Tithing Breaks Poverty Cycles?

[Ouagadougou]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

In this case he was not fallible, speaking as a man, or on the wrong side of history and if his counsel is followed the promised blessings will come.

 I have no idea what being behind the power curve even means so I cannot speak to that.

If you want substantiated proof of what he says I recommend heading on over and conducting a decades long research study on tithing paying and its results. Good luck, we will all look forward to your final report.

 

 

Once again, "promised spiritual blessings," but how does paying tithing end actual poverty cycles in communities across the globe in terms of money?  

If President Nelson were to tell the UN, UNICEF, UNESCO, etc., that a 10% tithe to the LDS Church would help end poverty cycles, he would probably be laughed at because it isn't an effective tool to fight poverty (quite the opposite really).  People can claim the "spiritual blessings all they want, but it's ridiculous to believe that it ends actual, real-life poverty, IMO.  

A study would be easy: Subject A paid 10% of his/her income every year and never got any of that money back, but he/she gained "spiritual blessings." 

[Ouagadougou]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

You said you have no contact with them. How do  you know they are becoming poorer? How do you presume to speak for them? 

How is that 10% being subsidized or earned again?  I never saw poor people who paid tithing in other countries get $ back, so it's no different in Kenya.  

[Ouagadougou]

11 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

If you want to be a faithful Latter Day Saint then I wouldn’t recommend open rebellion against the Lords commands

Open rebellion? IMO, it's a pretty outlandish claim that tithing ends poverty, and I think many people across the world would agree with me.  

[Avatar4321]

I’ve lived most of my adult life below the poverty line. I’ve had times where I faithfully paid tithes and where I didn’t.

the times I faithfully paid tithes, we were blessed beyond expect.

we had rent paid anonymously.

debt payments made anonymously (more amazing since no one else knew of the debt)

friends randomly pay for car repairs we desperately needed.

the Church has always been willing to help us with food when we needed it.

without tithing I don’t believe half those things would have happened 

[pogi]

8 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Once again, "promised spiritual blessings," but how does paying tithing end actual poverty cycles in communities across the globe in terms of money?  

If President Nelson were to tell the UN, UNICEF, UNESCO, etc., that a 10% tithe to the LDS Church would help end poverty cycles, he would probably be laughed at because it isn't an effective tool to fight poverty (quite the opposite really).  People can claim the "spiritual blessings all they want, but it's ridiculous to believe that it ends actual, real-life poverty, IMO.  

A study would be easy: Subject A paid 10% of his/her income every year and never got any of that money back, but he/she gained "spiritual blessings." 

Fortunate for you, a study has been published in the Journal of Economics and Finance:

Quote

 

Nonprofit economists have always assumed that income is a precursor to giving. In contrast, many philosophical and religious teachings have asserted that it is giving that leads to prosperity. This article seeks to test the non-economic hypothesis, using data from the 2000 Social Capital Community Benchmark Survey. It identifies strong evidence that money giving does, in fact, influence income. This is consistent with extant psychology research which clearly shows that volunteering leads to positive mental and physical health outcomes. The implication of these findings for researchers and managers is that the value of charity is not limited to those who receive the services that giving makes possible. On the contrary, charity unleashes substantial benefits to the givers themselves.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02885730#page-2

 

I have said it before and I will say it again, the restored Church of Christ is the original prosperity gospel.

It seems that some who disagree with me on this point, seem to be defending the prosperity gospel teachings of President Nelson here. 

[SettingDogStar]

6 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Open rebellion? IMO, it's a pretty outlandish claim that tithing ends poverty, and I think many people across the world would agree with me.  

It also depends on what the poverty line is considered at. The Lords definition and ours can be very different. He knows we need shelter, food, water, and spiritual nourishment. In the modern world we need money to obtain some of these things sometimes. Jesus really didn’t have much in His possession to our understanding, even when He was living with Mary and Joseph. He had what he needed and was probably BELOW the poverty line, but to God and to Himself He had all He needed in the world. So really it depends and your view.

