Meeting the prerequisites & thereby attaining the promise of Moroni 10:4

[Meerkat]

On 3/1/2018 at 9:06 PM, Five Solas said:

With LDS Church growth stalling and 70+% of millennials going inactive/leaving the LDS Church by age 20 (courtesy of Mormonleaks), which of the 5 do you think represents the greatest challenge?  Or are they all equally challenging?  Or do you think it's some combination of them that present difficulty?

My take is that the world has changed in many ways since the advent of the internet.  By age 12, the average youth has viewed pornography. Many become addicted to it, which drives the Spirit away and imacts their faith in Jesus Christ. Prayer is no longer encouraged or permitted in schools, nor are the Ten Commandments taught or displayed as they used to be.  No Pledge of Allegiance.  No patriotism or pride in our country. 

Here in Washington, we have marijuana bilboards  and a marijuana warehouse going in next to a nice residential neighborhood just a few blocks away from a high school.  Opiate addiction is also a problem in and out of the Church, as is estrangement.  Divorce is a problem with Millenials, causing increased poverty and heartbreak for their children.  Debt is increasing, more pressure on families.  The Church has addiction recovery programs, but few take advantage of them.

We are optimistic.  There are many bright spots.  But we are losing a lot of Millenials.  The ones who leave the Church discover they have lost their community.  It is very hard for them to replace it.  There is a fairly large network of former members of the Church to socialize with.  Many in that group become involved in drugs, immorality and athiesm.  

We can pray the consequences of their lifestyle choices help them see there is a better way, and they come back to faith in Christ, and hopefully activity in the Church.  But if not activity, faith in Christ is an excellent place to start.

(By the way, none of this is meant to indicate that others don't leave the LDS Church for thoughtful and sincere reasons.  Your question had to do with the large number of Millenials leaving.  I believe most leave for the reasons I've stated here, but not all.)

The next two paragraphs are exerpts from a Fox News special titled "Ten Reasons Millenials are Backing Away from God."

https://www.google.com/amp/www.foxnews.com

"Just over 60 percent of millennials say that Christianity is “judgmental,” and 64 percent say that “anti-gay” best describes most churches today.

In ministry circles, it has long been reported that of youth raised in homes that were to some degree “Christian,” roughly three-quarters will jettison that faith after high school. Just under half of this number will return to some level of church involvement in their late 20s or early 30s."

So it's not just the Mormons.  But I believe when Mormons leave, because morality has been faithfully taught, many feel guilt and shame.  Maybe Millenials in other churches struggle with similar issues.  It appears the numbers leaving are comparable in other Christian faiths as well as the Jewish religion. 

To find peace without Christ, I believe they find fault with Church History, the Church, their parents, homophobia, and the idea of a loving Heavenly Father in a cruel world.  If that is wrong, and they can convince themselves there is no God, there is no reason to feel guilt or pain.  Drugs and sex out of wedlock aid in the anesthetizing process, in my opinion.  And they turn away from siblings, other family and good friends because they are uncomfortable with their values.

I believe it is a fulfillment of scriptures we have discussed in other threads here recently such as Once Saved Always Saved.

Anne Graham Lotz, daughter of Billy Graham, was interviewed just after 9-11. I believe what she says is also true, especially of the Millenials.  This is a copy of what she said, verified through Snopes:

Jane Clayson: I've heard people say, those who are religious, those who are not, if God is good, how could God less this happen? To that, you say?

Anne Graham Lotz: I say God is also angry when he sees something like this. I would say also for several years now Americans in a sense have shaken their fist at God and said, God, we want you out of our schools, our government, our business, we want you out of our marketplace. And God, who is a gentleman, has just quietly backed out of our national and political life, our public life. Removing his hand of blessing and protection. We need to turn to God first of all and say, God, we're sorry we have treated you this way and we invite you now to come into our national life. We put our trust in you. We have our trust in God on our coins, we need to practice it.

Jane Clayson: This event has changed us forever. I know you believe that. Going forward, as a nation, what do you say about that?

Anne Graham Lotz: Well, I pray that God will use this event to change us forever in a positive way. And that will strengthen our faith in him. I thought of all those people who have died in this tragedy. It doesn't matter right now what political affiliation they had or what denomination they belong to or what religion or what the color of their skin was or their stock portfolio.

