Can We Mormons Get Our Groove On?

[pogi]

I'm ethnocentric. I want ZIon which is a culture. The best culture. Some say it exists in Utah. They are wrong. Someone in Utah wrote "Saturday's Warriors" sooo......no.

 

Zion is composed of its ethno-diverse stakes. 

Edited January 1, 2014 by pogi

[The Nehor]

We have had many spiritual and musical geniuses come up with something better. That might explain why the other 99% of the Christian world does NOT listen to our hymns.

Do you really think that Christ has a preference for the songs in OUR hymnal?

 

You have a higher opinion of the musical tastes of the rest of the Christian World then I do.

 

I have no idea what kinds of music Jesus aesthetically enjoys. I imagine that an exalted being can appreciate all good music. I do think He he has a preference for ours for our church functions.

 

 

Zion is composed of its ethno-diverse stakes.

 

Zion doesn't exist yet. If it did Jesus would come down and openly dwell in it.

[pogi]

Zion doesn't exist yet. If it did Jesus would come down and openly dwell in it.

 

Will be composed...

 

All I know is that there will be trumpets sounding when Jesus comes.  Try to get a trumpet in sacrament meeting!

[The Nehor]

Will be composed...

 

All I know is that there will be trumpets sounding when Jesus comes.  Try to get a trumpet in sacrament meeting!

 

The Second Coming is not a sacrament meeting.....thankfully.

 

I've met people who seem to think heaven is an eternal sacrament meeting. I have to question the sanity of people actually seeking such a heaven.

[pogi]

The Second Coming is not a sacrament meeting.....thankfully.

 

I've met people who seem to think heaven is an eternal sacrament meeting. I have to question the sanity of people actually seeking such a heaven.

 

That was a joke.

 

If Zion will not be culturally diverse (I believe it will be through it's stakes), which culture will win out?  Does God favor protestant culture for some reason?

[The Nehor]

That was a joke.

 

If Zion will not be culturally diverse (I believe it will be through it's stakes), which culture will win out?  Does God favor protestant culture for some reason?

 

I expect a new culture will form.

[EllenMaksoud]

I'm excited about the 2014 later start time for our three-hour block. It will allow me to sneak back to black church before sacrament to get my groove on. Specifically, I'm looking forward to clapping my hands and stomping my feet to some good old gospel music.

Now, don't get me wrong. Over the last few years, I've gotten used to my ward family mumbling through the hymns. I even mumble along myself sometimes.

Seriously, I understand how the hymns can be beautiful, but my question is whether anyone thinks there is room for other beautiful music as well? Would it be possible for us to move beyond just hymns or would that bring about the second great apostasy?

I actually came from Evangelical roots. In my denomination, at times the worship service sounded like a bad rock concert, and the preaching centered in emotionalism. And you long for this? What ???

[mormonnewb]

I actually came from Evangelical roots. In my denomination, at times the worship service sounded like a bad rock concert, and the preaching centered in emotionalism. And you long for this? What ???

I long for people to be able to worship HF in ways that feel authentic to them. My authentic roots are somewhat similar to yours being raised in the black church. We had our share of emotionalism but that emotionalism produced Christians who stood before angry mobs, water hoses and attack dogs while singing and clapping their hands in praise of Jesus. In the process, that emotionalism produced the single greatest display of Christian civic action in the history of the Republic. (And not to be mean, but at the same time, my beloved saints "reverently" chose to sit that one out)

Do I long for a church where people will hold on tightly to their spiritual roots and lay down their lives, if need be for their fellow man? Yes, everyday of the week and twice on Sunday!

[CV75]

"Less worshipful sound"?  To whom is the question.

Yes, and I think that is the genius of the guidance (having the local leaders answer that question). The local leaders are set apart to have an ear for the Spirit and the congregation's needs. If anyone thinks they are wrong or mistaken, the question is taken care of locally, and having the Gift of the Holy Ghost, the members and the leaders can have a constructive council about it. (Cue culturally-sensitive heavenly music!)

