Meeting the prerequisites & thereby attaining the promise of Moroni 10:4

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

What I discovered is that I knew the Bible to be the word of God because the Book of Mormon testified of the Bible.  

In fact, my knowledge (and not mere belief) that Jesus is the Christ grows out of the Book of Mormon.  For me, the Bible was merely the informational tract about Jesus -- it is the Book of Mormon ... that turned my belief in Jesus Christ into a flame.

I could have written the above as well; it perfectly describes my experience.

[Five Solas]

6 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Five,

when was the last time you read the Book of Mormon?

If by read you mean straight-through cover-to-cover, as an LDS bishop or missionary might admonish, the answer is 2004.  Obviously I've read many excerpts since then, as I've dialogued with various members including my extended family and of course, folks on this forum.  You should consider me *very* familiar with its contents, certainly in the top 1% of Americans. 

Why do you think the date is important?   

--Erik

[Five Solas]

11 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

I clicked the link, read your reasons.  Ok, I shall help you on your quest of how to better interact with LDS people.   Actually, all of the below applies to any group of people.

Possible point of improvement (going to abbreviate this as 'PPOI'): it helps to acknowledge people and the discussion they've had (this isn't LDS-specific, but any group of people).  In this sentence you've dismissed all the people who spent time talking to you.  This is disrespectful and discourages people from replying to you in the future.

PPOI: same as above.  In fact, above it was specifically acknowledged that people do get different answers.  You're ignoring of that conversation is a disrespectful and a turn off.

You, in all your time being LDS and hanging out on a LDS board, don't recall someone ever talking about asking God, having science heart / real intent, or faith in Christ?  

Fact: these subjects are talking about incredibly frequently.  Your claiming to never have heard it paints yourself as having very selective hearing, and again disregarding the vast majority of what people say.  This is disrespectful and a turn off of conversation.  

LDS perspective: *bangs head on table*.  You repeatedly ignore answers given to you, and then get upset that people quit spending their time answering-just-to-be-ignored by you?  

 

Does this help you see how to better interact with people?  

 

I haven't disrespected anyone here, Jane_Doe.  And it's hard to see how such accusation aids dialogue. 

I stand by my point--LDS don't talk much about the prerequisites stipulated in Moroni 10:4, a few comments on this little thread notwithstanding.  Which is astonishing given a person's testimony of the Book of Mormon HINGES upon them (if you believe the author).  And I offered a hypothesis for the absence of such discussion. 

Rather than uselessly banging your head and imagining fault with me--go to lds.org & enter the words 'Moroni' and 'prerequisite' yourself (or the synonym of your choice).   There's nothing about it.  So how can you insist I have "selective hearing" and disregard "the vast majority?" 

I'm calling you on this, Jane_Doe: Furnish the links & prove your assertions against me.  Demonstrate LDS really do take the Moroni 10:4 prerequisites seriously, that introspective methods to explore and ascertain one's personal sincerity, real intent and faith in Christ are explained and documented, in General Conferences, Ensign articles, and/or wherever else. 

I'll certainly own any mistake & make retraction if you do.  I trust you'll likewise own the mistake if it turns out you're the one who can't deliver. 

Our readers await. 

--Erik

[Meerkat]

18 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

18 hours ago, Stargazer said:

What I discovered is that I knew the Bible to be the word of God because the Book of Mormon testified of the Bible.  

In fact, my knowledge (and not mere belief) that Jesus is the Christ grows out of the Book of Mormon.  For me, the Bible was merely the informational tract about Jesus -- it is the Book of Mormon ... that turned my belief in Jesus Christ into a flame.

I could have written the above as well; it perfectly describes my experience.

In my opinion, that belief could be facilitated by either the Bible or Book of Mormon.  I also believe that faith in Christ can be obtained through prayer, as happened with me, or the right conversation with someone, etc..  The Bible helped confirm the Spirit that testified of Christ.  But for me the Book of Mormon (King Benjamin's address, Alma 5 and Alma 32 specifically,) deepened my conversion, transforming my life.  The pages of the Book of Mormon are drenched in the Holy Ghost and testify of Christ more than any book  I have ever read.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Meerkat

[SteveO]

2 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Rather than uselessly banging your head and imagining fault with me--go to lds.org & enter the words 'Moroni' and 'prerequisite' yourself (or the synonym of your choice).   There's nothing about it. 

Go to lds.org & enter the words “Moroni” and “promise” yourself (or the synonym of your choice).  There’s plenty there about it.

