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Everything posted by Judd

  1. This was what I thought was an interesting irony/parallel back 10 years or so ago with Dehlin, when he was attempting to stop the Greg Smith essay from being published. I believe at that time he had been swinging back to staying in the church and was meeting with his SP, and at least his superficial explanation was that he wasn’t concerned about being attacked personally, but was rather more concerned about the methodology employed and it being damaging to the church to be associated with doing something he perceived as wrong/counterproductive. Whether that was sincere or not (I don’t doubt that both motives were at play, just a question of how much each contributed can be debated), it seemed obvious that, in a way, he now found himself in a situation that he had long criticized the actions of others who found themselves in similar scenarios. For some people, this can be an eye-opening experience as they go through it and can allow them to have more sympathy with others when perhaps previously they couldn’t. It didn’t seem that Dehlin’s emotions ever even let him acknowledge that irony and it seemed his insight and ability to self-reflect in the issue and it’s irony was no different.
  2. I was noticing that, too, but it’s the Abidjan, Ivory Coast temple. It’s the same rendering and has the silver steeple/Moroni.
  3. Indeed they are. The temple rendering for Layton was released in October 2019, Saratoga Springs in September 2019, and Red Cliffs in April 2020. One of the most frequent arguments for the large rash of temple renderings not having a Moroni atop is either size or local customs. This would be to ignore renderings released for all subsequent Utah temples where cultural issues would not preclude this and their size would be of appropriate proportion (Orem in June of 2020, Taylorsville in August of 2020, Deseret Peak in April of 2020, Syracuse in February of 2021, Lindon in April of 2021, Smithfield in November of 2021, and now the renovation of Provo in November of 2021). To say that there is not any big trend on this would not be at all accurate, in my view. Below I've taken a chronological list of all temples (completed, under construction, or announced) where it is known what the final design is (I've removed temples planned that don't have renderings released). In gold are temples which have (or will have) a Moroni. In black are those that aren't. Two current temples (Hong Kong and Provo) are listed with appropriate qualifiers. 1 St. George Utah Temple 2 Logan Utah Temple 3 Manti Utah Temple 4 Salt Lake Temple 5 Laie Hawaii Temple 6 Cardston Alberta Temple 7 Mesa Arizona Temple 8 Idaho Falls Idaho Temple 9 Bern Switzerland Temple 10 Los Angeles California Temple 11 Hamilton New Zealand Temple 12 London England Temple 13 Oakland California Temple 14 Ogden Utah Temple 15 Provo Utah Temple (being removed) 16 Washington D.C. Temple 17 São Paulo Brazil Temple 18 Tokyo Japan Temple 19 Seattle Washington Temple 20 Jordan River Utah Temple 21 Atlanta Georgia Temple 22 Apia Samoa Temple 23 Nuku'alofa Tonga Temple 24 Santiago Chile Temple 25 Papeete Tahiti Temple 26 Mexico City Mexico Temple 27 Boise Idaho Temple 28 Sydney Australia Temple 29 Manila Philippines Temple 30 Dallas Texas Temple 31 Taipei Taiwan Temple 32 Guatemala City Guatemala Temple 33 Freiberg Germany Temple 34 Stockholm Sweden Temple 35 Chicago Illinois Temple 36 Johannesburg South Africa Temple 37 Seoul Korea Temple 38 Lima Peru Temple 39 Buenos Aires Argentina Temple 40 Denver Colorado Temple 41 