What matters is their relationship with God. I would like to see Americans begin to focus on some of the primary things and some of the things that are more important than just, you know, entertainment and pleasure and making more money.

 

THAT'S WHAT I BELIEVE IS HAPPENING TO THE MILLENIALS IN AND OUT OF THE LDS CHURCH.  IT IS A SIGN OF THE TIMES.

MEERKAT

Edited March 3, 2018 by Meerkat

[Meerkat]

11 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

.There are many many religious texts out there... do we need to read them all to find out religious truth, or can we hold to the religious truth we already know and not read all those books? How much time do LDS spend reading other religions' books?

Actually, the LDS faith is the only one I am aware of that states we are led by a living prophet, and this can be verified with a direct revelation from God.  I read many books from other religions.  When I asked God if the Book of Mormon was true, my search was over.

Before baptism, I asked the Lutheran minister if there was anything I was missing in the Lutheran Church (that I was raised in.) He said "The problem with the Mormons is they think they have the answers to all of life's questions.  And nobody does.  When I was in the Navy, I knew several Mormons and they all belonged to the John Birch Society.  And I don't like the John Birch Society."  

My question had to do with discerning if the Lutheran Church was true.  I heard no such testimony.

I visited with the Catholic Priest at Campus Christian Ministries in Bellingham.  I told him I was seriously considering baptism into the LDS Church.  Did he have anything to tell me about the Catholic Church to cause me to reconsider.

He was a kindly man.  He told me "The Mormon religion appeals to a ghetto mentality.  Maybe that's what you need in your life at this time." No encouratement to read anything Catholic or consider it to be God's church.

I felt strongly my prayer about the Book of Mormon was answered by God.  I was baptized and never looked back.  I have always admired the Catholics and all they do for the poor.  My Mormon daughter teaches Spanish in a Catholic school in New Orleans, and loves the prayers, friendship and the fellowship.  But she read the Book of Mormon and got her joyful answer from God.  I have never heard anyone but the Mormons ask me to not take their word for it, but pray to know if the Church is true.  And my prayer was answered.

I say bring all the good that you have with you.  It will not be lost.  And add to it more good.  You won't regret it.  The 400 pages is not the main thing.  It is the Holy Ghost answering your prayers as you read it.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Meerkat

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I have looked at parts of the Book of Mormon but have not read it through. It is asking quite a bit of someone who is a strong and faithful believer in one religion to read another religion's 400 page sacred text with the intent of asking God if it is true. If someone were wavering in their faith, or didn't have a faith at all, then that would make more sense.

There are many many religious texts out there... do we need to read them all to find out religious truth, or can we hold to the religious truth we already know and not read all those books? How much time do LDS spend reading other religions' books?

If one wants to discuss with, comment on, question, contend against, and debate someone else’s faith, seems to me he should at least have read their primary sources. Otherwise, he doesn’t have much credibility.

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

If one wants to discuss with, comment on, question, contend against, and debate someone else’s faith, seems to me he should at least have read their primary sources. Otherwise, he doesn’t have much credibility.

I agree with all of the above except "discuss with" and/or "question" if this is meant in a noncritical way, meaning to share or gain information.  If it is meant in a challenging way, to question the credibility...then, yes, I believe one should read the primary texts or sources of the faith one is challenging...even if such things appear to be ridiculous.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Calm

[Spammer]

8 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

You did receive a spiritual confirmation, but didn't recognize it...

Here’s what really happened. After reading the Book of Mormon, I prayed to ask God if it was true. But -

I wasn’t truly sincere.

I lacked faith in Christ.

I didn’t really want an answer, because that would bring responsibility I wasn’t willing to accept.

I was born into the church and raised in Utah, surrounded by Mormons. It’s easier for converts to detect the spirit.

I secretly wanted to drink coffee and beer or look at porn.

I had committed a sin that I never went to the bishop to clear up.

My parents didn’t teach me properly and created false expectations.

I did receive a witness, but didn’t recognize it. 

See what I did there? All of the above are things people have said to me to explain away my experience after I tell them I never received that witness of the Book of Mormon’s truthfulness. I appreciate your good intentions, but my experience is my experience and no one knows it like I do.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Spammer

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Spammer said:

Here’s what really happened. After reading the Book of Mormon, I prayed to ask God if it was true. But -

I wasn’t truly sincere.

I lacked faith in Christ.

