Can We Mormons Get Our Groove On?

[mfbukowski]

George Romney begged Pres McKay to lift the ban as it was hurting him politically.

Of course, since you can read his thoughts, it could not possibly have been for the right motives.

I guess he forgot to wear his tinfoil hat that day.

[mfbukowski]

Would there be something wrong with them using sitars and tablas?

Well I really don't know why someone has not posted this before- http://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/music?lang=eng#14.4.2

 

 14.4.2

Guidelines for Choosing Appropriate Music for Church Worship Services

All Church music should be consistent with the following guidelines.

The hymns are the basic music for worship services and are standard for all congregational singing. In addition, other appropriate selections may be used for prelude and postlude music, choir music, and special musical presentations. If musical selections other than the hymns are used, they should be in keeping with the spirit of the hymns. Texts should be doctrinally correct. (See “Hymns for Congregations,” Hymns, 380–81.)

Secular music should not replace sacred music in Sunday meetings. Some religiously oriented music presented in a popular style is not appropriate for sacrament meetings. Also, much sacred music that is suitable for concerts and recitals is not appropriate for a Latter-day Saint worship service.

Music in Church meetings should not draw attention to itself or be for demonstration. This music is for worship, not performance.

Organs and pianos, or their electronic equivalents, are the standard instruments used in Church meetings. If other instruments are used, their use should be in keeping with the spirit of the meeting. Instruments with a prominent or less worshipful sound, such as most brass and percussion, are not appropriate for sacrament meeting.

Live accompaniment is normally used in sacrament and other ward meetings. If a piano, organ, or accompanist is not available, appropriate recordings may be used (see 14.3).

Music in Church meetings should usually be sung in the language of the congregation.

 14.4.3

Standard Musical Elements in Church Worship Services Prelude and Postlude Music

Quiet prelude and postlude music creates an atmosphere of worship that invites the Spirit into Church meetings. The organist or pianist usually plays hymns or other appropriate music for five to ten minutes before and after a meeting. Playing hymns can help members review gospel teachings in their minds.

Congregational Singing

Most Church meetings are enhanced by the singing of hymns. Music provides a primary means by which members participate in Church worship services. Congregational singing has a unique and often underused power for unifying members as they worship together.

As appropriate, a priesthood leader may ask a congregation to stand for an intermediate hymn or a national anthem (see “Hymns for Congregations,” Hymns, 380–81).

Special Musical Selections

Musical selections may be presented by choirs, vocal and instrumental soloists, and small groups. Hymns and other appropriate selections may be used (see 14.4.2).

 14.4.4

Sacrament Meetings

The bishopric approves music for sacrament meetings. Music and musical texts are to be sacred, dignified, and otherwise suitable for sacrament meeting. Music in sacrament meeting is for worship, not for a performance that draws attention to itself.

Opening and closing hymns are usually sung by the congregation (see “Selecting the Right Hymn,” Hymns, 380). In addition to using hymns that are already known and loved, members are encouraged to become acquainted with new or less familiar hymns. Music leaders should try to achieve a good balance between familiar favorites and hymns that are not as well known (see “Hymns for Congregations,” Hymns, 380–81).

The sacrament hymn is always sung by the congregation. It should refer to the sacrament itself or to the sacrifice of the Savior. Vocal solos or instrumental music may not replace this hymn. No music should be played during the sacrament prayer, while the sacrament is being passed, or as a postlude after the sacrament is passed.

Special musical selections or a congregational hymn may be scheduled after the sacrament or between speakers (see “Special Musical Selections” in 14.4.3).

If a musical program is presented, it should be simple, reverent, and short enough to allow a spoken message. Sacrament meetings should not be turned over to outside musical groups. Recitals, concerts, and pageantry are not appropriate in sacrament meeting.

We can talk ourselves blue in the face but this is what the first presidency thinks should be the case. As far as changing that- well we know how that goes. Give it 50 years or so.

Edited January 2, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

 

I think Alma 17 is an allegory for the subject of determining proper music in Church:

 

2 … Alma did rejoice exceedingly to see his brethren; and what added more to his joy…they had waxed [cut a record] strong in spirit [“jasm” should be considered the leading candidate for the source of “jazz,” it being antiquated slang for “spirit”, “energy”, “vigor”, etc.]

