Stimulus Check

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, mnn727 said:

Income has different meaning to different people and NO ONE is allowed to define it for anyone but themselves.

While I don't believe the notion of income is infinitely malleable, I readily concede that devout individuals, acting in good faith, may come to different determinations about what constitutes income in some particular circumstance. 

And I don't judge people based on those choices.

In fact, in real life, I usually consciously avoid discussions about tithing once it starts getting into the weeds of what constitutes income - especially now that I'm serving in a ward leadership position.

But on an anonymous message board where someone asks if I personally am going to pay tithing on something in particular, I don't have a problem with saying what I plan on doing either.

 

[bluebell]

38 minutes ago, rongo said:

I don't think I was going against counsel. When a member **asks** his bishop for counsel on paying tithing, I think a bishop giving that counsel is within the letter and the spirit of the handbook. They wouldn't have asked if they didn't want to know my view. I didn't go out of my way to impose my view on tithing on members who weren't seeking counsel. 

This is what it says in the general handbook under tithing. The underlined section is what I'm referring to by going against counsel:

"The First Presidency has written: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970)"

[strappinglad]

Remember that this money comes from money that had to be borrowed from somewhere. Doe one pay tithing on the amount of a loan? If you don't think you are not going to be paying it back over many years , you are sadly mistaken. And several times over. 

Edited April 15, 2020 by strappinglad

[bluebell]

Just now, strappinglad said:

Remember that this money comes from money that had to be borrowed from somewhere. Doe one pay tithing on the amount of a loan? 

If I'm not the one paying it back, then yes, we usually do.  

[Rain]

28 minutes ago, rongo said:

Me, personally, yes on gift cards (value --- e.g., $5 for a $50 Target card, since there is no functional difference between $50 cash and the use of the card). If given an item as a gift, no. 

ETA: As I think about this, I think I've gone for simplicity. A gift card is easy to calculate; value of an item given to me is complicated.  

See that's where I am ok with figuring things out.  You may do it on simplicity.  Other people may do it on how much stress it causes them (for example it may cause someone stress/guilt not to pay on a gift that is not cash based like a book or a coat.  

I do mine more on what feels right and if nothing does I will pray about it.  

28 minutes ago, rongo said:

No.

Not applicable. I can't remember ever sending away for a rebate check. It never seemed worth the trouble to fill out the info and wait 12 weeks for a $5 check.  But, we're not big spenders, on the sorts of things that come with substantial rebates, by any means. We can't be, with our financial situation. 

As a stay at home mom when we were making less than a starting Utah teacher (and other times) and not having enough to be a big spender either I did a LOT of rebates.  I found the little rebates really added up and it took very little time when the kids were napping etc. If you felt it wasn't worth your time I understand, but it really doesn't have anything to do with being a big spender.  Rebating and couponing on items I would normally buy anyway helped keep us afloat.  Now that we are more comfortable I don't work on it as much. 

Anyway, I did try to listen to the Spirit about paying tithing on those things.  Not that I prayed about every 25 cent coupon, but more I checked in at different times in my life to see what I should do with them generally.    

 

28 minutes ago, rongo said:

As for, say, cars, we only have bought used cars, and we drive them until they have 250,000 + miles on them, historically. So, we've never even had the "dealer rebate" or anything like that. 

Sounds like us.  We don't really look at the mileage, but more of if the repairs are costing so much that we could buy another used car for less.  We just barely got my husband a new car after he was in the old one for 20 years.  My last car I had planned on driving for another decade or so, but it was totaled in an accident.  We figure we would still keep the van even though the damage look bad, but the damage to the engine put the repairs much larger than it made sense doing.  

[Rain]

51 minutes ago, Calm said:

No one did apparently.

You might be right.  I could have sworn I saw it at one point after a discussion about it at some time on some board.  LOL  But I wasn't sure and so worded it the way I did.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Amulek said:

No, it's supposed to be based on "one-tenth of [your] interest annually," which is understood to mean income. ......................

"Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase" Deut 14:22,28

"pay one-tenth of all their interest annually" D&C 119:4

1970 First Presidency Letter:

"The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay 'one-tenth of all their interest annually,' which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this."  19 March 1970; Handbook 1, 14.4.1.