I didn’t really want an answer, because that would bring responsibility I wasn’t willing to accept.

I was born into the church and raised in Utah, surrounded by Mormons. It’s easier for converts to detect the spirit.

I secretly wanted to drink coffee and beer or look at porn.

I had committed a sin that I never went to the bishop to clear up.

My parents didn’t teach me properly and created false expectations.

I did receive a witness, but didn’t recognize it. 

See what I did there? All of the above are things people have said to me to explain away my experience after I tell them I never received that witness of the Book of Mormon’s truthfulness. I appreciate your good intentions, but my experience is my experience and no one knows it like I do.

 

 

 

 

No one should e interpreting your spiritual experiences but you. No one else has the right or the stewardship. What happens is between you and God. Ignore everyone who thinks they have the right to tell you what God wants you to do. 

[cinepro]

38 minutes ago, bluebell said:

No one should e interpreting your spiritual experiences but you. No one else has the right or the stewardship. What happens is between you and God. Ignore everyone who thinks they have the right to tell you what God wants you to do. 

With all due respect, the foundation of the LDS Church (and many other religions) is the contention that we can tell other people how to interpret their "spiritual experiences." 

If missionaries and parents started teaching investigators and/ or children that the feelings they are getting might be something called "the Holy Ghost", but there could be other logical explanations as well and they should investigate all the possibilities before making a lifelong commitment, it could be a disaster for baptism numbers.

 

[Jane_Doe]

On 3/2/2018 at 10:00 AM, Jeanne said:

I am non LDS..reading the Book of Mormon again....would you say this to me?  My answer to the poll was just not LDS...but I met those 5 standards and received a very real witiness to me on a hill in prayer...I cried and felt the forgiveness of my sins..what does one say to me?  That I lost the spirit??  That as a good person..I live in the dark? Or did the omission of church elders deceive me and disturb me enough to just question..and to question..separated me from the church...but not the Savior.

I believe that person should be willing to listen to the Spirit and do as He instructs.  Of course a person should diligently prays, seeking God, and honestly have be wiling to do what He commands (no predetermined "I'm only going to listen to this answer").   Assuming a person has done this, they should do as He commands.  If a person receives a different answer than me, then they should still do it.  And be happy along that path, finding joy in Christ.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[Jeanne]

3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

I believe that person should be willing to listen to the Spirit and do as He instructs.  Of course a person should diligently prays, seeking God, and honestly have be wiling to do what He commands (no predetermined "I'm only going to listen to this answer").   Assuming a person has done this, they should do as He commands.  If a person receives a different answer than me, then they should still do it.  And be happy along that path, finding joy in Christ.

Thank you so much.  Your thoughts make me feel relevant and my voice heard. 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Jeanne

[bluebell]

50 minutes ago, cinepro said:

With all due respect, the foundation of the LDS Church (and many other religions) is the contention that we can tell other people how to interpret their "spiritual experiences." 

If missionaries and parents started teaching investigators and/ or children that the feelings they are getting might be something called "the Holy Ghost", but there could be other logical explanations as well and they should investigate all the possibilities before making a lifelong commitment, it could be a disaster for baptism numbers.

 

I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear. I’m posting from my phone and it’s annoying to type on.

I didn’t mean we shouldn’t tell others what we believe about the church or our own spiritual experiences.  I didn’t mean that we should not teach or share our beliefs.  

What I meant is that random posters don’t have the authority to tell someone who has sincerely sought His wisdom that God is not guiding them in their relationship with Christ.

Maybe they have been deceived and maybe they haven’t, but random poster has zero stewardship to discern either way.

As for teaching on a mission, I served a mission, and if we met someone who told us that they believed that they were exactly where God wanted them we never replied, “you’re wrong, God did not tell you that”.  

 

 

 

 

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

I agree with all of the above except "discuss with" and/or "question" if this is meant in a noncritical way, meaning to share or gain information.  If it is meant in a challenging way, to question the credibility...then, yes, I believe one should read the primary texts or sources of the faith one is challenging...even if such things appear to be ridiculous.

No, it was not meant to be casual informative conversations.

[Meerkat]

On 3/3/2018 at 8:48 AM, cinepro said:

With all due respect, the foundation of the LDS Church (and many other religions) is the contention that we can tell other people how to interpret their "spiritual experiences." 