 

7 Nevertheless they departed out of the land of Zarahemla, and took their swords, and their spears, and their bows, and their arrows [fiddles, and  they surely must have had axes also (any musical instrument)]

 

9 … that they might be an instrument …to the knowledge of the baseness of the traditions of their fathers, which were not correct.

 

20 …it was left to the pleasure of the king to slay [supermurgitroidally entertain] them

 

24 And it came to pass that king Lamoni was much pleased with Ammon, and caused that his bands should be loosed; and he would that Ammon should take one of his daughters to wife. [no groupies here]

 

36 But Ammon …with mighty power he did sling [finger zinger—played rapidly]

 

36 … they came forth with clubs [sticks, which means clarinets, or other reed instruments] to slay him.

 

37 … he did withstand their blows [instrument playing] by smiting their arms [chopping, or playing an instrument with skill]

 

You sir are one funny cat, and as you can see I am a hipster, groovy in every way.

[mfbukowski]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDm2v2481K8

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xLD4bVZZlc

You know your stuff!  Great links- thanks!

 

Pete tries, but Mahalia- gosh that is just plain incredible!

[CV75]

You sir are one funny cat, and as you can see I am a hipster, groovy in every way.

You’re jake with me -- hand me that skin, Daddy-o!

[mfbukowski]

You’re jake with me -- hand me that skin, Daddy-o!

 

[EllenMaksoud]

Read my siggy written by a very wise friend of mine. 

 

I had to cut it down to follow a certain number of characters imposed by the board but this is the full quote:

 

Interpretation is itself a creative act.

Nothing speaks to me like Music, whether it be Katherine Jenkins, Turbo Tabla, Bach, Jenny Phillips, or Spem in Alium. Actually, large choirs are not my favorite save for the MTC.  It was Jenny Philips rendition that calmed me when stepping from Islam to what others told me was the Mormon cult. That transition was frightening in an awful way. I was going to trust the people of Jesus again? I kept thinking I was insane.

 

Still, the Mormon songs we sing in church on Sunday bring visions to me of brave settlers setting out across the waste land to a new life. That so many of them would perish on the journey speaks to my heart in a way that I have no ability to resist. I didn't want to be Mormon. I wanted to be Muslim but the story of love and sacrifice in their songs and in their story was completely irresistible.

 

So many Mormon songs come from people who brought the dream to life and gave it substance, and for that I am thankful.

[Yirgacheffe]

Well I really don't know why someone has not posted this before- http://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/music?lang=eng#14.4.2

 

We can talk ourselves blue in the face but this is what the first presidency thinks should be the case. As far as changing that- well we know how that goes. Give it 50 years or so.

It was posted before, but I'm still not sure if people in India could use sitars and tablas?  In Japan do members use traditional Japanese instruments as an accompaniment to hymns?  It seems, to me anyway, that there are two different scenarios here, one bringing different music to Kansas and one bringing Kansas music to say India.  Doesn't either one put a greater emphasis on the music?

[mfbukowski]

Nothing speaks to me like Music, whether it be Katherine Jenkins, Turbo Tabla, Bach, Jenny Phillips, or Spem in Alium. Actually, large choirs are not my favorite save for the MTC.  It was Jenny Philips rendition that calmed me when stepping from Islam to what others told me was the Mormon cult. That transition was frightening in an awful way. I was going to trust the people of Jesus again? I kept thinking I was insane.

 

Still, the Mormon songs we sing in church on Sunday bring visions to me of brave settlers setting out across the waste land to a new life. That so many of them would perish on the journey speaks to my heart in a way that I have no ability to resist. I didn't want to be Mormon. I wanted to be Muslim but the story of love and sacrifice in their songs and in their story was completely irresistible.

 

So many Mormon songs come from people who brought the dream to life and gave it substance, and for that I am thankful.

Wonderful post- thanks so much!  That's a great perspective.

 

I came into the church kicking and screaming also- that Utah farmers would have the truth?  Impossible!  But the spirit would not leave me alone, and still won't.

[mfbukowski]

It was posted before, but I'm still not sure if people in India could use sitars and tablas?  In Japan do members use traditional Japanese instruments as an accompaniment to hymns?  It seems, to me anyway, that there are two different scenarios here, one bringing different music to Kansas and one bringing Kansas music to say India.  Doesn't either one put a greater emphasis on the music?

