a part of righteous living.  

6) Paying tithing can help alleviate poverty.

7) Wealth should be used to bless the lives of others - 

Quote

 

Jacob 2:

18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.

19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

 

Many of these ideas seem to be borrowed from the play book of the Latter-day Saints.  These principles and theologies started popping up after the restoration of these ideas in Christianity through Joseph Smith.

I can understand the desire to distance ourselves from other so called prosperity gospels.  I understand the hesitance to be grouped together with other prosperity theologies as we differ in many ways too.  For example, poverty and sickness are not equated with sin in our Church, etc.  But overall, we absolutely do teach a...nay...THE prosperity gospel.  

The Book of Mormon itself is basically an account of the cycles of the prosperity gospel being lived over and over and over again throughout the book. 

We don't need to be ashamed of these principles.  They are beautiful.

Edited October 20, 2018 by pogi

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

The Perpetual Education Fund is one highly successful program the Church offers people in impoverished areas. It enables members to lift themselves and their families out of poverty. To claim the Church takes but gives nothing back is inaccurate. 

Yes, and that PEF program has now been superseded by an even larger and more ambitious CES Global Education Initiative, including Pathway, which is run primarily out of BYU-Idaho.  https://www.lds.org/church-education/global-education-initiative/introduction?lang=eng .  That Ouagoudougou knows nothing of that and the other massive LDS welfare programs indicates to me that he may never have been an active LDS Church member -- though he claims to have been.

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Also the micro-credit loan program provides huge benefits. A close friend was integral in establishing this  program in Latin  America.

https://www.ldsjobs.org/ers/ct/articles/basics-of-microcredit?lang=eng

Similar programs run by non-Mormons have been very successful in India as well.  People (especially women) are being aided at the village level with small loans to start businesses.

[Maidservant]

21 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

And in order to attend this temple they must give up 10% of their income, so poor people are becoming poorer, not quite the claim that tithing ends poverty cycles.  

I've never understood the problem people have, and the way they state, that you have to pay to get into a temple.  Temples are built on the basis of tithing.  One of the statements tithing payers are making, in effect, is that 'I want there to be temples and their covenants on the earth'.  Where a person puts ANY of their money (not just tithing) is a vote about what they want to continue on this planet. A person who chooses not to pay tithing is saying 'I don't want or it is not important to me that there are temples and I don't want to covenant'.  So their wish is granted--if they choose not to pay tithing, if they choose not to temple participate, they receive what they truly desire.

20 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

 the UN, UNICEF, UNESCO,

Because these guys have ended poverty . . . [sarcasm].  They have no idea what they are doing either and have not even come close to ending poverty cycles.  They might want to take notes from the Church.

20 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

It also depends on what the poverty line is considered at. The Lords definition and ours can be very different. He knows we need shelter, food, water, and spiritual nourishment. In the modern world we need money to obtain some of these things sometimes. Jesus really didn’t have much in His possession to our understanding, even when He was living with Mary and Joseph. He had what he needed and was probably BELOW the poverty line, but to God and to Himself He had all He needed in the world. So really it depends and your view.

Another thread, but just my pet peeve, ha ha :), so I always have to say something:  Jesus wasn't poor.

20 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

The problem is, all of that $ is given to the church and won't be re-utilized within local communities...it all goes to the church and most of that money is not used for humanitarian purposes.  Also, was this study done on those above or below the poverty line?  Half of Kenya is almost below the poverty line.  

EVERY bit of tithing goes to bless humanity in some way--community buildings (churches), temples, missions (where young people bless other countries and grow themselves), books that bless us, music that blesses us, humanitarian and disaster relief, youth activity, education programs, canned potato pearls, on and on.  There isn't ANYTHING the church does, with tithing and other means, that isn't calculated to bless mankind.  You may want to be blessed in a different way, but I don't know what the church does that counts as NOT blessing humankind.

20 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

IMO, I personally doubt that Jesus cares if a poor person or anyone really gives money to a church (as a spiritual protection cost or entry fee to enter the temple) that already has billions of dollars.  

Much of the Church's solvency and abundance has been on the basis of tithing; the billions you are talking about began in the seed of tithing; but until the entire peoples of the earth are freed from 'the poverty cycle' and many worse things, the work of the Church is not done.  They aren't finished!  And this work might take trillions of dollars, not billions!  The Church is not done blessing the entire planet--they are just getting started.  This is just the beginning!  "The Church" is US, not THEM.

19 hours ago, The Nehor said:

 It is about the faith that powers the giving.

Yes.  The person knows that they have the power to give.  That is very strengthening and opens up their soul to other elevations.

 

 

The Law of Tithing is a two-way law.  It never has been a one-way law.  One may not understand or believe the two-wayness of it; but it has always been stated and taught as two-way, and to the degree that one may understand and believe that giving (first)-receiving (then) IS part of the fabric of how the universe works (i.e. a Law), that is what has always been meant.  What goes out AND what comes in--THAT is the Law of Tithing.  BOTH.  TOGETHER.  You may not think it works that way (and the Church didn't invent tithing, it's a thing for a lot of people who understand money and material; and is an ancient practice), but the offering of that Law from God and the Church to His people has always been on the basis that it works that way--out AND in.  You may think the 'incoming' part is a lie, but at least the Church has never stated tithing as missing the 'incoming' part.  They have offered "windows of heaven open" and "ending of poverty cycle" et cetera.  The only thing left is to test and try the law for oneself.  That is the only way a person finds out what 'comes in'.

As far as an overarching ending of poverty cycle, again--everything the church does is calculated to end all poverties--of mind, spirit, body.  EVERYTHING.  All their programs, publications, etc are to uplift the experience of humankind.  This is done on the basis of tithing, and it is the work we all get to participate in on that basis.  I love it.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Maidservant

[SettingDogStar]

1 hour ago, Maidservant said:

 

Another thread, but just my pet peeve, ha ha :), so I always have to say something:  Jesus wasn't poor.

 

Didn't sound like he owned a house and only had what he needed to survive with His apostles as they went and preached. 

[Robert F. Smith]

17 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

He did care about it.  

Why then do you reject Jesus' view of the widow's mite?  According to you, she couldn't afford to give, and that was only making her poverty worse.  You are accusing Jesus of a heartless effort to take everything from that poor woman, and that is the same tortuous case you make against Doc Nelson.  According to you, both Jesus and Nelson worsen poverty.  How do you reach that absurd and false conclusion?  By ignoring context.  Real world context.  Now why would you do that?

Same applies to Elijah and the poor widow with only a little oil left in a jar and a handful of flour.  Elijah requested that she make him some bread.  She did as he asked, even though it meant death for her and her child.  However, due to her faith, there was an endless supply of oil and flour (1 Kings 17:7-16).  Elijah's or Jesus' widow might have taken the faithless Ouagadougou approach, but they did not.  Those widows chose to follow the words of the prophets.

[Robert F. Smith]

8 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

Didn't sound like he owned a house and only had what he needed to survive with His apostles as they went and preached. 

"The Poor" was a code-word for the early Christians, who had all things in common.