 

[Okrahomer]

4 hours ago, Five Solas said:

I haven't disrespected anyone here, Jane_Doe.  And it's hard to see how such accusation aids dialogue. 

I stand by my point--LDS don't talk much about the prerequisites stipulated in Moroni 10:4, a few comments on this little thread notwithstanding.  Which is astonishing given a person's testimony of the Book of Mormon HINGES upon them (if you believe the author).  And I offered a hypothesis for the absence of such discussion. 

Rather than uselessly banging your head and imagining fault with me--go to lds.org & enter the words 'Moroni' and 'prerequisite' yourself (or the synonym of your choice).   There's nothing about it.  So how can you insist I have "selective hearing" and disregard "the vast majority?" 

I'm calling you on this, Jane_Doe: Furnish the links & prove your assertions against me.  Demonstrate LDS really do take the Moroni 10:4 prerequisites seriously, that introspective methods to explore and ascertain one's personal sincerity, real intent and faith in Christ are explained and documented, in General Conferences, Ensign articles, and/or wherever else. 

I'll certainly own any mistake & make retraction if you do.  I trust you'll likewise own the mistake if it turns out you're the one who can't deliver. 

Our readers await. 

--Erik

My goodness!  You've simply used the wrong search terms, Erik.  In the Church, we do not refer to “Moroni’s prerequisites.”   Rather we talk and teach about “Moroni’s Promise” or “Moroni’s Exhortation” or “The Book of Mormon Promise.”  Every LDS Primary child is taught about Moroni’s Promise—more than once.  And it continues into seminary.  It is a frequent topic of articles in the Ensign; and it is frequently taught during General Conference.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Okrahomer

[Five Solas]

6 hours ago, Okrahomer said:

My goodness!  You've simply used the wrong search terms, Erik.  In the Church, we do not refer to “Moroni’s prerequisites.”   Rather we talk and teach about “Moroni’s Promise” or “Moroni’s Exhortation” or “The Book of Mormon Promise.”  Every LDS Primary child is taught about Moroni’s Promise—more than once.  And it continues into seminary.  It is a frequent topic of articles in the Ensign; and it is frequently taught during General Conference.

You and SteveO miss the point, Okrahomer.  Recall how I opened the OP -

1. Read the Book of Mormon
2. Ask God
3. With a sincere heart
4. With real intent
5. Having faith in Christ

LDS love talking about the first two - that's how they think of the "promise."  You've no cause to doubt me when I tell you I was on the receiving end of that for many years.  But they say remarkably little about the last three.  How do you examine your sincerity, your intentions, Okrahomer?  Do you just intuitively feel it when your motive has been compromised? I used the example of dating a young woman who wouldn't marry outside the temple as compromising the motive of a young man--not a hypothetical example either, at the time.  Where do LDS examine this, in talks, in articles?  And where does that last one come from, faith in Christ?  Do you really just will yourself to have some?  Again, in my experience these topics were glossed over, at best. 

Do you have a link or example where they weren't?

--Erik 

[Calm]

https://www.lds.org/new-era/2013/07/a-sincere-heart-and-real-intent?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2014/10/the-prayer-of-faith?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/04/moronis-promise?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/worldwide-devotionals/2015/01/living-with-purpose-the-importance-of-real-intent?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2011/10/if-you-really-want-to-know-you-will-know?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/manual/primary-3/lesson-29-having-faith-in-the-lord-jesus-christ?lang=eng

Edited March 14, 2018 by Calm

[Jane_Doe]

13 hours ago, Five Solas said:

I haven't disrespected anyone here, Jane_Doe.  And it's hard to see how such accusation aids dialogue. 

I am aiding you on your quest of how to better interact with other people by informing you what you *are* being extremely disrespectful by ignoring what people say to you.

If better interaction with people is what indeed you desire, you can take the help I'm offering.

 If you want to slap a helpful hand away & ignore me, that's your choice.

13 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Rather than uselessly banging your head and imagining fault with me--go to lds.org & enter the words 'Moroni' and 'prerequisite' yourself (or the synonym of your choice).   There's nothing about it.  So how can you insist I have "selective hearing" and disregard "the vast majority?" 

*Sigh*  Here, I'll pull up a search for you, focusing on #5.  I pulled up Google, do a site-specific search for "site:LDS.org Faith in Christ", got 72,800 hits.  site:lds.org faith Christ

Yes, we talk about this a lot.  To say "I've never heard LDS talk about faith" is either outright bearing false witness, or demonstrating extremely selective hearing.