Frankfurt Germany Temple 42 Portland Oregon Temple 43 Las Vegas Nevada Temple 44 Toronto Ontario Temple 45 San Diego California Temple 46 Orlando Florida Temple 47 Bountiful Utah Temple 48 Hong Kong China Temple (being removed) 49 Mount Timpanogos Utah Temple 50 St. Louis Missouri Temple 51 Vernal Utah Temple 52 Preston England Temple 53 Monticello Utah Temple 54 Anchorage Alaska Temple 55 Colonia Juárez Chihuahua Mexico Temple 56 Madrid Spain Temple 57 Bogotá Colombia Temple 58 Guayaquil Ecuador Temple 59 Spokane Washington Temple 60 Columbus Ohio Temple 61 Bismarck North Dakota Temple 62 Columbia South Carolina Temple 63 Detroit Michigan Temple 64 Halifax Nova Scotia Temple 65 Regina Saskatchewan Temple 66 Billings Montana Temple 67 Edmonton Alberta Temple 68 Raleigh North Carolina Temple 69 St. Paul Minnesota Temple 70 Kona Hawaii Temple 71 Ciudad Juárez Mexico Temple 72 Hermosillo Sonora Mexico Temple 73 Albuquerque New Mexico Temple 74 Oaxaca Mexico Temple 75 Tuxtla Gutiérrez Mexico Temple 76 Louisville Kentucky Temple 77 Palmyra New York Temple 78 Fresno California Temple 79 Medford Oregon Temple 80 Memphis Tennessee Temple 81 Reno Nevada Temple 82 Cochabamba Bolivia Temple 83 Tampico Mexico Temple 84 Nashville Tennessee Temple 85 Villahermosa Mexico Temple 86 Montreal Quebec Temple 87 San José Costa Rica Temple 88 Fukuoka Japan Temple 89 Adelaide Australia Temple 90 Melbourne Australia Temple 91 Suva Fiji Temple 92 Mérida Mexico Temple 93 Veracruz Mexico Temple 94 Baton Rouge Louisiana Temple 95 Oklahoma City Oklahoma Temple 96 Caracas Venezuela Temple 97 Houston Texas Temple 98 Birmingham Alabama Temple 99 Santo Domingo Dominican Republic Temple 100 Boston Massachusetts Temple 101 Recife Brazil Temple 102 Porto Alegre Brazil Temple 103 Montevideo Uruguay Temple 104 Winter Quarters Nebraska Temple 105 Guadalajara Mexico Temple 106 Perth Australia Temple 107 Columbia River Washington Temple 108 Snowflake Arizona Temple 109 Lubbock Texas Temple 110 Monterrey Mexico Temple 111 Campinas Brazil Temple 112 Asunción Paraguay Temple 113 Nauvoo Illinois Temple 114 The Hague Netherlands Temple 115 Brisbane Australia Temple 116 Redlands California Temple 117 Accra Ghana Temple 118 Copenhagen Denmark Temple 119 Manhattan New York Temple 120 San Antonio Texas Temple 121 Aba Nigeria Temple 122 Newport Beach California Temple 123 Sacramento California Temple 124 Helsinki Finland Temple 125 Rexburg Idaho Temple 126 Curitiba Brazil Temple 127 Panama City Panama Temple 128 Twin Falls Idaho Temple 129 Draper Utah Temple 130 Oquirrh Mountain Utah Temple 131 Vancouver British Columbia Temple 132 The Gila Valley Arizona Temple 133 Cebu City Philippines Temple 134 Kyiv Ukraine Temple 135 San Salvador El Salvador Temple 136 Quetzaltenango Guatemala Temple 137 Kansas City Missouri Temple 138 Manaus Brazil Temple 139 Brigham City Utah Temple 140 Calgary Alberta Temple 141 Tegucigalpa Honduras Temple 142 Gilbert Arizona Temple 143 Fort Lauderdale Florida Temple 144 Phoenix Arizona Temple 145 Córdoba Argentina Temple 146 Payson Utah Temple 147 Trujillo Peru Temple 148 Indianapolis Indiana Temple 149 Tijuana Mexico Temple 150 Provo City Center Temple 151 Sapporo Japan Temple 152 Philadelphia Pennsylvania Temple 153 Fort Collins Colorado Temple 154 Star Valley Wyoming Temple 155 Hartford Connecticut Temple 156 Paris France Temple 157 Tucson Arizona Temple 158 Meridian Idaho Temple 159 Cedar City Utah Temple 160 Concepción Chile Temple 161 Barranquilla Colombia Temple 162 Rome Italy Temple 163 Kinshasa Democratic Republic of the Congo Temple 164 Fortaleza Brazil Temple 165 Port-au-Prince