[pogi]

I expect a new culture will form.

 

Then I think your ethnocentricity is premature. 

[EllenMaksoud]

I long for people to be able to worship HF in ways that feel authentic to them. My authentic roots are somewhat similar to yours being raised in the black church. We had our share of emotionalism but that emotionalism produced Christians who stood before angry mobs, water hoses and attack dogs while singing and clapping their hands in praise of Jesus. In the process, that emotionalism produced the single greatest display of Christian civic action in the history of the Republic. (And not to be mean, but at the same time, my beloved saints "reverently" chose to sit that one out)

Do I long for a church where people will hold on tightly to their spiritual roots and lay down their lives, if need be for their fellow man? Yes, everyday of the week and twice on Sunday!

I have been in a black church or two. Of course they wondered why "whitey" was there, but were very warm.  As a Muslim for 7 years, I came away with a deep respect for Africans which I still have today.  I am just a little quieter than lots of people, having become accustomed to being on my hands and knees with my head touching the floor, asking forgiveness and offering praise. If I was shouting, it would be muffled.

[CV75]

 

Perfect.

 

 

Do I smell ethnocentrism?  As much as you want the church to have one single cultural identity, I don't think that is what the brethren have in mind.  How could you possibly give more value to one culture over another?  That is a subjective judgment. 

 

 

Where does it say this, I could not find it in cal's post from the handbook?  Is there another section that she missed?  I am really glad she posted that because it seems to favor local decisions more than top down governance in matters of music selection.  Good to know. 

 

You obviously do smell ethnocentrism, but that seems to be an hallucination. Smell is in the nose of the smeller! Do you smell your own? As for me, if you only knew… LOL

 

I think Zion is a worthy single cultural identity we can all aspire to, recognizing and casting off those cultural artifacts that stand in the way (have you gotten around enough to tell what they are?). But the most serious things that stand in the way have far more to do with egocentrism than ethnocentrism, and these are borne out in how people deal with their relationships and responsibilities as members and leaders of the Church.

 

Here’s the link I used: http://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/music?lang=eng (see 14.4.2). But the whole of Chapter 14 is under the leaders’ direction (see 14.2.1 and elsewhere), and Handbook 1 gets into the leaders’ discretion and flexibility even more. And yes, it is good to know this before you go spouting off about their being abused by someone else’s ethnocentrism over music in Sunday meetings.

[Calm]

 

 

It's impossible to keep original interpretations of anything.  To a large degree we can't even know what they were, because our perceptions of the world have changed so much.

It sounds silly to me when I say it whether it is music or books transferred to film or whatever, since we can never really know what that which was created meant in total to the creator and often are clueless about pretty much everything involved, why should it bother me that someone adapts it to a new purpose...I think repurposing parts of old buildings and clothing is great, why not intellectual property as well.

 

I don't know why it bothers me so much when people take an idea (of whatever type) and put a new twist on it, but in such a way that it has to be tied back to the original, but seems to me to contradict the very nature of the original creation (or at least my interpretation of it).

[Calm]

 

Perfect.

 

 

Do I smell ethnocentrism?  As much as you want the church to have one single cultural identity, I don't think that is what the brethren have in mind.  How could you possibly give more value to one culture over another?  That is a subjective judgment. 

 

 

Where does it say this, I could not find it in cal's post from the handbook?  Is there another section that she missed?  I am really glad she posted that because it seems to favor local decisions more than top down governance in matters of music selection.  Good to know. 

 

I did edit that part out because it was a repeat and I was emphasizing the statements that music was instruction and was to teach gospel principles.  I believe it was part of the second quote.

[Calm]

 (And not to be mean, but at the same time, my beloved saints "reverently" chose to sit that one out)

Not all...

 

[mfbukowski]

It sounds silly to me when I say it whether it is music or books transferred to film or whatever, since we can never really know what that which was created meant in total to the creator and often are clueless about pretty much everything involved, why should it bother me that someone adapts it to a new purpose...I think repurposing parts of old buildings and clothing is great, why not intellectual property as well.

