Can We Mormons Get Our Groove On?

[mormonnewb]

Cultural norms come and go--of course there is room for various forms of worshipful singing. But cultures have to be cultured over time and with much patience and charity so as to keep everyone united in the faith and not distracted by something as relatively superficial as tradition relative to testimony. I think this is one reason all the saints have the Gift of the Holy Ghost--in developing the Zion culture, we have to move ahead by the Spirit in order to do so in unison.

 

I think this goes for finding beauty in other ways we outwardly worship together through art, dress, speech, cuisine, group activities and events, etc.

 

I agree.  And when I'm running the Church (Mormonnewb '16), I won't throw out the hymnals immediately ... OR EVER.  But in the Mormonnewb administration, we will encourage local wards to expand their musical selections to include songs (and instruments) that are culturally-relevant to the local community.  As a "worldwide" church, we might want to develop a more diverse perspective and music might be a good place to start.  Also, I think it would be really cool to experience a little local "flavor" when visiting an out-of-town ward.

[The Nehor]

No, when we join, our grove is removed.

 

But the whole church started to be restored in a grove. Joseph was unclear on whether it was a groovy grove.

[mormonnewb]

That night, in honor of our guests, the Baptist choir, we were allowed to clap in the chapel.  I'll never forget it, it was so surreal to see my stake presidency up on the stand actually swaying and clapping, or like the OP says, getting their groove on.  Maybe that style of worshipping through music would eventually get old, but maybe not. 

 

I applaud your stake presidency for being so hospitable.  I'm not sure that my beloved SP could "go with the flow" like that.  In fact, one of them spoke at the end of sacrament yesterday, mentioning that he had some questions as to whether the sacrament hymn was in line with Church policy (it can't be just any hymn but it must be about the savior or the atonement ... I think).  In the end, he concluded that it was and quite brilliantly, gave a mini-sermon on its significance.  This wonderful brother (one of the biggest reasons that I joined the Church) would probably need a statement from the First Presidency before he was comfortable with hand clapping in the chapel.

[thesometimesaint]

I applaud your stake presidency for being so hospitable.  I'm not sure that my beloved SP could "go with the flow" like that.  In fact, one of them spoke at the end of sacrament yesterday, mentioning that he had some questions as to whether the sacrament hymn was in line with Church policy (it can't be just any hymn but it must be about the savior or the atonement ... I think).  In the end, he concluded that it was and quite brilliantly, gave a mini-sermon on its significance.  This wonderful brother (one of the biggest reasons that I joined the Church) would probably need a statement from the First Presidency before he was comfortable with hand clapping in the chapel.

 

A few Christmas's ago we had the local Baptist church Bell Ringers give a Christmas concert. Very beautiful. We clapped at the end of every song. However it was given in the Cultural Hall and not the Chapel.

[Calm]

That's what is really nice about hand clapping. It allows those of us who can't sing to "make a joyful noise" by clapping in time to the music.

Well, our ward was clapping along to some Argentinian music at the Christmas program the other night.....nope, don't want to hear that mess in SM.  "In time" would only refer to its taking place in time, not any reference to an actual rhythm of any sort....granted they had just finished eating, maybe all their energy was going to the digestion process robbing the brain of blood sugar.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

But the whole church started to be restored in a grove. Joseph was unclear on whether it was a groovy grove.

Very good, I left out an "o"...now I can't fix it. Good job.

[mormonnewb]

 "In time" would only refer to its taking place in time, not any reference to an actual rhythm of any sort....granted they had just finished eating, maybe all their energy was going to the digestion process robbing the brain of blood sugar.

I must confess that I'm rhythm impaired myself. At black church, the person next to me usually gives me a strange look and then shakes his/her head as if to say, "Brutha, you've been in the suburbs way too long!"

[pogi]

I don't like Silent Night FWIW, it sounds like a song you sing when carrying a casket

 

To me it sounds like a lullaby.  I love it.  

Great story behind it too!