Haiti Temple 166 Lisbon Portugal Temple 167 Arequipa Peru Temple 168 Durban South Africa Temple 169 Winnipeg Manitoba Temple 170 Pocatello Idaho Temple Temples Under Construction Temple 171 Rio de Janeiro Brazil Temple† 172 Abidjan Ivory Coast Temple 173 Urdaneta Philippines Temple 174 Bangkok Thailand Temple 175 Yigo Guam Temple 176 Praia Cape Verde Temple 177 San Juan Puerto Rico Temple 178 Quito Ecuador Temple 179 Lima Peru Los Olivos Temple 180 Belém Brazil Temple 181 Saratoga Springs Utah Temple 182 Puebla Mexico Temple 183 Richmond Virginia Temple 184 Layton Utah Temple 185 Alabang Philippines Temple 186 Auckland New Zealand Temple 187 Feather River California Temple 188 Orem Utah Temple 189 San Pedro Sula Honduras Temple 190 Brasília Brazil Temple 191 Moses Lake Washington Temple 192 Taylorsville Utah Temple 193 Salta Argentina Temple 194 Bentonville Arkansas Temple 195 Red Cliffs Utah Temple 196 Cobán Guatemala Temple 197 Davao Philippines Temple 198 McAllen Texas Temple 199 Antofagasta Chile Temple 200 Bengaluru India Temple 201 Okinawa Japan Temple 202 Harare Zimbabwe Temple 203 Mendoza Argentina Temple 204 Deseret Peak Utah Temple 205 Tallahassee Florida Temple 206 Syracuse Utah Temple 207 Helena Montana Temple 208 Salvador Brazil Temple 209 Pittsburgh Pennsylvania Temple 210 Neiafu Tonga Temple 211 Nairobi Kenya Temple 212 Phnom Penh Cambodia Temple 213 Casper Wyoming Temple 214 Pago Pago American Samoa Temple Announced Temples Temple 220 Port Moresby Papua New Guinea Temple 221 Freetown Sierra Leone Temple 222 Bacolod Philippines Temple† 228 Lindon Utah Temple 229 Tarawa Kiribati Temple 230 Port Vila Vanuatu Temple 231 Greater Guatemala City Guatemala Temple 234 Elko Nevada Temple 235 Smithfield Utah Temple 236 Grand Junction Colorado Temple 237 Farmington New Mexico Temple 238 Burley Idaho Temple 239 Yorba Linda California Temple 240 Willamette Valley Oregon Temple 241 Belo Horizonte Brazil Temple 242 Cali Colombia Temple 243 Torreón Mexico Temple What would make this above list better is if I could list them in chronological order of when their renderings were released. Unfortunately (and thankfully), I won't be taking the time to do that. If we are to assume that this is chronological based on rendering release date (it's not), then there have been 36 temples that have released renderings since the last one with a Moroni on it, including one temple that will be having the Moroni removed (Provo). The original argument was that Moroni had not disappeared from any temple, to which the reference to Hong Kong was dismissed for being possibly cultural. An example now with Provo is dismissed in reference of being a significant rebuild. One does not have to be a believer nor critic to notice a significant trend, nor would identifying the above such trend have to imply any underlying reason anymore than pointing out what is apparent.
  4. Just an update to this. The new rendition for the Provo renovation has removed the Moroni. With the last dozens (or more) temple renditions released without Moroni, and with it being removed in renovations such as this, I believe it’s safe to assume you won’t see Moroni on any temple going forward any time soon.
  5. This conference marks the first time someone has spoken who knocked out José Canseco.
  6. While I agree with your sentiment generally, the Hong Kong temple did have its Moroni removed with this renovation. One could speculate on numerous reasons for that, and could certainly point to other renovations that haven’t removed it, but I do believe it’s possible in some future renovations you may see that.