If missionaries and parents started teaching investigators and/ or children that the feelings they are getting might be something called "the Holy Ghost", but there could be other logical explanations as well and they should investigate all the possibilities before making a lifelong commitment, it could be a disaster for baptism numbers.

 

And some prayers may take longer than others to recognize an answer.

[mfbukowski]

On 3/3/2018 at 4:53 AM, Spammer said:

Here’s what really happened. After reading the Book of Mormon, I prayed to ask God if it was true. But -

I wasn’t truly sincere.

I lacked faith in Christ.

I didn’t really want an answer, because that would bring responsibility I wasn’t willing to accept.

I was born into the church and raised in Utah, surrounded by Mormons. It’s easier for converts to detect the spirit.

I secretly wanted to drink coffee and beer or look at porn.

I had committed a sin that I never went to the bishop to clear up.

My parents didn’t teach me properly and created false expectations.

I did receive a witness, but didn’t recognize it. 

See what I did there? All of the above are things people have said to me to explain away my experience after I tell them I never received that witness of the Book of Mormon’s truthfulness. I appreciate your good intentions, but my experience is my experience and no one knows it like I do.

 

Quite honestly it has never made sense to me that God, who teaches us individually and who provides us with opportunities to come to Him, and who customizes our challenges to lead us forward, that this Being who knows all, would not allow us to choose our paths back to Him.

Yes I think there is "one true path" in the sense that there IS a plan and program which is in almost an objective sense, which is best for humanity as a whole.  There are universal truths which DO in fact reflect the best rules for mankind- arguably for example the Golden Rule is one of these.

On the other hand, due to the vagaries of our individual cultures and experiences the symbolic representation of the Plan may not work for everyone.

But of course God has provided a way for us to continue to learn even after death, when all will be clearer.  But of course even this belief is pretty much exclusive to the LDS people.

There are many reasons, like this one, which I think reflect the ultimate "correctness" of the LDS view as a kind of meta-religion - a religion about religions, since we actually provide for learning and individual agency after death.  But of course that is still part of the LDS cultural representation of the Plan

I love Orthodoxy and would probably be Orthodox myself if I did not subscribe to this meta-religious view of the LDS.  I love the mystical traditions found in Orthodoxy and lack of dogma found in Catholicism.

But all of my understanding is my personal prejudice and understanding which my personal experiences have led me.  I know this is the best possible path for me, but I think it is blatantly clear that God teaches each of his children the path that each individually needs and find it odd that LDS people who  supposedly understand the need for personal revelation and having their own testimonies would somehow deny that a testimony to another path would be "invalid" for an individual questioning God for themselves.

It is as if they are saying that Moroni 10:5 and James 1:5 and other scriptures ONLY apply to LDS people and no one else. 

No one else can "ask God" and get their own answers except LDS people,  even though those scriptures are supposed to apply to all mankind.  WE superior folks can ask God and get it right but no one else can because God just loves us more.  Sounds like predestination to me.

I find that totally absurd.

[mfbukowski]

On 3/3/2018 at 9:11 AM, Jane_Doe said:

I believe that person should be willing to listen to the Spirit and do as He instructs.  Of course a person should diligently prays, seeking God, and honestly have be wiling to do what He commands (no predetermined "I'm only going to listen to this answer").   Assuming a person has done this, they should do as He commands.  If a person receives a different answer than me, then they should still do it.  And be happy along that path, finding joy in Christ.

Yep, that's the whole deal as I see it too.

Either Alma and Moroni and James apply to all humanity or they don't.  If they are the words of God they apply to everyone - and nowhere does it say "LDS Only!" in those scriptures.

But on the other hand we are the only ones who HAVE those scriptures, at least Alma and Moroni

And to me that makes it doubly weird that some LDS want to make those scriptures our exclusive property applying only to us.  They work with converts as long as they get the "right answer" and somehow that makes the converts who DO get the question right, apparently predestined to find the "truth".

"Please help the missionaries find those who are seeking the gospel" and apparently forget about those who are not.  The scriptures do not apply to them.

Kind of weird if you ask me.

Those folks can hear the Holy Ghost as long as they are seeking the LDS gospel but without the "gift of the Holy Ghost" which remains permanently with LDS folks, and not others, they will lose the Holy Ghost.   Where is THAT in the scriptures?

Maybe that is worth a thread.

But I ain't buying it.  Where is that in the temple recommend interview that I have to believe that?

