Can We Mormons Get Our Groove On?

[mfbukowski]

Plenty of Scots-Irish in Poland since the 1600s.

Really?  I had no idea!  Is there a link for that?

 

Clearly those were seriously smart people!! 

[volgadon]

Really?  I had no idea!  Is there a link for that?

 

Clearly those were seriously smart people!! 

 

Very decent summary.

 

"In the period between the sixteenth and eighteenth centuries a considerable number of Scots migrated to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Some sojourned there for some time, while others stayed permanently and exercised commercial business and crafts. The migration stopped in the eighteenth century, and the Scots who remained in Poland seem to have lost their ethnic identity. This book offers an examination and assessment of this migration: numbers of migrants; patterns of settlement; laws regulating Scottish presence in Poland-Lithuania; their commercial, academic, religious and military activities; their social advancement into the Polish nobility; their assimilation and then the eventual disappearance as a distinct ethnic group in Poland-Lithuania."

http://www.brill.com/scots-polish-lithuanian-commonwealth-16th-18th-centuries

[volgadon]

Here is one of the more famous scions of that emigration phenomenon. The surname was originally Learmont. http://www.amazon.com/Hero-Our-Time-M-Lermontov/dp/1494872609/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1389029789&sr=1-1

[volgadon]

Amazing!

 

It's not sygyt, it's sacred. 

 

Brilliant pun. =)

 

Check out the Hungarian long-flute. One has to practically hum into it.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

The hymn has much to do with mormon culture and history and needs to be understood in its time frame. It is a beautiful hymn written at a time of deep hurt among the saints. And they expressed that hurt beautifully. The lds have plenty of songs to the savior. Joseph Smith saw his mission to the end. He sacrificed his life for what he believed in. As did his brother. And he was much loved. Thus, the song was a ways and means to relieve the hurt among the saints. And to show their friend respect.

 

Also the words are relevant today as traitors and tyrannts fight him in vain. And as the song says miilions shall know brother joseph again. Which is actually true.

I agree heartily with this, and would add that the hymn expresses my emotions today as well even though I live nearly two centuries later.

 

The fact that anti-Mormons deride and condemn us for singing this hymn only makes me want to sing it more frequently and fervently. I wear their derision as a badge of honor.

[Scott Lloyd]

Well interestingly it makes it doctrinal that Joseph is now exalted, ascended to heaven, and still planning for his brethren.  "Mingling with gods, he can plan for his brethren" was a phrase that put me off.

 

It doesn't say he is exalted. It says he mingles with Gods. It is a fair assumption that he plays a key role in directing the work that is going on in the Spirit World at the moment in bringing the message of salvation to those who have not yet received it and that, as such, he confers intimately with God the Father and Jesus Christ.

 

We are so busy telling people we don't worship Joseph, and then we sing that?

 

"Hail to the prophet, ascended to heaven" - (I didn't know he had an ascension- I thought only Jesus did that- silly me).  I saw his grave- so how did he ascend to heaven?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascension

 

 

We need not be bound to any one specific definition of ascend or heaven, especially a sectarian definition. To me, these terms in a poetic sense could easily apply to those who die in the Lord and to the state of existence we call paradise.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Those those interested here is the song complete with lyrics. I am sure way back when the early saints must have sung this with tears and pride.

 

A very stirring arrangement -- and the title track from a fairly recent album released by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, evidence that this beloved hymn is not going away from our consciousness, culture or liturgy any time soon.

[daz2]

I have not read all of the thread. Scott, I don't think there is anything wrong with your choir singing the version of Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory, if the bishopric approves. I have been in wards where the bishopric only allows hymns from the green book to be sung in Sacrament meetings, even as special choir numbers. I have been in wards where professional opera singers who belong to the ward or stake have sung religious numbers not in the hymnal, and in operatic form. Most wards seem to allow hymns and Mormon quasi-pop music. I have not been in a ward where guitars have been allowed (even though the handbook does not forbid them--when I pointed that out to a bishop, he simply said, "As long as I am bishop there will be not guitar playing in sacrament meeting. That is his call.) I see nothing wrong with Amazing Grace. At one point it was in the hymnal. Special musical numbers do not have to come from our correlated hymnal.

I do agree that while our hymns are not the "only true and living" hymns or musical style approved by God, that they are part of a gospel "brand." Just like the way missionaries dress is not the only true and living way that God would approve for God's messengers--but they are part of the brand. And the Angel Moroni on temples. Or using Thee and Thou in prayers. Or using the KJV. Or the style of our buildings. They are a source of comfort as people move from place to place throughout the world. Sort of like the golden arches of McDonalds. There is a uniformity that is comforting. Not because it is inherently better consistent with some eternal standard, but because the uniformity itself (the "correlation") helps establish a common core and common connection among members.

I personally prefer contemporary Christian music to what we sing on Sundays. I find it more uplifting, on the whole, than much of what we sing. But it is "off-brand." But I hope, over time, more "off-brand" things will be included in the LDS brand--after all, we aspire to include all that is good, virtuous and beautiful.

[Scott Lloyd]

I have not read all of the thread. Scott, I don't think there is anything wrong with your choir singing the version of Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory, if the bishopric approves.

 

I had already come to terms with it and was looking forward to doing it. The problem I'm encountering now is that the accompaniment seems to be beyond the proficiency level of our pianist. She's a high school student, highly talented, but we all have our limitations. She asked if I could make a simplified arrangement, but that might be beyond my proficiency level.