We have discussed this issue many times on this board.  It is clear that the individual member gets to decide what these principles mean.  However, it is also clear that a farmer may have no increase at all during a particular season.  Perhaps next year will be better.  On the other hand, someone who works for wages, can see exactly what his income is.  Everyone may act accordingly -- based on his own understanding and conscience.  It is not the place of a bishop to tell a member how to figure his tithe, and I have never had a bishop advise me on that.  I did teach a lesson on tithing in my HP Group years ago, and I focused on that 1970 First Presidency Letter.

[Robert F. Smith]

What about winnings in an old folks home bingo game?  If the prize for the winner is candy bars, do you pay ten percent of the value of the bars?

[rongo]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

This is what it says in the general handbook under tithing. The underlined section is what I'm referring to by going against counsel:

"The First Presidency has written: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970)"

I think there are two types of members. Those who read this and think that, because it says the underlined parts as written, a leader should simply repeat himself like an attorney worried about liability and repeat over and over, "It says in the handbook 'No one is justified in making any other statement than this.'" But what do you think personally? "Let me repeat what it says . . ."

Then, there are those who know this, but also want their bishop's counsel; also want to know what he says and what he thinks. I know that many express here very little esteem for what he might think or have to say as their bishop, but in my experience, most members take that very seriously (which is very humbling, and which is why this must be used carefully). 

It is annoying to these members to have the legal eagle types refuse to give their counsel, even when sought for and asked for. 

It's similar to the two types of LDS teachers when asked about the Church in class. Those who will only ever say, "I can't talk about religion in school," and those who (in my view) diplomatically and appropriately go ahead and answer direct questions asked of them (without getting hijacked or side-tracking the class. Sometimes "Let's talk about this later, if you want to" is all you can do). 

I think people who ask for counsel want to know what their leader thinks (they wouldn't have asked, otherwise). To slavishly and legalistically just act the part of an attorney saying over and over "I have no other comment at this time" is obnoxious. I don't think answering questions about counsel is contra to Church counsel and policy, and I don't think those seeking it think that it is, either. I think it engenders more trust as a leader to be the second type.  

[bluebell]

I don’t think that God cares if we pay tithing on net or gross, but I do think He cares about whether or not we sincerely believe we are keeping the law of tithing and paying an honest tithe. 

 

[LoudmouthMormon]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Tithing is supposed to be based on your increase.  Is this tax credit an increase?  Or is it a charitable contribution from the U.S. Gov't?  Or is it like unemployment compensation?  Do we ordinarily pay tithing on charity that is given to us (do we pay tithing on food from the bishop's storehouse, or on checks we receive from the bishop to pay our rent, or fill up our gas tank, etc?)?  Do we pay tithing on unemployment compensation checks from the State?  If we receive an expensive birthday gift, or a wedding gift, or just an engagement ring, do we pay tithing on those items?  Suppose our rich daddy gives us a new car -- do we then pay tithing on it?  Daddy paid the taxes, sans doute.  And the IRS always demands the tax on any big gifts from a casino or game show, be they in kind or in cash.  So do we pay tithing on paramutuel betting or casino winnings?

Yes, no, no, never had any of that happen, yes, yes-except for the engagement ring, never happened, and you can if you want to but I don't gamble.

(pretty easy questions)

Edited April 15, 2020 by LoudmouthMormon

[Thinking]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

It's actually an advance credit on 2020 income taxes. It is in effect a tax reduction on 2020 income.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/advisor/2020/04/06/dont-worry-the-1200-stimulus-payment-wont-cut-into-your-tax-refund-next-april/#22ab52cb5ea8

[Peacefully]

My husband and I discussed this and we have differing opinions, therefore, he will pay tithing on his check and I probably won’t. However, if I do not pay tithing on it I plan to pay the same amount as a fast offering because I feel strongly that I should help those in our ward and stake who are in need because of this pandemic. Heck, I could get laid off tomorrow and I may need help. I try not to nickel and dime the Lord because I have seen so many blessings come from paying tithing and fast offerings.

[Tacenda]

21 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

My husband and I discussed this and we have differing opinions, therefore, he will pay tithing on his check and I probably won’t. However, if I do not pay tithing on it I plan to pay the same amount as a fast offering because I feel strongly that I should help those in our ward and stake who are in need because of this pandemic. Heck, I could get laid off tomorrow and I may need help. I try not to nickel and dime the Lord because I have seen so many blessings come from paying tithing and fast offerings.

This is one thing I can get behind! Because at this time there are a lot of people needing help, and I know of someone whose dad is the bishop and helping people with their bills, right on! 

[RevTestament]

11 hours ago, Thinking said:

According to my understanding, this credit does not affect next year's taxes.