Acts 10

Quote

 

44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the aGentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

 

 

Even on LDS org there seem to be no scriptures which describe our view of the Gift of the Holy Ghost being scriptural.

Please correct me.  I want scriptures which say that the "Gift of the Holy Ghost" - constant companionship of the HG- is exclusive to members only.

Edited March 8, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Meerkat]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Quite honestly it has never made sense to me that God, who teaches us individually and who provides us with opportunities to come to Him, and who customizes our challenges to lead us forward, that this Being who knows all, would not allow us to choose our paths back to Him.

Yes I think there is "one true path" in the sense that there IS a plan and program which is in almost an objective sense, which is best for humanity as a whole.  There are universal truths which DO in fact reflect the best rules for mankind- arguably for example the Golden Rule is one of these.

On the other hand, due to the vagaries of our individual cultures and experiences the symbolic representation of the Plan may not work for everyone.

But of course God has provided a way for us to continue to learn even after death, when all will be clearer.  But of course even this belief is pretty much exclusive to the LDS people.

There are many reasons, like this one, which I think reflect the ultimate "correctness" of the LDS view as a kind of meta-religion - a religion about religions, since we actually provide for learning and individual agency after death.  But of course that is still part of the LDS cultural representation of the Plan

I love Orthodoxy and would probably be Orthodox myself if I did not subscribe to this meta-religious view of the LDS.  I love the mystical traditions found in Orthodoxy and lack of dogma found in Catholicism.

But all of my understanding is my personal prejudice and understanding which my personal experiences have led me.  I know this is the best possible path for me, but I think it is blatantly clear that God teaches each of his children the path that each individually needs and find it odd that LDS people who  supposedly understand the need for personal revelation and having their own testimonies would somehow deny that a testimony to another path would be "invalid" for an individual questioning God for themselves.

It is as if they are saying that Moroni 10:5 and James 1:5 and other scriptures ONLY apply to LDS people and no one else. 

No one else can "ask God" and get their own answers except LDS people,  even though those scriptures are supposed to apply to all mankind.  WE superior folks can ask God and get it right but no one else can because God just loves us more.  Sounds like predestination to me.

I find that totally absurd.

I agree with much of what you said here.  Part of our growth through this life is evolving from one point of view to another based on our life experience.  I remember looking around the Chapel as a newlywed, confident that OUR children (when they came) would be quiet and reverent in Church.  Imagine our surprise when we learned that our children had minds of their own.  For that reason, I don't think it's fair to suggest that a person who may feel they know it all at age twenty five, won't change their view and become more magnanimous as they age.  There is a common saying, "If a person is not liberal when they are twenty, they have no heart.  If they are not conservative when they are forty, they have no brain."  I'm not taking sides on that statement, as I find myself drifting somewhat between those two poles as I get older.  My point is that even if I believe in my heart of hearts, there is ultimately only one way into the Celestial Kingdom, I can't dictate another person's trajectory.  Some may arrive in the path as a fifteen year old.  Others near death.  Still others, over in eternity.  And although I am a true believer in Mormon Doctrine, and don't expect anything to change that, I must realistically allow that I could be wrong.  Therefore, I believe the best course is to encourage our fellow beings in as much as they are following their best light, however measured or far away.  And I think that's a pretty common view as we get older.  Would you agree?

[Jeanne]

44 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

I agree with much of what you said here.  Part of our growth through this life is evolving from one point of view to another based on our life experience.  I remember looking around the Chapel as a newlywed, confident that OUR children (when they came) would be quiet and reverent in Church.  Imagine our surprise when we learned that our children had minds of their own.  For that reason, I don't think it's fair to suggest that a person who may feel they know it all at age twenty five, won't change their view and become more magnanimous as they age.  There is a common saying, "If a person is not liberal when they are twenty, they have no heart.  If they are not conservative when they are forty, they have no brain."  I'm not taking sides on that statement, as I find myself drifting somewhat between those two poles as I get older.  My point is that even if I believe in my heart of hearts, there is ultimately only one way into the Celestial Kingdom, I can't dictate another person's trajectory.  Some may arrive in the path as a fifteen year old.  Others near death.  Still others, over in eternity.  And although I am a true believer in Mormon Doctrine, and don't expect anything to change that, I must realistically allow that I could be wrong.  Therefore, I believe the best course is to encourage our fellow beings in as much as they are following their best light, however measured or far away.  And I think that's a pretty common view as we get older.  Would you agree?

