Ojibwe Chief Testifies of Book of Mormon and Calls the Church Out

[CV75]

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The seven Laws of Noah:

Not to worship idols.
Not to curse God.
Not to commit murder.
Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
Not to steal.
Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.
To establish courts of justice.

The Seven Grandfather Teachings:

Love
Respect
Bravery
Truth
Honesty
Humility
Wisdom.

Yeah, not seeing the connection here at all. The idea that this shows some ancient connection to what Noah allegedly taught is just silly.

I think the connection being sought by the Rabbi at least) between these two codes is a declaration of mutual solidarity and fidelity in these principles by the two groups -- mutual support in the spirit of ecumenical cooperation founded in the personal friendship of the two men. 

[california boy]

15 hours ago, webbles said:

They could be like the Beta Israel who are considered Jewish but with very little genetic proof.  Per https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_Israel

 

Of course you can believe what you want. But that doesn’t really square up with the Book of Mormon narrative of the beliefs of Church prophets who consistently taught that Native American Indians were descendants of Lamanites. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think the connection being sought by the Rabbi at least) between these two codes is a declaration of mutual solidarity and fidelity in these principles by the two groups -- mutual support in the spirit of ecumenical cooperation founded in the personal friendship of the two men. 

Probaby true but that is not the way some people are spinning it.

[mfbukowski]

17 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The seven Laws of Noah:

Not to worship idols.
Not to curse God.
Not to commit murder.
Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
Not to steal.
Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.
To establish courts of justice.

The Seven Grandfather Teachings:

Love
Respect
Bravery
Truth
Honesty
Humility
Wisdom.

Yeah, not seeing the connection here at all. The idea that this shows some ancient connection to what Noah allegedly taught is just silly.

Sigh.

Different language games using different words for the same/similar content.

Quote

Not to worship idols.
Not to curse God.
Not to commit murder.
Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
Not to steal.

Maybe sound just a little like the 10 commandments?

Wouldn't "courts of justice" include problems between neighbors including "coveting" their possessions and the results thereof?

AND now since we are including the Book of Mormon, God's Plan for his children would include the morality found in the BOM AND the New Testament, RIGHT? (as they say at BYU), SO the whole morality paradigm now also includes what we might call the "Two Great Commandents", 1- Love God and 2- Love thy Neighbor as thyself:

Quote

 

The Seven Grandfather Teachings:

Love
Respect
Bravery
Truth
Honesty
Humility
Wisdom.

 

So put the two together and you pretty much have the entire moral code of Christianity.  Yes, some minor variations, but overall, AMAZINGLY SIMILAR. 

If you don't see it you don't see it.

MY only comment is that virtually every society, based on some variation of Theism also has virtually the same list of rules.  Arguably one could attribute that to social evolution itself.

You cannot have a peaceful society and lots of babies without rules very much like these.  So one could attribute it all simply to social evolution.

Or not.  Take every word literally if that floats your boat.

I suggest that it is important to see things more abstractly, and look at the MEANING and implications of the stories/words/metaphors/language games, and kick it up a layer or two of abstraction.   IMO that tends to be the difference between science and religion itself.

 

[Calm]

7 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think the connection being sought by the Rabbi at least) between these two codes is a declaration of mutual solidarity and fidelity in these principles by the two groups -- mutual support in the spirit of ecumenical cooperation founded in the personal friendship of the two men. 

One list describes behaviour and the other describes principles behind those behaviours.  Certainly not an obvious one to one correspondence, but then that isn’t how principles work in our lives.  Instead there could be several, even a multitude of principles behind a particular behaviour choice.  So both are about living a moral, ethical life.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Sigh.

Different language games using different words for the same/similar content.

Maybe sound just a little like the 10 commandments?

They do. They were pulled out of the Torah. The seven laws are those that some Jewish groups hold to be the laws that all Gentiles should follow. Of course it sounds a little like the Torah.

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Wouldn't "courts of justice" include problems between neighbors including "coveting" their possessions and the results thereof?

AND now since we are including the Book of Mormon, God's Plan for his children would include the morality found in the BOM AND the New Testament, RIGHT? (as they say at BYU), SO the whole morality paradigm now also includes what we might call the "Two Great Commandents", 1- Love God and 2- Love thy Neighbor as thyself:

You could just make it about the “Do not Steal” commandment and skip the extra steps.

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

So put the two together and you pretty much have the entire moral code of Christianity.  Yes, some minor variations, but overall, AMAZINGLY SIMILAR. 

If you don't see it you don't see it.

MY only comment is that virtually every society, based on some variation of Theism also has virtually the same list of rules.  Arguably one could attribute that to social evolution itself.

Uhhhh…..yeah, that is exactly what I was saying. Also it is not limited to theistic societies. I am putting down the idea that there is some fundamental link between the Seven Laws of Noah and the Seven teachings. There aren’t. They aren’t similar beyond being generally agreed upon ‘good things’.