[Calm]

"A God who takes the initiative steps all over human agency.  But I cannot help think there has to be room for a sovereign, initiating God implicit in those prerequisites: That a person can't bootstrap herself to faith, or even to a proper motivation."

I don't think you understand LDS belief.  God reaching out, taking the initiative as he has from the beginning does not remove our agency.  He knocks, we must open ourselves.

"Lord, I believe; help thou my unbelief" is a fundamental part of the process.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2003/10/lord-i-believe-help-thou-mine-unbelief?lang=eng

Edited March 14, 2018 by Calm

[Josh Khinder]

On ‎3‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 9:18 PM, Jane_Doe said:

Oh, this old-hat anti-Mormon straw man argument.

I'm just overly extra joyed when 'Christians' have a problem with me asking God and urge me to do anything but that!

As to young people not being active in the Church: this isn't an LDS-centreric event, but is happening across the religious spectrum.  Are you likewise going to pin Moroni for young people leaving YOUR church in droves?   

FiveSolas, pull out the beam from your own eye.

OK, I'll ask God if The Book of Mormon is not true 

 

 

 

 

[Meerkat]

3 hours ago, Five Solas said:

You and SteveO miss the point, Okrahomer.  Recall how I opened the OP -

1. Read the Book of Mormon
2. Ask God
3. With a sincere heart
4. With real intent
5. Having faith in Christ

LDS love talking about the first two - that's how they think of the "promise."  You've no cause to doubt me when I tell you I was on the receiving end of that for many years.  But they say remarkably little about the last three.  How do you examine your sincerity, your intentions, Okrahomer?  Do you just intuitively feel it when your motive has been compromised? I used the example of dating a young woman who wouldn't marry outside the temple as compromising the motive of a young man--not a hypothetical example either, at the time.  Where do LDS examine this, in talks, in articles?  And where does that last one come from, faith in Christ?  Do you really just will yourself to have some?  Again, in my experience these topics were glossed over, at best. 

Do you have a link or example where they weren't?

--Erik 

Erik, that's a fair question.  I lost sight of that after I signed into the thread and couldnt get back to the original questions.  When the missionaries teach an investigator, they teach about the Gospel of Christ, how there was an apostasy and need for a restoration that was prophesied in 2 Thes. 2:3. The next lesson testifies of Jesus Christ from the Book of Mormon and the Bible.  Investigators are invited to read the Book of Mormon, which page by page is a powerful testimony of Jesus Christ, (See Stargazer's and Hamba Tuhan's testimonies above) and pray about it.  They are taught how to pray in faith, in the name of the Savior and expect an answer. 

Before they can be baptized, they are interviewed.  The first two questions they are asked are if they believe in God the Eternal Father and Jesus Christ.  It's the same for attending the Temple. 

Whether people are sincere with real intent is important, as is having faith in Jesus Christ, as is believing Joseph Smith was a prophet and the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ.  Sincerity falls into the category of individual agency, imo, as does expressing faith in Jesus Christ.  

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is about the life of Jesus Christ and His teachings.  It's also about the times we live in and the need for a prophet today.  In my opinion, many who say it doesn't testify of Christ either haven't actually studied it, are willing to ignore it's teachings, or have other motivations.  

[pogi]

31 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

OK, I'll ask God if The Book of Mormon is not true 

I am practically drowning in the sincerity of your heart.  

[pogi]

5 hours ago, Five Solas said:

And where does that last one come from, faith in Christ?  Do you really just will yourself to have some?

Faith is a gift of the spirit (see 1 Corinthians 12:9; Moroni 10:11).  

"...seek ye earnestly the best gifts, always remembering for what they are given(D&C 46:8)."

We are also taught that faith is kindled by hearing the gospel taught by authorized administrators sent by God (Rom 10:14-17).

So, faith is kindled by "hearing" the word, but the gift is developed further through trial and obedience to the word (Alma 32:40–43; Ether 12:4, 6, 12; D&C 63:9–12), to the bearing of fruit. 

[Avatar4321]

18 hours ago, Five Solas said:

If by read you mean straight-through cover-to-cover, as an LDS bishop or missionary might admonish, the answer is 2004.  Obviously I've read many excerpts since then, as I've dialogued with various members including my extended family and of course, folks on this forum.  You should consider me *very* familiar with its contents, certainly in the top 1% of Americans. 

Why do you think the date is important?   