 

I don't know why it bothers me so much when people take an idea (of whatever type) and put a new twist on it, but in such a way that it has to be tied back to the original, but seems to me to contradict the very nature of the original creation (or at least my interpretation of it).

Read my siggy written by a very wise friend of mine. 

 

I had to cut it down to follow a certain number of characters imposed by the board but this is the full quote:

"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act, defining that language as a form of art makes sense to me especially as I don't see it as a random production, but one aimed at creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future." - Calmoriah

 

 

Interpretation is itself a creative act.

Edited January 2, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Not all...

 

Who is that?

[Calm]

Second from the left, Romney....just not the one most people think of today.

[mfbukowski]

Second from the left, Romney....just not the one most people think of today.

Yes I thought that was probably him.

[Calm]

Yes I thought that was probably him.

Sad to say, I can't think of any other famous LDS who marched...I know my family didn't, my grandparents weren't exactly examples of tolerance and equality, I am afraid...but they were a great lesson to us kids on how even little prejudices have great effect on behaviour.  And probably to their children as well as I have never heard my parents say one thing I would count as racist or even slightly prejudiced, so perhaps they tried to teach better than they were taught and that, imo, would be a great gift and should be honoured.

Edited January 2, 2014 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

Read my siggy written by a very wise friend of mine.

I had to cut it down to follow a certain number of characters imposed by the board but this is the full quote:

Interpretation is itself a creative act.

Very cool...

[Stone holm]

Second from the left, Romney....just not the one most people think of today.

George Romney begged Pres McKay to lift the ban as it was hurting him politically. My nonMormon parents thought the world go George Romney. George Romney was to his son, Mitt , as George HW Bush was to his son George W Bush. Something got lost in translation between the generations.

[Yirgacheffe]

That might actually be a solution.

 

We all have cultural preferences, and I suppose if the church catches on in, say India, they will want sitars and tablas.

Would there be something wrong with them using sitars and tablas?

[volgadon]

I long for people to be able to worship HF in ways that feel authentic to them. My authentic roots are somewhat similar to yours being raised in the black church. We had our share of emotionalism but that emotionalism produced Christians who stood before angry mobs, water hoses and attack dogs while singing and clapping their hands in praise of Jesus. In the process, that emotionalism produced the single greatest display of Christian civic action in the history of the Republic. (And not to be mean, but at the same time, my beloved saints "reverently" chose to sit that one out)

Do I long for a church where people will hold on tightly to their spiritual roots and lay down their lives, if need be for their fellow man? Yes, everyday of the week and twice on Sunday!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDm2v2481K8

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xLD4bVZZlc

[CV75]

I think Alma 17 is an allegory for the subject of determining proper music in Church:

 

2 … Alma did rejoice exceedingly to see his brethren; and what added more to his joy…they had waxed [cut a record] strong in spirit [“jasm” should be considered the leading candidate for the source of “jazz,” it being antiquated slang for “spirit”, “energy”, “vigor”, etc.]

 

7 Nevertheless they departed out of the land of Zarahemla, and took their swords, and their spears, and their bows, and their arrows [fiddles, and  they surely must have had axes also (any musical instrument)]

 

9 … that they might be an instrument …to the knowledge of the baseness of the traditions of their fathers, which were not correct.

 

20 …it was left to the pleasure of the king to slay [supermurgitroidally entertain] them

 

24 And it came to pass that king Lamoni was much pleased with Ammon, and caused that his bands should be loosed; and he would that Ammon should take one of his daughters to wife. [no groupies here]

 

36 But Ammon …with mighty power he did sling [finger zinger—played rapidly]

 

36 … they came forth with clubs [sticks, which means clarinets, or other reed instruments] to slay him.

 

37 … he did withstand their blows [instrument playing] by smiting their arms [chopping, or playing an instrument with skill]