Well the strength of the church- even though it is so centralized- is that each stake president really runs a "mini-church" and makes the decisions locally subject to his "interpretation" of the manual.

 

So gospel music in Utah?  Probably not- but if the stake president interprets the guidelines so that it is appropriate, then it is appropriate.  So indeed I would think a stake president in India might see it differently.

[EllenMaksoud]

Wonderful post- thanks so much!  That's a great perspective.

 

I came into the church kicking and screaming also- that Utah farmers would have the truth?  Impossible!  But the spirit would not leave me alone, and still won't.

We still joke about my being kidnapped by the Mormons.   The love they showed came at an absolutely black time in my life. That I would trust again seemed completely starkers bonkers. I giggle when I think about the first time I was "shoved" through the door at Kirtland.  It was so confusing !  "I don't know why I am here, but I have questions!"  Well, off to work I go.

[wenglund]

I think it is reasonable to suggest that depending upon the music, it can either enhance or detract from the Spirit.

 

If so, then, as I understand things, while the enhancement or detraction is somewhat in the ear of the listener and a function of culture, music tends to enhance the Spirit when the music focuses our minds on the things of the Spirit, whereas it detracts from the Spirit when the music focuses our minds on the music, itself, or where it distracts our minds away from the things of the Spirit.

 

In my experience, "getting the groove on" has a near unavoidable tendency to draw attention to itself. Because of the loudness and power of the music, it is hard not to get wrapped up in or swept away by it.

 

Now, I am not suggesting that there is something wrong or necessarily bad in grooving, it is just that for everything there is a time and a season and a place, and I have my doubts that Sacrament Meeting is the time and LDS chapels are the place.

 

Disco balls and lights aren't necessarily bad either, and I quite liked them back in the day when I was "getting my groove on" weekend nights at the Star Palace on 9th East in Provo.

 

 

 

However, I am not sure they would would be all that conducive at General Conference when Elder Holland is speaking about the Savior.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mfbukowski]

I think it is reasonable to suggest that depending upon the music, it can either enhance or detract from the Spirit.

 

If so, then, as I understand things, while the enhancement or detraction is somewhat in the ear of the listener and a function of culture, music tends to enhance the Spirit when the music focuses our minds on the things of the Spirit, whereas it detracts from the Spirit when the music focuses our minds on the music, itself, or where it distracts our minds away from the things of the Spirit.

 

In my experience, "getting the groove on" has a near unavoidable tendency to draw attention to itself. Because of the loudness and power of the music, it is hard not to get wrapped up in or swept away by it.

 

Now, I am not suggesting that there is something wrong or necessarily bad in grooving, it is just that for everything there is a time and a season and a place, and I have my doubts that Sacrament Meeting is the time and LDS chapels are the place.

 

Disco balls and lights aren't necessarily bad either, and I quite liked them back in the day when I was "getting my groove on" weekend nights at the Star Palace on 9th East in Provo.

 

 

 

However, I am not sure they would would be all that conducive at General Conference when Elder Holland is speaking about the Savior.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Uh, I think i kind of remember some nights at the Fillmore in San Francisco, but I'm not totally sure...... 

 

But this much I can tell you, I was INTO that music.

[volgadon]

You know your stuff!  Great links- thanks!

 

Pete tries, but Mahalia- gosh that is just plain incredible!

 

Well, very few could rivaal Mahalia.

[Scott Lloyd]

Not all of our hymns meet the criteria of good text/good music, IMO. For example, #163 Lord Dismiss Us with Thy Blessing set to a

version of Frere Jacques, and the painfully embarrassing music of In Our Lovely Deseret, #307.

For the record (and I'm sure you understand this already) neither of those melodies is indigenously LDS.

 

As a child, I learned "Go Tell Aunt Rody" about the same time I learned "Lord Dismiss Us with Thy Blessings." Both are set to the same melody.

 

And those old enough to remember the early '70s will recall a popular song by Ray Stevens called "Everything Is Beautiful." It included a chorus of children singing the Protestant song "Jesus Loves the Little Children." It was the first time I'd heard the melody of "In Our Lovely Deseret" with different words.