--Erik

Hard to discuss things seriously id you don’t familiarize yourself with the text frequently.

and you may know it better than most Americans but that doesn’t mean you know it. I read it daily and I’m not sure I know it know it

[Avatar4321]

2 hours ago, Josh Khinder said:

OK, I'll ask God if The Book of Mormon is not true 

 

 

 

 

If you read the Book of Mormon and ask God sincerely I don’t think it matters what words you use exactly

[Five Solas]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

https://www.lds.org/new-era/2013/07/a-sincere-heart-and-real-intent?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2014/10/the-prayer-of-faith?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/04/moronis-promise?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/worldwide-devotionals/2015/01/living-with-purpose-the-importance-of-real-intent?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2011/10/if-you-really-want-to-know-you-will-know?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/manual/primary-3/lesson-29-having-faith-in-the-lord-jesus-christ?lang=eng

You and I disagree from time to time, Calm--but in all honestly, most of the time I find you to be a fair and thoughtful voice on the forum. 

And so it's with initial disappointment that I clink these links and find no substance in any of it (okay, truth told, I gave up after the first 3).  Is it possible you agree with my previous point and you recognize the vacuity of the content will serve to reinforce it?  Hmmm... Perhaps I don't give you enough credit...

;0)

James B. Martino gets off to a promising start with his title.  But does he offer any techniques, any guidance to evaluate our sincerity and/or whether our intent is real?  Far from it.  He merely asserts "wanting" to know a thing is different than curiosity.  He alleges that wanting implies a willingness to respond in some manner, while curiosity does not.  As if a person could see the future and accurately predict his/her response to an uncertain outcome.  Right. 

Regardless of what one thinks of his use of English, none of this serves to answer the question--how can I be certain my sincerity is uncompromised?  How do I know my intent is real?  And if I suspect my motives may be compromised, for whatever reason, what should I do about it?  (I gave one illustrative example, which you no doubt read.)  Martino doesn't tell us.  Perhaps because Martino doesn't know, or maybe Martino doesn't think it's worth the keystrokes.  Hard to say.   

Henry B. Eyring doesn't even get us that far.  He quotes Moroni 10:4 (along with verses 3 & 5) and then he bears his testimony at the reader--"That promise is sure."  Uh, okay, if you say so.  He then rabbit-trails onto "giving a generous fast offering" and a few other things.  The substance of verse 4 certainly didn't hold his attention for long.  No doubt he had more pressing thoughts to pursue. 

Randall L. Ridd is the closest you get, Calm.  Unlike the others, Randall actually acknowledges the question I've asked concerning the meaning and implication of "real intent."  He thinks the point I'm making on this thread has a little merit.  SWEET VALIDATION!!!  TAKE THAT ALL YOU HATERS!!! 

Ah, don't get so excited.  As you'll soon discover, he doesn't actually have a answer.  Instead, he gives us "The Parable of the Oranges."  In Ridd's parable, there are two "young men."  One is motivated by money, the other is a people-pleaser and finds his satisfaction in the approval of others.  They are both idolaters, in the strictest sense.  But Ridd thinks it's obvious the latter is better in God's eyes (obvious, because Ridd feels no need to explain why people-pleasers are superior beings).  And... And that's as far as we get.  Ridd wanders off the topic immediately thereafter, never to return. 

Honestly Calm, I'm conflicted.  I don't know whether to be annoyed at the waste of time digging through this, or amused at the prospect you could be playing some deeper game.  I'd welcome a little guidance on the proper way to feel. 

If anyone does have a serious treatment of what I've been calling the Moroni 10:4 "prerequisites"--please do share.  At least you know it will be read and considered.  And that's not nothing, right?

--Erik

____________________________

However far away
I will always love you
However long I stay
I will always love you
Whatever words I say
I will always love you
I will always love you

--The Cure, 1989

 

[Stargazer]

On 3/14/2018 at 5:09 AM, Meerkat said:

In my opinion, that belief could be facilitated by either the Bible or Book of Mormon.  I also believe that faith in Christ can be obtained through prayer, as happened with me, or the right conversation with someone, etc..  The Bible helped confirm the Spirit that testified of Christ.  But for me the Book of Mormon (King Benjamin's address, Alma 5 and Alma 32 specifically,) deepened my conversion, transforming my life.  The pages of the Book of Mormon are drenched in the Holy Ghost and testify of Christ more than any book  I have ever read.

Oh, yes, of course it could be facilitated by either the Bible or Book of Mormon.  I wouldn't try to deny that for a second.  I was just trying to make clear how my experience proceeded.