[pogi]

I must confess that I'm rhythm impaired myself. At black church, the person next to me usually gives me a strange look and then shakes his/her head as if to say, "Brutha, you've been in the suburbs way too long!"

 

They are probably thinking "No wonder he became a Mormon, the Brutha's got no rhythm!"

[CV75]

I agree.  And when I'm running the Church (Mormonnewb '16), I won't throw out the hymnals immediately ... OR EVER.  But in the Mormonnewb administration, we will encourage local wards to expand their musical selections to include songs (and instruments) that are culturally-relevant to the local community.  As a "worldwide" church, we might want to develop a more diverse perspective and music might be a good place to start.  Also, I think it would be really cool to experience a little local "flavor" when visiting an out-of-town ward.

Great!

 

 

Loooking toward '16, are you suggesting that the #1 priority for the Church might be to address the top Quorums’ un/underdeveloped perspective on cultural diversity, which in turn stifles spiritually relevant experiences for individuals, families and wards, which in turn thwarts the progress of Zion culture? I’m thinking of how the practice of every temple dedication hosting a significant cultural celebration that honors the generations of families that will be served by those ordinances comes from, and how that might be an example of cultural appreciation.

 

But I’m also thinking about how Elder Oaks gave two talks about culture and the Gospel, 9 years apart, reflecting his ministry in Africa and Asia, which allows us to cmpare the value of putting the emphasis on celebrating one’s culture despite the Gospel over keeping the Gospel despite one’s culture.

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2003/10/repentance-and-change?lang=eng

 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/03/the-gospel-culture?lang=eng

 

Regarding music, the Handbook (http://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/music?lang=eng ) does distinguish between music for worship and music for performance; and between cultural, secular and popular music, style, and instrumentation, while recognizing how each might be best accommodated as part of the ward worship and other activities.

 

But where I think you’re talking about the influence of culturally-defined style and instrumentation in the Sacrament Service on what and how we worship, which contributes to receiving grace and a fullness (D&C 93:19, 20), I think the Handbook music guidance is more about promoting conversion than existing cultural tastes. Sometimes putting our personal preferences and mode of expression aside helps us be more receptive to the Spirit, if only as an exercise.

 

And then of course the hymns are written to be sung in various different ways, which to me makes all the difference!

[pogi]

How can the rhythm of a song or timbre of an instrument be irreverent if it is performed in heart-felt praise?  Reverence is defined as "deep respect for someone or something."  From what I see, there is far more reverence (respect) in black church gospel style music than in our numb and tired hymns.  Not that hymns can't be sung reverently, but from my experience they are rarely sung with the respect that engenders the reverence and worship worthy of our Lord. 

 

I am more concerned about the lack of heart felt reverence and respect in our singing than I am about people confusing emotion with spirit.  Heart felt emotion towards the Lord is inviting, not distracting, of the Spirit.  One simply cannot worship without heart felt emotion.  I have a hard time rationalizing certain types of instruments or worship songs out of sacrament meeting.  I think CV75 is right that it is cultural, I just wish that we as a people could more readily accept other cultures in our worship. 

[thesometimesaint]

We're largely a white bread Protestant culture in the Church, as we get more and more a world wide church that will change. For some of us that change is long in coming.

[why me]

How can the rhythm of a song or timbre of an instrument be irreverent if it is performed in heart-felt praise?  Reverence is defined as "deep respect for someone or something."  From what I see, there is far more reverence (respect) in black church gospel style music than in our numb and tired hymns.  Not that hymns can't be sung reverently, but from my experience they are rarely sung with the respect that engenders the reverence and worship worthy of our Lord. 

 

 

All churches have their cultural roots. To make mormonism into a black gospel centered church with its music will not happen. If I remember correctly, the catholic church in the 70s introduced the folk mass with folk song gospel melodies played from a guitar. It flopped big time. It did not suit the catholic church to have guitar music during Mass. The same would hold true for the lds music scene.