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

You cannot have a peaceful society and lots of babies without rules very much like these.  So one could attribute it all simply to social evolution.

Or not.  Take every word literally if that floats your boat.

I suggest that it is important to see things more abstractly, and look at the MEANING and implications of the stories/words/metaphors/language games, and kick it up a layer or two of abstraction.   IMO that tends to be the difference between science and religion itself.

Are you thinking this is the science/religion thread?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

One list describes behaviour and the other describes principles behind those behaviours.  Certainly not an obvious one to one correspondence, but then that isn’t how principles work in our lives.  Instead there could be several, even a multitude of principles behind a particular behaviour choice.  So both are about living a moral, ethical life.

Interestingly to me is that the Noahide set comes across as more "letter" and the Grandfather set as more "spirit" of the law. And the Book of Mormon of course testifies of both, and of the law of Moses, and of laws for governing the church, and of the laws governing communities according to that which is "right" (the voice of the people / 2 Nephi 31: 3), the law of those without the law (Moroni 8: 22), etc.

[CV75]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Probaby true but that is not the way some people are spinning it.

Hence the value of online discussion (except I didn't watch the video  )!!!

In some ways the two texts converge (as good principles) and some ways not (their superficial content). It is the relationship between the two men, which is a micro-microcosm of relationships between people, and taking it an extra step, our relationship with God, that makes them meaningful on the level of common humanity. I think this is where covenant relationships are so important, because when observed, they draw people together in brotherly love and kindness, especially as they are also drawn to God, and especially as this is done in the fulness of the Gospel.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Uhhhh…..yeah, that is exactly what I was saying. Also it is not limited to theistic societies. I am putting down the idea that there is some fundamental link between the Seven Laws of Noah and the Seven teachings. There aren’t. They aren’t similar beyond being generally agreed upon ‘good things’.

Underlining was mine.

Yes, of course.  Thanks for confirming MY POINT!

So essentially you are saying that what constitute "good things" are generally agreed upon by nearly all.

That last sentence is exactly what I was saying. 

Seeing it that way is exactly the gist of my comments.

BUT HOW IS POSSIBLE THAT WE "GENERALLY AGREE UPON WHAT CONSTITUTES A "GOOD THING"??

And yes,that includes atheists as much as "believers".  If you are interested in it look up "Atheistic Pantheism"- many hits- which MIGHT show how some say "The Universe" speaks to them- allegedly without a belief in "God".

How could that be that the "Universe" speaks to people?

Sounds like "The Light of Christ" to me- how does a dumb bird with a tiny brain compared to us, fly thousands of miles over empty ocean to return to it's place of birth?

Whales with the largest brains on earth do the same thing.   How does "The Universe" speak to them?

It is hard for me to even THINK of any possibilities to explain the moral moral similarities of theists and atheists all who claim that the Universe speaks to them to tell them what to do with their lives!

How can we all agree that the "sky is blue", but cannot explain what that means to a blind person?

You just have to "experience it" to even know what the words mean.  It's either the Universe or some Greater Force which can communicate with the beings that "it" needs to, who have modified/evolved/ designed minds enabling the whole communications system work.

A lot of atheists will practice repeating their "affirmations" to the Universe every day, because they want something.   And MANY believe that actually works.  If you are obsessed enough about anything, you can make it manifest itself, they say.

Sounds quite a lot like prayer to me,functionally.

Their is a video you can pull up - but I cannot capture a link-when you put "Oprah universe" in which Oprah is virtually giving a revival meeting for an atheistic version of exactly what we might see as asking the Still Small Voice for answers in their lives.  Try it!

Different Wittgensteinian "language games" for the same phenomenon IMO.

Edit:  Here I think this might work- Oprah speaks about the Holy Ghost/ Light of Christ with no need for mentioning "God" or belief in God.  1 minute long.

https://www.oprah.com/own-digitaloriginals/oprah-pay-attention-to-the-whispers-of-the-universe-video

 

Edited May 26 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

On 5/24/2024 at 11:41 AM, latterdaytemplar said:

His question to the Church is why the Church has not made any formal declaration stating the same about such Anishinaabe peoples as the Ojibwe being descendants of the Lamanites....

"Anishinaabe" pronounced as "Ashkenazi?" 🧐 

Jest kiddin as usual BUT

Certainly not literal, but....the pronounced sounds with different accents?

I am not accepting any of this really at any point but it IS fun! 

[mfbukowski]

16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Are you thinking this is the science/religion thread?

Every thread on this board is underlied by the science/religion language games conflict, and will be, until people just "SEE" the difference, ie "grok" the difference.