[Jeanne]

22 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

If you read the Book of Mormon and ask God sincerely I don’t think it matters what words you use exactly

I smile at this...it is like Priesthood blessings...no matter which way you look at it...it is ll fine and dandy.

[Meerkat]

Erik, your last post was unfair and dismissive.  You say you will read and consider things, but you don't.  I would say you waste everybody's time when you do that.  But probably many of us here continue to respond because we care about you and enjoy the challenge and thought process somewhat.  I've got to admit, I'm not much of a scholar or intellectual.  But I have opinions that I value, along with a lot of people here who respond thoughtfully and seriously to your questions.  Your responses, such as this one, seem inappropriate to me.  

You said this at the end of your last post:

13 hours ago, Five Solas said:

If anyone does have a serious treatment of what I've been calling the Moroni 10:4 "prerequisites"--please do share.  At least you know it will be read and considered.  And that's not nothing, right?

After Calm did research for you that you should have done for yourself, you said: 

13 hours ago, Five Solas said:

And so it's with initial disappointment that I clink these links and find no substance in any of it (okay, truth told, I gave up after the first 3).  Is it possible you agree with my previous point and you recognize the vacuity of the content will serve to reinforce it?

Those links are full of substance.  You just don't want to consider it.  Your disconnect between those two statements strikes me as the definition of insincerity, or worse.  

13 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Honestly Calm, I'm conflicted.  I don't know whether to be annoyed at the waste of time digging through this, or amused at the prospect you could be playing some deeper game.  I'd welcome a little guidance on the proper way to feel. 

You want guidance on the proper way to feel?  You are kidding, right? And you are lecturing us on wasting your time? Pardon my frustration.  YOU asked for references.  Calm gave you a ton that you didn't read.  And you've received a ton of responses that you ignore.

A couple of my responses referred to the fact that the Missionaries teach faith in Christ and the importance of sincerity in prayer, and receiving answers to their prayers before a person can be baptized.  The same for getting a Temple Recommend.  Why would they want to be baptized or attend the Temple if they didn't believe it.  

Yes, investigators can succumb to manipulation from a missionary, or pressure,  and be baptized for the wrong reasons.  Children in member families can also be baptized for the wrong reasons.  It sounds like you may have been.  But each of us has a responsibility to carefully weigh what we are being taught and not accept the challenge if we haven't received an affirmative answer.  The missionary's responsibility is to teach.  Receiving an answer, and determining whether we are sincere is the individual's responsibility.  In other words, it's up to you to determine whether you are sincere or not.  

Had you read President Faust's talk, you would have found keys to what you are looking for.  They have been expressed on this thread, but you are apparently looking for something else beyond the mark.

On 3/14/2018 at 10:51 AM, Calm said:

I don't think you understand LDS belief.  God reaching out, taking the initiative as he has from the beginning does not remove our agency.  He knocks, we must open ourselves.

"Lord, I believe; help thou my unbelief" is a fundamental part of the process.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2003/10/lord-i-believe-help-thou-mine-unbelief?lang=eng

President Faust was accurate, in my experience, when he said "Sustaining faith can be the ultimate comfort in life. All of us must find our own testimonies." I wish you the best of luck Erik.

[Five Solas]

4 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Those links are full of substance.  You just don't want to consider it. 

You, my friend, are making a bald assertion. 

I read Calm's top three links.  And then I took the trouble to give brief examples from each to demonstrate how they missed the mark.  You may object that I did so in a way that injected a little humor--but it's highly unlikely you'll be able to refute any of it.  Because those brief summations I wrote are accurate reflections of the content as they pertain to our topic at hand (the Moroni 10:4 prerequisites).  If you think they are inaccurate and that I overlooked relevant content--the burden is on you to demonstrate my error.  Bald assertion that I'm wrong won't cut it, Meerkat. 

Writing & reading contracts is a significant part of my work.  As you might imagine, my reading comprehension is pretty good.  But I occasionally make a mistake.  And I'll gladly take correction, if you've got one to give. 

But you're going to need to make at least as much effort as I did.  Maybe it's not worth it to you.  But I promise I'll read and consider anything you come up with from those links.  And again, that can't be worth nothing. 

--Erik

[mfbukowski]

On 3/13/2018 at 8:50 PM, Five Solas said:

I haven't disrespected anyone here, Jane_Doe.  And it's hard to see how such accusation aids dialogue. 

I stand by my point--LDS don't talk much about the prerequisites stipulated in Moroni 10:4, a few comments on this little thread notwithstanding.  Which is astonishing given a person's testimony of the Book of Mormon HINGES upon them (if you believe the author).  And I offered a hypothesis for the absence of such discussion. 