  7. It’s not a new thing and has been going on for the past couple years. I can’t remember the last temple rendition released with a Moroni. There are only a couple temples current under construction that have a Moroni. I had presumed this was part of President Nelson’s push on an emphasis away from non-central messages. There are cultural things (not exclusive to LDS culture) where certain things or symbols are employed to convey certain meanings, but the oft repetition of them creates a bit of a ‘rote phrases and vain repetitions’ phenomenon. Moroni certainly symbolizes a number of things, as do many other temple symbols, but there’s nothing inherently eternal about the necessity of the symbol. The idea of Moroni being placed on the temple not only didn’t come from any kind of revelation, but didn’t even come from a member. That said, we have a lot of things that are good but perhaps not necessary, and I had supposed this was to break apart a bit of that association. However, the rate at which this went from nearly all temples to nearly no temples seems somewhat distracting and a bit reactionary, giving rise to the same challenges but the opposite end of the spectrum. tl;dr I’m completely open for a de-emphasis on certain non-essential imagery, but I believe there’s a bit of over-emphasis on our de-emphasis that a lot of the underlying meaning and purpose of the de-emphasis is getting missed, and replaced with a different kind of over-emphasis.
  8. Are you saying the LDS church has a standing offer? I would agree with that. The way it was worded I got the impression that you were saying the CoC and Church of Christ Temple Lot had standing offers for the church.
  9. I believe if they had standing offers for either of those two properties, they wouldn’t be owned by their current owners.
  10. They’ve still got a number of properties and I think the temple would be the thing they’d hold onto the longest, as it’s obviously the most interesting property. I believe their attachment to it significantly wanes over time as they detach themselves almost completely from the restoration. I visited back in 2012 and their promotional video emphasized much more the community that built it rather than any unique history behind it. It mentioned in passing some people reporting spiritual visions. I could be wrong, but I don’t think that video mentioned anything about the appearance of the Savior or anything else. The guy giving the tour said he moved to Kirtland because of the temple and it’s history, so I think there’s still some attachment to the history for some members, but it appears the official messaging neglects this entirely and is more interested in how a community came together to build a building. I don’t know this first hand, but I have heard a lot of people clinging to the restoration in CoC have moved over into other restoration branches.
  11. Temple predictions are pretty wild now. Since a lot of obvious places have been announced, and since a number of places are getting second temples, and since some pretty off-the-wall places are announced that couldn’t be predicted, I don’t know what to make of it. But the two places that had previously been dark horse candidates for me are hanging out on the list: Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia. Jakarta, Indonesia. My dark horse candidates are now Dublin, Ireland, and Glasgow, Scotland.
  12. I think the combination of the large expansion just completed in Provo, and a lot of MTC experiences being remote, that I’d doubt we’ll see any more building of MTCs and see more and more remote options.
  13. Interestingly, the church is apparently now doing what Taco Bell has been doing for quite some time.
  14. I don’t know who this guys is, but this Twitter account has continued to post since the news broke. Has this individual been questioned or responded publicly?
  15. I think you mean that he’s a DO, and not an MD. Osteopath is a term that refers to practitioners (not medical doctors) outside the United States, or refers to DOs from a long time ago before allopathic (MD) and osteopathic (DO) pathways became parallel. Having a root in “pseudoscience” harkens back to a day (the 1800s and early 1900s) where all medicine, via presentism, was “pseudoscience.” The separation in osteopathic and allopathic training exists at the medical school level (though in parallel), but converges in all post-graduate training (i.e. training to become a surgeon, or a pediatrician, or a radiologist, or a psychiatrist) is all the same and integrated. A similar deal was made about this when President Trump’s physician was a DO. It just so happened that President Biden’s physician is was a DO, too.
  16. It’s like 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife.
  17. I don’t believe I’ve had to attend a church meeting hi-jacked into a friends of scouting drive for at least 10 years. Tender mercies of the Lord.
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