For the youngsters:

 

Quote

 

Dictionary

Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

grok

/ɡräk/

verb

INFORMAL•US

verb: grok; 3rd person present: groks; past tense: grokked; past participle: grokked; gerund or present participle: grokking

1. understand (something) intuitively or by empathy.

   "because of all the commercials, children grok things immediately"

   • empathize or communicate sympathetically; establish a rapport.

     "nestling earth couple would like to find water brothers to grok with in peace"

Origin

1960s: a word invented by Robert Heinlein (1907–88), American author.

 

 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Every thread on this board is underlied by the science/religion language games conflict, and will be, until people just "SEE" the difference, ie "grok" the difference.

For the youngsters:

 

 

Grok is a great word, but you need to read the book to really grok it.

Stranger in a Strange Land iirc.  I should read that again it’s been 50 years probably, high school.

[The Nehor]

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

BUT HOW IS POSSIBLE THAT WE "GENERALLY AGREE UPON WHAT CONSTITUTES A "GOOD THING"??

Or just that we are all of the same species and have similar motivational drives.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Or just that we are all of the same species and have similar motivational drives.

Sounds circular to me.  It doesn't give us any new information

 

What defines the word "species"?

 

Quote

 

Dictionary

Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

 

spe·cies

/ˈspēSHēz,ˈspēsēz/

 

noun

 

1. 1.

   BIOLOGY

   a group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding. The species is the principal natural taxonomic unit, ranking below a genus and denoted by a Latin binomial, e.g. Homo sapiens.

 

 

"A group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding."

 

If we can breed together, it's pretty clear that we would have "similar motivational drives"

 

There's no information here, just a definition.   A=A.  

 

 

Edited May 26 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

error.

Edited May 26 by mfbukowski

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Sounds circular to me.  It doesn't give us any new information

I don’t see how what you said isn’t circular in the same way.

[Bernard Gui]

On 5/25/2024 at 9:44 PM, mfbukowski said:

Underlining was mine.

Yes, of course.  Thanks for confirming MY POINT!

So essentially you are saying that what constitute "good things" are generally agreed upon by nearly all.

That last sentence is exactly what I was saying. 

Seeing it that way is exactly the gist of my comments.

BUT HOW IS POSSIBLE THAT WE "GENERALLY AGREE UPON WHAT CONSTITUTES A "GOOD THING"??

And yes,that includes atheists as much as "believers".  If you are interested in it look up "Atheistic Pantheism"- many hits- which MIGHT show how some say "The Universe" speaks to them- allegedly without a belief in "God".

How could that be that the "Universe" speaks to people?

Sounds like "The Light of Christ" to me- how does a dumb bird with a tiny brain compared to us, fly thousands of miles over empty ocean to return to it's place of birth?

Whales with the largest brains on earth do the same thing.   How does "The Universe" speak to them?

It is hard for me to even THINK of any possibilities to explain the moral moral similarities of theists and atheists all who claim that the Universe speaks to them to tell them what to do with their lives!

How can we all agree that the "sky is blue", but cannot explain what that means to a blind person?

You just have to "experience it" to even know what the words mean.  It's either the Universe or some Greater Force which can communicate with the beings that "it" needs to, who have modified/evolved/ designed minds enabling the whole communications system work.

A lot of atheists will practice repeating their "affirmations" to the Universe every day, because they want something.   And MANY believe that actually works.  If you are obsessed enough about anything, you can make it manifest itself, they say.

Sounds quite a lot like prayer to me,functionally.

Their is a video you can pull up - but I cannot capture a link-when you put "Oprah universe" in which Oprah is virtually giving a revival meeting for an atheistic version of exactly what we might see as asking the Still Small Voice for answers in their lives.  Try it!

Different Wittgensteinian "language games" for the same phenomenon IMO.

Edit:  Here I think this might work- Oprah speaks about the Holy Ghost/ Light of Christ with no need for mentioning "God" or belief in God.  1 minute long.

https://www.oprah.com/own-digitaloriginals/oprah-pay-attention-to-the-whispers-of-the-universe-video

 

Are these voices in my head bothering you?

Edited May 27 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Are these voices in my head bothering you?

Oh yeah?

Well I'll SEE that and RAISE YOU THIS:

 

 

[mfbukowski]

14 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t see how what you said isn’t circular in the same way.

I know.