[Ouagadougou]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

Fortunate for you, a study has been published in the Journal of Economics and Finance:

I have said it before and I will say it again, the restored Church of Christ is the original prosperity gospel.

It seems that some who disagree with me on this point, seem to be defending the prosperity gospel teachings of President Nelson here. 

The problem is, all of that $ is given to the church and won't be re-utilized within local communities...it all goes to the church and most of that money is not used for humanitarian purposes.  Also, was this study done on those above or below the poverty line?  Half of Kenya is almost below the poverty line.  

[Ouagadougou]

2 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

It also depends on what the poverty line is considered at. The Lords definition and ours can be very different. He knows we need shelter, food, water, and spiritual nourishment. In the modern world we need money to obtain some of these things sometimes. Jesus really didn’t have much in His possession to our understanding, even when He was living with Mary and Joseph. He had what he needed and was probably BELOW the poverty line, but to God and to Himself He had all He needed in the world. So really it depends and your view.

IMO, I personally doubt that Jesus cares if a poor person or anyone really gives money to a church (as a spiritual protection cost or entry fee to enter the temple) that already has billions of dollars.  

[Storm Rider]

29 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

If it's not a magic process then why is the prophet himself claiming and telling people that it ends poverty cycles?  If paying tithing did, in fact, end poverty cycles, then why aren't other world organizations that fight poverty use and/or implement it (tithing) as a vital tool?  Because it doesn't help end poverty cycles in any way.  Conversely, tithing is only making poor members even poorer; they don't get that money back.  You can claim they get "spiritual benefits," but not monetary benefits.  

I assume you read my post. Are you then stating that a family that learns to budget, plan for the future, focus on education and learning best practices does not lead to a high standard of living?  Are you also stating that an individual who engages God intimately in their lives does not lead to a more spiritual way of life?

I don't see how paying tithing does not lead to a better way of life even without the spiritual side - however, to me the spiritual side makes it infinitely better. 

[Walden]

The answer in a nutshell is "no", paying tithing has not been proven to break the cycle of poverty and there is no objective evidence that "poverty continues from one generation to another, until people pay their tithing.'"

People here talk about the spiritual blessings of tithing, which are subjective at best, or the financial benefits of more disciplined budgeting as the result of having to carve out 10% one's income (which can be accomplished just as successfully without giving one's money to the church).

People may feel more spiritual, humble, blessed, etc. by paying tithing, and some will offer anecdotal stories of how they got a surprise/unexpected check in the mail after paying tithing, but if you are looking for objective evidence of generational poverty being alleviated by donating 10% of one's income to a church, then you will not find it here.

This statement by Nelson is much like the message delivered by prosperity gospel preachers, who teach that members will be blessed with material wealth if they donate money to their church. It is hogwash and not supported by anything other than anecdotal notions and the warm, fuzzy feelings of the spirit, but not actual material wealth.

[Walden]

2 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I assume you read my post. Are you then stating that a family that learns to budget, plan for the future, focus on education and learning best practices does not lead to a high standard of living?  Are you also stating that an individual who engages God intimately in their lives does not lead to a more spiritual way of life?

I don't see how paying tithing does not lead to a better way of life even without the spiritual side - however, to me the spiritual side makes it infinitely better. 

One can easily learn how to effectively budget, plan for the future, focus on education and learn best practices without giving 10% of their income to a multi-billion dollar organization.

[Ouagadougou]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

A.  Naturally, if you assume that Dr Nelson is a fool or senile, then all those other notions might seem justified.  Some might think that one of the world's most prominent heart surgeons, who taught at Harvard, etc., is just a phony.  No credit due for merit.  Is that an appropriate way to render judgment?  Especially in view of your ignorance as to what constitutes tithing:  One pays 10% of his "increase."  No increase, no tithing owed.  A third world farmer, just like an American farmer, may make no profit at all in some years (do you know what a P&L statement is?).  Sometimes, lack of rain or too much rain can destroy crops, thus leaving the farmer with heavy debt from purchase of seed, fertilizer, and farm machinery.  Hint:  If outgo exceeds income, it is called a "loss" in the Profit & Loss statement.  That carries some weight with tax collectors.