As I understand it, it will offset/decrease next year's tax credits, but will not be taxable. I'm not sure the law is quite clear on the latter.

[Damien the Leper]

I'm curious. LDS pay their 10% of their gross. Unemployment is not an income but assistance based on earned income. Why tithe on assistance that isn't an actual income after tithing on already earned income? That seems like tithing on a tithe of some sort. Sounds more like greed.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Valentinus said:

I'm curious. LDS pay their 10% of their gross. Unemployment is not an income but assistance based on earned income. Why tithe on assistance that isn't an actual income after tithing on already earned income? That seems like tithing on a tithe of some sort. Sounds more like greed.

???

[The Nehor]

COVID Church Donation Story

A few weeks ago the Stake Presidency here sent out a general email about things that are going on and what to do and not to do during the current lockdown. Pretty basic and one paragraph suggested to please use the online donation system if possible because it is more difficult for the Bishopric to count and deposit tithing safely. I kind of just glanced over it and thought nothing of it other than online donations being a good idea right now.

In the current climate of panic though more then a few people contacted their bishops and worriedly asked if they needed people to donate more somehow suspecting the comment was a veiled reference to some kind of total church fiscal meltdown was imminent and that the church was about to go under if they did not help it RIGHT NOW.

I am going to be more careful in my communication going forward. I did not realize how fragile this situation has made some people.  

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

COVID Church Donation Story

A few weeks ago the Stake Presidency here sent out a general email about things that are going on and what to do and not to do during the current lockdown. Pretty basic and one paragraph suggested to please use the online donation system if possible because it is more difficult for the Bishopric to count and deposit tithing safely. I kind of just glanced over it and thought nothing of it other than online donations being a good idea right now.

In the current climate of panic though more then a few people contacted their bishops and worriedly asked if they needed people to donate more somehow suspecting the comment was a veiled reference to some kind of total church fiscal meltdown was imminent and that the church was about to go under if they did not help it RIGHT NOW.

I am going to be more careful in my communication going forward. I did not realize how fragile this situation has made some people.  

I guess they didn't get the memo of the church's holdings, maybe it's down a bit, but not enough that the church needs help. Hopefully they don't suffer and send more than that is asked.

[Jeanne]

Where tithing is not applicable to me, my refunds will help our poor food pantry in town! 

[Scott Lloyd]

19 hours ago, Amulek said:

Yes. Tithing is paid based on income regardless of whether or not the government happens to tax that income. 

 

I agree with this, but I don’t think the stimulus payment will be taxed. 

[Scott Lloyd]

 

20 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Can I get tithing credits for all the losses I will incur ? Didn't think so. 

Losses are a part of life.
 

I view any windfall that comes to me (that does not constitute ill-gotten gain, such as theft or gambling winnings) as a blessing from God, and I treat it accordingly, including paying tithing on it. 

 

To me, whether I view it as a tithable blessing, so to speak, is a matter separate and apart from whether I think I will incur losses later. It may be that the windfall is the Lord’s way of blessing me in some measure against losses to come. If so, being stingy about whether I pay tithing on it would amount to ingratitude if not a lack of faith. 

Edited April 15, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Danzo]

50 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I guess they didn't get the memo of the church's holdings, maybe it's down a bit, but not enough that the church needs help. Hopefully they don't suffer and send more than that is asked.

How dare you criticize those who send more than is asked, You have no right!

I really wish people who don't pay tithing would stop telling people who do pay tithing how to do it. 

 

I have never suffered from sending more than is asked.  

I have always been blessed for it, Even when I was homeless with four children, I paid tithing and fast offerings and was glad I did it and would do it again.

Maybe you should go back in time and criticize that poor widow who gave up her two mites.  Should make you feel better. 

[Scott Lloyd]

20 hours ago, mnn727 said:

Income has different meaning to different people and NO ONE is allowed to define it for anyone but themselves.

It’s not wrong to have an opinion or to offer it when asked. 
 

How is getting indignant over an opinion that one disagrees with qualitatively different from presuming to define for another what constitutes income? 
 

Answer: It’s not qualitatively different. In neither instance is offering the opinion, pro or con, infringing on anyone’s rights. 

Edited April 15, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Maureen]

22 minutes ago, Danzo said:

How dare you criticize those who send more than is asked, You have no right!... 

She wasn't criticizing anyone. Just hoping that people don't suffer by giving away too much when they need it themselves.

M.