From one who is growing older...and surprised at my own learning experiences, your post is spot on and real. 

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I agree with much of what you said here.  Part of our growth through this life is evolving from one point of view to another based on our life experience.  I remember looking around the Chapel as a newlywed, confident that OUR children (when they came) would be quiet and reverent in Church.  Imagine our surprise when we learned that our children had minds of their own.  For that reason, I don't think it's fair to suggest that a person who may feel they know it all at age twenty five, won't change their view and become more magnanimous as they age.  There is a common saying, "If a person is not liberal when they are twenty, they have no heart.  If they are not conservative when they are forty, they have no brain."  I'm not taking sides on that statement, as I find myself drifting somewhat between those two poles as I get older.  My point is that even if I believe in my heart of hearts, there is ultimately only one way into the Celestial Kingdom, I can't dictate another person's trajectory.  Some may arrive in the path as a fifteen year old.  Others near death.  Still others, over in eternity.  And although I am a true believer in Mormon Doctrine, and don't expect anything to change that, I must realistically allow that I could be wrong.  Therefore, I believe the best course is to encourage our fellow beings in as much as they are following their best light, however measured or far away.  And I think that's a pretty common view as we get older.  Would you agree?

I do because we see the wisdom of our choices as we see the results of those choices of unfold over our lifetime. That which was once a hypothesis, when lived, can over a period of years, become pure knowledge

[Meerkat]

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

I do because we see the wisdom of our choices as we see the results of those choices of unfold over our lifetime. That which was once a hypothesis, when lived, can over a period of years, become pure knowledge

As usual, well put.  I think you are describing how we get into the repentance path, like a guided missile, adjusting to a narrower and narrower path the closer we get to our destination.

[Avatar4321]

I can’t say if I ever followed the instructions step by step.

it just seemed logical to me that if God was reveal He would be able to show me His will. When I was studying I asked Him to show me the truth no matter what it was and I would follow Him.

the Spirit made it beyond clear that Joseph Smith was a prophet and the Book of Mormon was true. In fact He told me I already knew and just didn’t realize it

[Avatar4321]

On 3/2/2018 at 12:19 AM, Hamba Tuhan said:

I have honestly never engaged in this process. I read the Book of Mormon for the first time when I was 17/18 years old. Before that, I had read the entire Bible cover-to-cover. And before that, I had read the Bhagavad Gita too. It took me 10 months to complete the Book of Mormon. The experience changed me thoroughly. My faith in Christ was quickened, my ability to 'read' the world was sharpened, and according to family members, I became a much nicer person. But the shifts were all subtle to me, and I didn't really understand any of them.

At the end of Moroni 10, I literally just lay the book down. It sat there, untouched, for a number of weeks. I had a scholarship to a nice university. I had found a nice flat to live in that was close to campus. I was enjoying my last few weeks of 'rest' with my friends before launching into a new life. And I was miserable.

I couldn't figure out the source of the misery, though. Life certainly looked good. But with each passing day, a quiet, calming peace that I had grown accustomed to withered away, and I was left only with a sense of darkness and doom.

I lay in bed one night writhing in mental/spiritual agony without any clue as to its source. I decided to pray. I still remember looking at the red digits on my LED clock. It was just past 2:00 AM. On my knees, I explained to God my growing misery and asked for insight. I told Him, with a sincere heart and real intent, that if I was doing something wrong, all He had to do was correct me, and I would stop. Further, if I wasn't doing something right, all He had to do was correct me, and I would start doing it. Nothing, I assured Him, was out of the question. I just wanted to feel good again. I wanted to feel faith again.

I closed my prayer, and then, in clear and distinct words, the answer came: 'Hamba, read the Book of Mormon'. Never as humble as I think I am when I pray, I said aloud, with some frustration, 'I've already read it'. It didn't make sense to me to do something I'd already done. Then: 'Hamba, read it again'.

OK, I could do that. I got off my knees, switched on the overhead light, picked up the Book of Mormon, opened to 1 Nephi 1, and started to read. Before I could finish even the first verse, the peace returned. It was immediate and overwhelming. My heart was filled with an overflowing love for God and for people ... and especially a love for my Saviour. I felt light return. I could see again. Fear left me. I wanted to shout, dance, sing. I felt divine hope. I felt encircled by the grace of God.