B.  Another issue is the truth or falsity of the LDS faith.  For you, those who have faith are delusional, ill-informed, and out of touch with reality.  In Alma 32 in the Book of Mormon, the experimental method is discussed as a valid way to find out the truth about faith in God, faith in the Gospel, faith in tithing, etc.  The experimental method is the basis of science and technology.  It is the way in which humans have cleverly advanced themselves since time immemorial.  God has made a promise:  Malachi 3:7-10,

Your lack of faith distinguishes you as uninformed and unwilling to test God's promise to pour out blessings upon those who willingly pay Him what he already owns anyhow.

C.  Finally, you ignore the standard practice within the LDS Church of providing for the poor and destitute.  The Church has extensive programs to educate, feed, and clothe those in need.  For one so faithless as you, it is all about robbing the poor.  It is you, good buddy, who are out of touch with reality, you who is ill-informed and deeply prejudiced.

I was an active member for many years of my life and paid an honest tithe.  Now, however, I have a different point of view and think that paying tithing, is in no way, an effective tool to end poverty cycles.  People can claim the spiritual blessings of tithing all they want, but to claim that there is a monetary benefit for poor people in the world is ridiculous, IMO.  BTW, I try to give assistance to the poor and needy.  The irony is that it is the church, IMO, robbing the poor, by requiring they give 10% of their income.  

[Ouagadougou]

5 minutes ago, Walden said:

The answer in a nutshell is "no", paying tithing has not been proven to break the cycle of poverty and there is no objective evidence that "poverty continues from one generation to another, until people pay their tithing.'"

People here talk about the spiritual blessings of tithing, which are subjective at best, or the financial benefits of more disciplined budgeting as the result of having to carve out 10% one's income (which can be accomplished just as successfully without giving one's money to the church).

People may feel more spiritual, humble, blessed, etc. by paying tithing, and some will offer anecdotal stories of how they got a surprise/unexpected check in the mail after paying tithing, but if you are looking for objective evidence of generational poverty being alleviated by donating 10% of one's income to a church, then you will not find it here.

This statement by Nelson is much like the message delivered by prosperity gospel preachers, who teach that members will be blessed with material wealth if they donate money to their church. It is hogwash and not supported by anything other than anecdotal notions and the warm, fuzzy feelings of the spirit, but not actual material wealth.

I agree 100%. And since this cannot be proven, it is misleading for President Nelson to claim that tithing ends poverty cycles.

[Ouagadougou]

7 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I assume you read my post. Are you then stating that a family that learns to budget, plan for the future, focus on education and learning best practices does not lead to a high standard of living?  Are you also stating that an individual who engages God intimately in their lives does not lead to a more spiritual way of life?

I don't see how paying tithing does not lead to a better way of life even without the spiritual side - however, to me the spiritual side makes it infinitely better. 

Almost half of Kenya is below the poverty line, so they might not have acess to the same opportunities that exist in many other countries.  Engaging one's own God and paying tithing might be beneficial for some, but it still doesn't end poverty cycles as President Nelson claims.  

[The Nehor]

37 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Once again, "promised spiritual blessings," but how does paying tithing end actual poverty cycles in communities across the globe in terms of money?  

If President Nelson were to tell the UN, UNICEF, UNESCO, etc., that a 10% tithe to the LDS Church would help end poverty cycles, he would probably be laughed at because it isn't an effective tool to fight poverty (quite the opposite really).  People can claim the "spiritual blessings all they want, but it's ridiculous to believe that it ends actual, real-life poverty, IMO.  

A study would be easy: Subject A paid 10% of his/her income every year and never got any of that money back, but he/she gained "spiritual blessings." 

Because sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven and that does not discount the temporal. While I despise the prosperity gospel as preached by crazy people about how God wants people to be wealthy I believe God often elevates his people out of poverty.