 

Cultural roots go deep into the psyche. Hard to dig them out. With the black gospel music one must also have a preacher with flair. If not, there would be an anticlimax during sacrament meeting.

[CV75]

How can the rhythm of a song or timbre of an instrument be irreverent if it is performed in heart-felt praise?  Reverence is defined as "deep respect for someone or something."  From what I see, there is far more reverence (respect) in black church gospel style music than in our numb and tired hymns.  Not that hymns can't be sung reverently, but from my experience they are rarely sung with the respect that engenders the reverence and worship worthy of our Lord. 

 

I am more concerned about the lack of heart felt reverence and respect in our singing than I am about people confusing emotion with spirit.  Heart felt emotion towards the Lord is inviting, not distracting, of the Spirit.  One simply cannot worship without heart felt emotion.  I have a hard time rationalizing certain types of instruments or worship songs out of sacrament meeting.  I think CV75 is right that it is cultural, I just wish that we as a people could more readily accept other cultures in our worship. 

I think that, because one man’s meat is another man’s poison, and there’s no accounting for taste, the standards set out in the Handbook are merely a way to help us not focus on our disparate cultural tastes and instead focus on developing spiritual characteristics. There is a time and place for everything we practice in becoming more spiritual.

 

Like fasting helps us concentrate the spirit over the body, piano/organ music helps us put the focus on singing our spiritual feelings from within over stimulating our preferences for external sound and rhythm. There is a time and place for feasting and fasting, both conducive to fostering the Spirit, and I think the Handbook encourages all types of edifying music.

[CV75]

We're largely a white bread Protestant culture in the Church, as we get more and more a world wide church that will change. For some of us that change is long in coming.

Every culture has its pros and cons, hence the call to appreciate diversity while putting the Gospel first.

[why me]

We're largely a white bread Protestant culture in the Church, as we get more and more a world wide church that will change. For some of us that change is long in coming.

To have hand clapping music one must charismatic preachers who also get some clapping. Or have good singers to stir up the crowd for the preacher. To have someone sing this song in an lds chapel and then have brother johnson give a rip rousing boring talk would be a anticlimax.

 

Edited December 30, 2013 by why me

[pogi]

To have hand clapping music one must charismatic preachers who also get some clapping. Or have good singers to stir up the crowd for the preacher. To have someone sing this song in an lds chapel and then have brother johnson give a rip rousing boring talk would be a anticlimax.

 

That is a funny thought and contrast to imagine.  Hopefully the worshipful music would inspire more worshipful talks.  I also see no problem with allowing the music to be the spiritual climax.

Edited December 30, 2013 by pogi

[pogi]

 

I think that, because one man’s meat is another man’s poison, and there’s no accounting for taste, the standards set out in the Handbook are merely a way to help us not focus on our disparate cultural tastes and instead focus on developing spiritual characteristics. There is a time and place for everything we practice in becoming more spiritual.

 

Like fasting helps us concentrate the spirit over the body, piano/organ music helps us put the focus on singing our spiritual feelings from within over stimulating our preferences for external sound and rhythm. There is a time and place for feasting and fasting, both conducive to fostering the Spirit, and I think the Handbook encourages all types of edifying music.

 

 

I get what you are saying.  I agree that a more tranquil music can foster a more meditative state as opposed to the boisterous rhythms of popular gospel music.  I don't agree with the underlined part necessarily.  I believe that any instrument can foster a meditative fast-like state, even brass and drums can be incredibly meditative and tranquil in their arrangement. 

 

Listen to this for example and try tell me that it does not promote a soft uplifting spiritual reverence, it even has drums!  I don't know why a musical number couldn't be performed using this instrumentation (with fewer performers obviously).  I think that a one brass, violin and cello arrangement in sacrament meeting would be incredibly appropriate and would would not be too distracting from our traditional music. 