Rather than uselessly banging your head and imagining fault with me--go to lds.org & enter the words 'Moroni' and 'prerequisite' yourself (or the synonym of your choice).   There's nothing about it.  So how can you insist I have "selective hearing" and disregard "the vast majority?" 

I'm calling you on this, Jane_Doe: Furnish the links & prove your assertions against me.  Demonstrate LDS really do take the Moroni 10:4 prerequisites seriously, that introspective methods to explore and ascertain one's personal sincerity, real intent and faith in Christ are explained and documented, in General Conferences, Ensign articles, and/or wherever else. 

I'll certainly own any mistake & make retraction if you do.  I trust you'll likewise own the mistake if it turns out you're the one who can't deliver. 

Our readers await. 

--Erik

Oh yeah.

Yawn.

[Meerkat]

7 hours ago, Five Solas said:

You, my friend, are making a bald assertion. 

I read Calm's top three links.  And then I took the trouble to give brief examples from each to demonstrate how they missed the mark.  You may object that I did so in a way that injected a little humor--but it's highly unlikely you'll be able to refute any of it.  Because those brief summations I wrote are accurate reflections of the content as they pertain to our topic at hand (the Moroni 10:4 prerequisites).  If you think they are inaccurate and that I overlooked relevant content--the burden is on you to demonstrate my error.  Bald assertion that I'm wrong won't cut it, Meerkat. 

Writing & reading contracts is a significant part of my work.  As you might imagine, my reading comprehension is pretty good.  But I occasionally make a mistake.  And I'll gladly take correction, if you've got one to give. 

But you're going to need to make at least as much effort as I did.  Maybe it's not worth it to you.  But I promise I'll read and consider anything you come up with from those links.  And again, that can't be worth nothing. 

--Erik

I read all of the references and found thoughts in each of them that would answer your question:

On 3/14/2018 at 11:05 PM, Five Solas said:

How do I know my intent is real? 

I can tell that you struggle with that question.  The answers are there, just waiting for you.  But you need to dig them out.  It's your responsibility.  You would never accept my refutation.  Best of luck, Erik. 

Edited March 16, 2018 by Meerkat

[Stargazer]

13 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Erik, your last post was unfair and dismissive.  You say you will read and consider things, but you don't.  I would say you waste everybody's time when you do that.  But probably many of us here continue to respond because we care about you and enjoy the challenge and thought process somewhat.  I've got to admit, I'm not much of a scholar or intellectual.  But I have opinions that I value, along with a lot of people here who respond thoughtfully and seriously to your questions.  Your responses, such as this one, seem inappropriate to me.  

[/snip] 

Had you read President Faust's talk, you would have found keys to what you are looking for.  They have been expressed on this thread, but you are apparently looking for something else beyond the mark.

President Faust was accurate, in my experience, when he said "Sustaining faith can be the ultimate comfort in life. All of us must find our own testimonies." I wish you the best of luck Erik.

I like Erik.  He may be annoying and frustratingly, and his purposes here may be hard to discern, but for all the aggravation he causes, he is accomplishing a great deal -- just not, perhaps, what he himself intends.

This entire thread, for example, has been a virtual gold mine of testimony!  My testimony of the Book of Mormon is pretty darned solid, but hearing others' describe how they got to that point in their spiritual lives has enhanced that testimony.  Even reading Erik's attempts to explain these testimonies away has been of great value to me.  

Opposition in all things!  Yay for opposition!  It is when we must exercise against resistance that we gain the greatest strength. I guess the key is not to try to lift too much when we're new at it.

Thus Erik provides a forum for growing the strength of our testimonies and our committments!

Thanks, Erik!

[Meerkat]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

I like Erik.

I do also.  

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

This entire thread, for example, has been a virtual gold mine of testimony! 

Agree.  I have enjoyed the premise of the discussion.  Erik is an effective pot stirrer, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

It is when we must exercise against resistance that we gain the greatest strength. I guess the key is not to try to lift too much when we're new at it.

Thus Erik provides a forum for growing the strength of our testimonies and our committments!

Thanks, Erik!

Again, I find myself agreeing with you.  We get a great benefit from Erik.  And maybe much of his abrasiveness is really wit.   Erik, on this thread, presents himself as an honest seeker of truth, then complains about having his time wasted.  If he would consider what he is dismissing, the many testimonies of how God has given us new life, his heart may soften, learn and change.  I think the light mindedness works against the benefit he might otherwise gain.