 

Edited to add:

 

"Do What Is Right" has the same melody as "The Old Oaken Bucket."

Edited January 3, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[mormonnewb]

PostScript: I was just speaking to a friend whose wife is undergoing cancer treatments. My friend happened to mention that he takes great strength from a song he listens to while driving back and forth to visit his wife. He then started reciting some of the words:

"We’ll find the place which God for us prepared, Far away in the West ..."

That's right. A gentile is listening to Come, Come, Ye Saints for strength and peace. Perhaps, our hymns are not that bad, after all.

[Calm]

The West is often used as referring to the place of abode in the Afterlife and often it is given as a reward to heros so it makes sense.

Tolkien uses the imagery in a literal sense as do many mythologies.

I am not thrilled with the music, but I find the lyrics very, very moving.

Edited January 5, 2014 by calmoriah

[mfbukowski]

The West is often used as referring to the place of abode in the Afterlife and often it is given as a reward to heros so it makes sense.

Tolkien uses the imagery in a literal sense as do many mythologies.

I am not thrilled with the music, but I find the lyrics very, very moving.

I think that started with the Egyptians, because of the sunset in the west, across the Nile.  So the west became the place where the sun "died" daily and was re-born in the east. and the kingdom of the dead was across the river in the west.

 

So now we have Santa Claus showing up celebrating the gift of another Sun/Son rise at the winter solstice, just when it seemed that it would never come back again ever.

 

Who wudda thunk we have the Egyptians to thank for Santa Claus?  

[Stone holm]

For the record (and I'm sure you understand this already) neither of those melodies is indigenously LDS.

 

As a child, I learned "Go Tell Aunt Rody" about the same time I learned "Lord Dismiss Us with Thy Blessings." Both are set to the same melody.

 

And those old enough to remember the early '70s will recall a popular song by Ray Stevens called "Everything Is Beautiful." It included a chorus of children singing the Protestant song "Jesus Loves the Little Children." It was the first time I'd heard the melody of "In Our Lovely Deseret" with different words.

 

Edited to add:

 

"Do What Is Right" has the same melody as "The Old Oaken Bucket."

Not that unusual since the Battle Hymn of the Republic uses the tune if John Browns Body.

[Yirgacheffe]

Not that unusual since the Battle Hymn of the Republic uses the tune if John Browns Body.

I sang John Browns' body in 8th grade for extra credit.

[Calm]

Blast, now I can't get it out of my head, curse you Yirgacheffe and Stone holm.

[Bernard Gui]

I don't know. Everyone but him thought it was a fantastic meeting.

But he was the only one who seemed to know that song wasn't supposed to be sung so that seems to have impacted how the speakers were received, both by him and by everyone else.

I don't believe the spirit would have denied the entire congregation the opportunity to learn truth because of the actions of one person.

Also, if hymns are truly a prayer to God, I don't know how we can say that they have little to do with the Spirit.

Problem is, the meeting is to be directed by the bishop, not the singer or the congregation. If not, there would be chaos, and the spirit does not abide in chaos. Emotional feelings brought on by music are not the same thing as the Holy Spirit.

[Bernard Gui]

P.S. Ever look at all the options that are avaliable for use during Sunday meetings on the organ knobs, or even the keyboard?!?!?!

Every Sunday. I am the ward organist. Most of the choices are ugly and should not be used.

[Bernard Gui]

But the Spirit might attend those who were not part of the defiance surely? Why would those who did no wrong be deprived of a spiritual experience by that actions of another?

If the Sacrament is valid for those who take it even if the young priest blessing it went out and participate in a drunk orgy the night before, why wouldn't the same exist for other aspects of worship?

If the bishop knew what he did and allowed him to continue, the bishop would be seriously in the wrong.

My point is emotions are not the Spirit. A speaker could give a talk in defiance of the bishop's instructions (sneak it in), but no matter how good everyone else felt about it, the feelings would not be the Soirit. If a speaker teaches false doctrine, it is the bishop's duty and right to correct it.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[changed]

I am the primary pianist - the primary book has the chords written in, and as someone who plays Jazz, if you write in the chords for something, that means I get to use the chords .  Our primary programs (at least) are rocken