 

Edited December 30, 2013 by pogi

[Duncan]

well if we are busting out videos then may I humbly suggest this gooder?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YCD8TOa9nU

 

it's the rock version of book of Mormon Stories from the Singles ward soundtrack

Edited December 30, 2013 by Duncan

[Ahab]

I'm excited about the 2014 later start time for our three-hour block. It will allow me to sneak back to black church before sacrament to get my groove on. Specifically, I'm looking forward to clapping my hands and stomping my feet to some good old gospel music.

Now, don't get me wrong. Over the last few years, I've gotten used to my ward family mumbling through the hymns. I even mumble along myself sometimes.

Seriously, I understand how the hymns can be beautiful, but my question is whether anyone thinks there is room for other beautiful music as well? Would it be possible for us to move beyond just hymns or would that bring about the second great apostasy?

Maybe if we sing the hymns we have to sing as well as we can sing we'll get some more to put in the hymmal.

 

I dare you to sing out with a loud happy voice even if others around you are singing quietly and in a more reserved tone.

 

I've heard the hymn called 'Count Your Blessings' sung as if the goal is to sound sad when you think of all that you have.

[slamarwi]

Prior to the 3 hour block we had singing practice in Sunday School opening exercises. We were taught by a wonderful chorister that really taught us how to sing. She would stop us in the middle of songs and explain how the particular song was meant to be sung.

 

I know we had a greater diversity of songs to choose from as I still have a copy of the 1948 copyrighted hymn book we used.

 

I'm not particularly fond of clapping, tambourines, electric guitars etc. The hymn often becomes more about the instrumental performance than the meaning of the song.

 

A singing refresher for the entire congregation would be very welcome.

[Calm]

We went through a short time where after SM the teachers would be dismissed while Song Practice for hymns was held for about 5 minutes, maybe ten if the chorister thought he could get away with it. I guess they felt they needed every minute extra..but if they cut out the congregational rest hymn or used that time to practice and alternated with Primary songs to involve the kids and teach parents so they can sing with their children...well, let's just say I never figured out why they stopped it.

[strappinglad]

It's probably just me , but I have no idea what half the songs in our current hymnal sound like. Any time the chorister tries one of the less sung hymns , there is a lot of mumbling and la la la ing. When do we have time to learn any new ones?

[CV75]

I believe that any instrument can foster a meditative fast-like state, even brass and drums can be incredibly meditative and tranquil in their arrangement. 

Absolutely. I'm not using the fasting comparison to decribe the actual state brought on by instrumentation, only to describe the relationship between controlling (or rather, transcending) one's personal musical preferences for spiritual benefit, in the same way we control our physical appetite for spiritual benefit.

 

I don't think for the purpose of worship, we should rely on the meditative and tranquilizing properties of musical instruments any more than we would a substance. On the other end of the spectrum, we have similar cautions in the Strength of Youth pamphlets about the power we render to and associate with music--the music in and of itself is only so powerful (studies have been done about how certain wavelengths and rhythms affect physiological and psychological processes, but that is why I used the fasting comparison--we can still choose and transcend, but why invite trouble?). We should not allow ourselves to be vulnerable to any kind of music or allow it to define our spiritual state for us, but rather be aware of the words and sound, actively allow or give meaning to them, and use them to engage in mindful worship.

 

I don't think the leaders chose piano/organ because of their magical properties, or their own cultural preferences, but to create a common opportunity to transcend our dependence on individual and personal music tastes for the sake of singing according to the Spirit in our worship meetings (I mean, in the larger scope of things, most people have to develop a taste for listening to the piano and organ, and so most people don't). Of course this takes a measure of discipline, self-mastery, patience, and persepctive, and lazy singers should take as much heed as more expressive singers.

 

P.S. Maybe the decision to use piano/organ is simply practical, like the standardization of chapel floorplans/blueprints. Being practical doesn't make it any less inspired, or give cause to allow it to undermine one's spirituality.

Edited December 31, 2013 by CV75

[Calm]

Strapping lad, if you would really like to learn the songs, lds.org has an interactive music player which I believe will teach even the individual parts, can't tell now because on iPad. So you could learn songs on your own time at whatever speed you would like to set it.