How?

Through blessing businesses or crops, through fortuitous events that appear to just be luck, through opening doors to education, through leading people to better employment, through inspiring with good financial and economic idea, and many others,

And your UN program would not work. It is not about the money. It is about the faith that powers the giving.

[pogi]

25 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

The problem is, all of that $ is given to the church and won't be re-utilized within local communities...it all goes to the church and most of that money is not used for humanitarian purposes.

Yes, that money is often re-utilized in local communities in building new facilities, etc.  I guarantee that the Church spends more money in developing countries than it takes in.

Either way, you discount God's ability to sustain abundance from poverty.  Again, think of the loaves and the fishes.  

[Ouagadougou]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Because sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven and that does not discount the temporal. While I despise the prosperity gospel as preached by crazy people about how God wants people to be wealthy I believe God often elevates his people out of poverty.

How?

Through blessing businesses or crops, through fortuitous events that appear to just be luck, through opening doors to education, through leading people to better employment, through inspiring with good financial and economic idea, and many others,

And your UN program would not work. It is not about the money. It is about the faith that powers the giving.

You despise the prosperity gospel, but at the same time, embrace President Nelson's message that tithing ends poverty cycles?  His claim is the ebodiment of the prosperity gospel in many ways: pay tithing and your poor communities will flourish and rid itself of poverty.  

[SettingDogStar]

28 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

I was an active member for many years of my life and paid an honest tithe.  Now, however, I have a different point of view and think that paying tithing, is in no way, an effective tool to end poverty cycles.  People can claim the spiritual blessings of tithing all they want, but to claim that there is a monetary benefit for poor people in the world is ridiculous, IMO.  BTW, I try to give assistance to the poor and needy.  The irony is that it is the church, IMO, robbing the poor, by requiring they give 10% of their income.  

I understanding it’s your opinion, but since the Lord commanded it then it’s techincally the Lord “Robbing the Poor”.

[Avatar4321]

54 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Open rebellion? IMO, it's a pretty outlandish claim that tithing ends poverty, and I think many people across the world would agree with me.  

Not if you know the Lord

[Ouagadougou]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yes, that money is often re-utilized in local communities in building new facilities, etc.  I guarantee that the Church spends more money in developing countries than it takes in.

Either way, you discount God's ability to sustain abundance from poverty.  Again, think of the loaves and the fishes.  

Given the amount of money the church has, I highly doubt that it spends more on developing countries than it takes in annually.  

 

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2017/10/14/historian-digs-into-the-hidden-world-of-mormon-finances-shows-how-church-went-from-losing-money-to-making-money-lots-of-it/

[Ouagadougou]

5 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

I understanding it’s your opinion, but since the Lord commanded it then it’s techincally the Lord “Robbing the Poor”.

Ok.  And you can make that claim and that it is a sacrifice and has "spiritual benefits" for some, but don't tell me it ends poverty cycles.  

Edited October 19, 2018 by Ouagadougou

[pogi]

1 minute ago, Ouagadougou said:

Given the amount of money the church has, I highly doubt that it spends more on developing countries than it takes in annually.  

 

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2017/10/14/historian-digs-into-the-hidden-world-of-mormon-finances-shows-how-church-went-from-losing-money-to-making-money-lots-of-it/

No, I am saying it probably spends more in those countries than it takes in from those countries.

[Avatar4321]

41 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

IMO, I personally doubt that Jesus cares if a poor person or anyone really gives money to a church (as a spiritual protection cost or entry fee to enter the temple) that already has billions of dollars.  

So Jesus called His disciples attention to the widows mite because he didn’t care about it?

[Ouagadougou]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

No, I am saying it probably spends more in those countries than it takes in from those countries.

I guess we will never know because the church isn't transparent with its financial data and each country could be very different.  

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

The Lord has promised that if we follow His commands we will prosper in the land.

and we will

I reject the prosperity gospel for the vile satanic heresy that it is.