[CV75]

This article is very touching, showing how an invitation from a friend to attend general conference affected this Rabbi and a few Church members in a very positive way:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2024/06/digital-only/attending-general-conference-a-balm-of-gilead-for-my-broken-soul?lang=eng

[Bernard Gui]

44 minutes ago, CV75 said:

This article is very touching, showing how an invitation from a friend to attend general conference affected this Rabbi and a few Church members in a very positive way:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2024/06/digital-only/attending-general-conference-a-balm-of-gilead-for-my-broken-soul?lang=eng

"...And this is a general truism of your grand faith. Wise, loving, nurturing kindness is the service anthem of the Latter-day Saint community; it is the emblematic hallmark and legacy of your faith. If the old adage is true that “the highest form of wisdom is kindness,” then general conference is truly a gathering place for some of the wisest human beings on the planet. You are 'a light unto the nations,' and a light unto my heart. Bless you, Mike, for following the promptings of your heart. Your devotion to helping me restore peace within has the heavenly choir above singing, 'Well done, good and faithful servant' (Matthew 25:23)..."

[Anijen]

On 5/24/2024 at 1:41 PM, latterdaytemplar said:

Chief Midegah Ogichidaa of the Red Bear Pembina Chippewa Indians was recently featured in a YouTube video posted by Book of Mormon Heartland entitled "Question to the Church - Chief Midegah of the Ojibwe", wherein he testifies of the truthfulness of The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ and states that many of the traditions restored in the Church (and found even in the Church's temple ceremonies) have also been preserved in the Ojibwe culture and (sweat) lodges (including, as he claims, the same tokens and signs).

He details how he (not alone, but with all of the elders who run the lodges in his tribe) recently presented their tribal origins and beliefs to the top rabbis of the Jewish Learning Institute, the National Committee for the Furtherance of Jewish Education, the Rabbinical Councils, and the Yeshiva from Jerusalem; and, after hearing the oral traditions of the Ojibwe, officials from each of these Jewish organizations, together with the Ojibwe elders, signed a joint proclamation stating that the Jewish and the Ojibwe are one and the same. This event was also detailed in a Jewish publication called Anash Magazine (Issue 03, Vayeitzei 5784).

His question to the Church is why the Church has not made any formal declaration stating the same about such Anishinaabe peoples as the Ojibwe being descendants of the Lamanites as described in the Book of Mormon when such Jewish organizations are willing to acknowledge the Ojibwe as having come from the same origins as they did.

It also looks like Book of Mormon Heartland is helping to sponsor a "Book of Mormon / Ojibwe Conference" in September.

I found the whole thing interesting and thought that I would share it here.

I work with the Chippewa Tribe, among other tribes, on a daily basis. They do not believe Jews and the Objibwe (Chippewa) are the same, not even close. Neither do the Sioux, Mandan, Hidatsa, or Arikara). There are some who are members of the LDS Church, but most tribal enrolled and non-enrolled members are not. In fact, many have a great disdain for any church/religion that tried to have them assimilated into their Christian culture. The times were members forced their culture on them cut their hair are looked at as a sad history for the tribal members.

[latterdaytemplar]

On 5/27/2024 at 2:30 PM, Anijen said:

I work with the Chippewa Tribe, among other tribes, on a daily basis.

Which one? There are over sixty recognized Chippewa tribes, bands, nations, and council-nations spread across northeastern US and southeastern Canada, not including various sub-tribes/nations/councils/bands (for lack of better terms).

Given the wide dispersion and the varying histories that each will have, it is doubtful that every single tribe or sub-tribe will have the same oral traditions  and histories. And, if what Chief Migeda states is true concerning the governmental qualifications that were necessary for him to become a chief (i.e., that he had to memorize the history and oral traditions of his people by the decade), then that would mean that he has a far better grasp of the histories both of the Red Bear Band of Chippewa and of the Pembina Band of Chippewa Indians (of which the Red Bear Band of Chippewa is a part) than most citizens of his particular sub-band and band or non-citizen peers thereof.

[Anijen]

On 6/2/2024 at 10:48 AM, latterdaytemplar said:

Which one? There are over sixty recognized Chippewa tribes, bands, nations, and council-nations spread across northeastern US and southeastern Canada, not including various sub-tribes/nations/councils/bands (for lack of better terms).

Given the wide dispersion and the varying histories that each will have, it is doubtful that every single tribe or sub-tribe will have the same oral traditions  and histories. And, if what Chief Migeda states is true concerning the governmental qualifications that were necessary for him to become a chief (i.e., that he had to memorize the history and oral traditions of his people by the decade), then that would mean that he has a far better grasp of the histories both of the Red Bear Band of Chippewa and of the Pembina Band of Chippewa Indians (of which the Red Bear Band of Chippewa is a part) than most citizens of his particular sub-band and band or non-citizen peers thereof.

The Turtle Mountain Band of Chippewa in North Dakota. I also work very closely with the MHA Nation in New Town, the Spirit Lake Sioux Tribe, Standing Rock, Sisseton, Pine Ridge, Rose Bud, Winnebago, Walt Hill, Navajo, and Santee. Although now it is mostly the Tribes here in North Dakota.

I use to be a very regular poster here, but then I retired from the Federal government, went to law school. Since, I have been a busy busy man.