After that, it never really crossed my mind to ask God to tell me something I already knew for myself.

Well, I read the Bible first. It can be easier to share the Book of Mormon with people who already have some faith in Christ. But my faith in Christ really only became alive as a consequence of reading the Book of Mormon, so I don't think it's wrong for people to start there. I mostly worked with the unchurched as a missionary, and they had no trouble finding faith in Christ through the Book of Mormon. Two of my three housemates were completely agnostic before they started meeting with missionaries, and the Book of Mormon was integral to developing their faith in Christ.

But if someone told me s/he felt the need the read the Bible first, I'd be happy for that to happen. One of the women I taught as a missionary told us that as she'd prayed about the Book of Mormon, the clear answer from God was to return to the Catholic Church. So we encouraged her to do that and wished her well.

Could I share this with some friends? This is an awesome experience

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

Could I share this with some friends? This is an awesome experience

Sure. 

[Five Solas]

On 3/2/2018 at 6:14 AM, Storm Rider said:

Bless your little heart.

Let it go; you are not LDS and don't need to be. ...

I have my reasons for investing a bit of time to explore topics here, Storm Rider.  I haven't made them any secret.  You want to know something?  Mine are just as valid as yours. 

:0)

That said, this may not have been my most coherent thread. 

There were really two ideas I hoped to explore.  One was the Moroni 10:4 prerequisites.  They played a role in my own journey--driving me to make a concerted study of the Bible.  So a very personal interest there.  And in all honesty, I haven't heard much discussion from LDS on the subject.  You read, you pray, you get an answer--and if you don't then you repeat the process until you do (and I had many admonitions from LDS bishops to keep rereading that book).  But I can't recall anyone ever making a serious attempt to address the prerequisites that its author considered necessary.  I appear to be the only one who even uses the word prerequisite to describe the author's stipulations.  Where does Faith in Christ come from?  Do you just attain it by following a similar process by which you get a testimony of the Book of Mormon?  And how do you search your motives to know if you really are sincere, that your intentions are really real--that you're not corrupted/compromised by other motive, other desire (e.g., that lovely young woman you're dating has told you she won't marry outside the temple)? 

Once upon a time these were critical, unanswered questions.  Now they are merely interesting.  Are you good with that?

The second idea is closely related.  LDS make much of "agency" (which most others would call free will).  Even their Heavenly Father is bound to honor & respect it.  And while the forum may not have Dr. Louis Midgley around anymore to label Calvinism "demonic"--there's more than a little hostility towards the doctrines that came out of the Protestant Reformation from LDS.  (I once devoted a whole thread to the subject.) 

The expression, "God initiates, we respond" is anathema to LDS.  You can't have it both ways: A God who takes the initiative steps all over human agency.  But I cannot help think there has to be room for a sovereign, initiating God implicit in those prerequisites: That a person can't bootstrap herself to faith, or even to a proper motivation.  That many LDS, if they really thought about it, would have to concede the point.  (I think the poll and the division over historical Nephites points that direction.) Perhaps I'm wrong about that.  Or perhaps that's why LDS really don't care to make the Moroni 10:4 prerequisites their focus, or even call them prerequisites.  To do so puts at risk a value/doctrine they hold even more dear.

Pure speculation.  But hopefully it aids understanding.  And a small debt of gratitude to Alaris, whose thread, "The Seven Levels of Mankind" triggered these most recent thoughts. 

--Erik

___________________________________________________________

'Darling, you were wonderful, you really were quite good
I enjoyed it, though, of course, no one understood
a word of what was going on, they didn't have a clue
They couldn't understand your sense of humour like I do'

You're much too kind
I smiled with murder on my mind

--Pet Shop Boys "Yesterday, When I Was Mad"

 

[Jane_Doe]

47 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

I have my reasons for investing a bit of time to explore topics here, Storm Rider.  I haven't made them any secret.  You want to know something?  Mine are just as valid as yours. 

I clicked the link, read your reasons.  Ok, I shall help you on your quest of how to better interact with LDS people.   Actually, all of the below applies to any group of people.

47 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

 And in all honesty, I haven't heard much discussion from LDS on the subject. 

Possible point of improvement (going to abbreviate this as 'PPOI'): it helps to acknowledge people and the discussion they've had (this isn't LDS-specific, but any group of people).  In this sentence you've dismissed all the people who spent time talking to you.  This is disrespectful and discourages people from replying to you in the future.

47 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

You read, you pray, you get an answer--and if you don't then you repeat the process until you do (and I had many admonitions from LDS bishops to keep rereading that book). 

PPOI: same as above.  In fact, above it was specifically acknowledged that people do get different answers.  You're ignoring of that conversation is a disrespectful and a turn off.

47 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

.  But I can't recall anyone ever making a serious attempt to address the prerequisites that its author considered necessary.  

You, in all your time being LDS and hanging out on a LDS board, don't recall someone ever talking about asking God, having science heart / real intent, or faith in Christ?  

Fact: these subjects are talking about incredibly frequently.  Your claiming to never have heard it paints yourself as having very selective hearing, and again disregarding the vast majority of what people say.  This is disrespectful and a turn off of conversation.  

47 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

Once upon a time these were critical, unanswered questions. 

LDS perspective: *bangs head on table*.  You repeatedly ignore answers given to you, and then get upset that people quit spending their time answering-just-to-be-ignored by you?  

 

Does this help you see how to better interact with people?  

 

[Avatar4321]

Five,

when was the last time you read the Book of Mormon?

[Stargazer]

On 3/2/2018 at 5:06 AM, Five Solas said:

1. Read the Book of Mormon

2.  Ask God

3. With a sincere heart

4. With real intent

5. Having faith in Christ

Failure is not an option, if you believe Moroni.  First, you must read.  Next, you must follow with prayer while meeting his remaining 3 prerequisites.  Then the truth of the Book of Mormon will be manifested to you.  Full stop.

Therefore if the truth is not manifested, the reason is as plain as the nose on your face: One or more of the prerequisites were not met.  There is no alternate possibility.  "It’s very simple"—as President Trump is fond of saying in his press conferences.

5 possible ways to fail, and only 5.  So here is a question:  With LDS Church growth stalling and 70+% of millennials going inactive/leaving the LDS Church by age 20 (courtesy of Mormonleaks), which of the 5 do you think represents the greatest challenge?  Or are they all equally challenging?  Or do you think it's some combination of them that present difficulty?

And while we’re on the question, how exactly does one go about achieving the last three prerequisites?  Would any LDS seriously admonish an investigator to read the Bible first in order to attain “faith in Christ” prior to attempting the Book of Mormon?

--Erik

_____________________________________________

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

--H.L. Mencken

Like Hamba Tuhan, I didn't get my testimony of the Book of Mormon by this process.  Well, I did, and I didn't.  Let me explain.

By the time I got around to reading the Book of Mormon from cover to cover, just before leaving for my mission, I had been a member for some 5 years.  I had joined at age 14 (the only one of my family) without ever asking God if the Book of Mormon were true.  But I figured it was a necessary step before I could legitimately ask the people I was going to teach to do.  So, I started reading.  When I got done, I got to my knees and asked God if the Book of Mormon was true.  Nothing.  I prayed the next night and the next.  Still nothing.  I got rather upset about the lack of an answer.  Then I suddenly realized what the problem was: I already knew it was true.  From the moment my friend who had introduced me to the Church had told me about it, and told me the story of the Lamanites and Nephites, from the time the missionaries had taught me more formally about the book, and from the times we had gone over it in Sunday School, Seminary, Priesthood, Sacrament and other meetings, the book spoke to me in ways the Bible never had.  And I had had several experiences with the Spirit of God while studying and reading it over the years. Although I believed in the Bible because my great grandmother had believed and read to me out of it when I lived with her after my mother passed away, it was not a testimony, not really.  What I discovered is that I knew the Bible to be the word of God because the Book of Mormon testified of the Bible.  

In fact, my knowledge (and not mere belief) that Jesus is the Christ grows out of the Book of Mormon.  For me, the Bible was merely the informational tract about Jesus -- it is the Book of Mormon (and, to be fair, Doctrine and Covenants Sections 19 & 76) that turned my belief in Jesus Christ into a flame.

As for seriously admonishing an investigator to read the Bible first before attempting the Book of Mormon?  If that fits the situation, sure why not?  You should read the story of Irving Cohen, a Jew who joined the LDS church back during the Korean War:

http://www.mormonsandjews.org/about/storiesandspecial/IrvingCohenStory.htm