 

I have been in wards where the bishopric only allows hymns from the green book to be sung in Sacrament meetings, even as special choir numbers. I have been in wards where professional opera singers who belong to the ward or stake have sung religious numbers not in the hymnal, and in operatic form. Most wards seem to allow hymns and Mormon quasi-pop music. I have not been in a ward where guitars have been allowed (even though the handbook does not forbid them--when I pointed that out to a bishop, he simply said, "As long as I am bishop there will be not guitar playing in sacrament meeting.

 

For Christmas we performed "Mary, Did You Know?", rather pop oriented but still quite appropriate, I thought. I made an arrangement for a duet by the bishop and his son, with the choir doing backing vocals. It was quite well-received. I even toyed with the idea of playing acoustic guitar for the first portion of it, but could not quite muster the nerve. Probably all for the best.

 

I agree that the handbook does not preclude guitar playing, if it is appropriate. For next Christmas, I may try to work out something with guitar accompaniment of "Slent Night," since that's how it was first performed.

 

I see nothing wrong with Amazing Grace. At one point it was in the hymnal. Special musical numbers do not have to come from our correlated hymnal.

 

I don't believe "Amazing Grace" has ever been in the hymnal, and I have a pretty clear memory of the 1948 hymnbook (the one that preceded the one we use now). But I'm open to correction on this.

 

I do know that the Tabernacle Choir has performed "Amazing Grace," as did the now-defunct Mormon Youth Chorus.

 

I agree that choir and special musical selections do not have to come from the hymnal. At Christmas time, for example, we performed "Good King Wenceslas" and "O Come, O Come, Emmanuel."

 

I do agree that while our hymns are not the "only true and living" hymns or musical style approved by God, that they are part of a gospel "brand." Just like the way missionaries dress is not the only true and living way that God would approve for God's messengers--but they are part of the brand. And the Angel Moroni on temples. Or using Thee and Thou in prayers. Or using the KJV. Or the style of our buildings. They are a source of comfort as people move from place to place throughout the world. Sort of like the golden arches of McDonalds. There is a uniformity that is comforting. Not because it is inherently better consistent with some eternal standard, but because the uniformity itself (the "correlation") helps establish a common core and common connection among members.

 

I very much agree with this. Liturgy should be unifying and comforting, and some degree of uniformity is necessary for this to happen.

 

I personally prefer contemporary Christian music to what we sing on Sundays. I find it more uplifting, on the whole, than much of what we sing. But it is "off-brand." But I hope, over time, more "off-brand" things will be included in the LDS brand--after all, we aspire to include all that is good, virtuous and beautiful.

 

As I said, "Mary Did You Know?" was quite well received when our choir performed it. And we did it both for the sacrament meeting program and for our stake Christmas devotional that involved participation from all the ward choirs in the stake.

 

Of course, I made certain that the lyrics conform with our doctrine. I believe they do, and quite well.

 

In fact, I might be open to doing something else in the future from a "contemporary Christian" vein if appropriate, not necessarily a Christmas song. Do you have any suggestions?

 

*You might be thinking of "Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing." It was in the 1948 hymnal. But it was seldom sung, and when the 1985 hymnal was compiled, it was dropped. Thereafter, Mack Wilberg did his arrangement, first with BYU groups and then with the Tabernacle Choir, and it became very popular among Church members. Many people have wondered why it was dropped in 1985. They don't understand that prior to 1985, relatively few Church members were acquainted with it.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[mfbukowski]

Very decent summary.

 

"In the period between the sixteenth and eighteenth centuries a considerable number of Scots migrated to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Some sojourned there for some time, while others stayed permanently and exercised commercial business and crafts. The migration stopped in the eighteenth century, and the Scots who remained in Poland seem to have lost their ethnic identity. This book offers an examination and assessment of this migration: numbers of migrants; patterns of settlement; laws regulating Scottish presence in Poland-Lithuania; their commercial, academic, religious and military activities; their social advancement into the Polish nobility; their assimilation and then the eventual disappearance as a distinct ethnic group in Poland-Lithuania."

http://www.brill.com/scots-polish-lithuanian-commonwealth-16th-18th-centuries

Thanks!  I had no idea!

 

I'm changing my name to McBukowski

Edited January 6, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

It doesn't say he is exalted. It says he mingles with Gods. It is a fair assumption that he plays a key role in directing the work that is going on the Spirit World at the moment in bringing the message of salvation to those who have not yet received it and that, as such, he confers intimately with God the Father and Jesus Christ.

 

We need not be bound to any one specific definition of ascend or heaven, especially a sectarian definition. To me, these terms in a poetic sense could easily apply to those who die in the Lord and to the state of existence we call paradise.

Fine.

 

It's a wonderful hymn and every missionary should sing it at the front door of each person they contact.

 

It will give an excellent first impression of the church.

[Calm]

Fine.

It's a wonderful hymn and every missionary should sing it at the front door of each person they contact.

It will give an excellent first impression of the church.

I think there is a difference between recognising what it means to those who sing it (in general) and observing how outsiders respond to it when they don't understand the cultural overtones to it.

I think one can love the hymn for what it says to oneself while still being aware of why others view it as problematic.

Wouldn't be the first time outsiders view the things a group values as weird and wrong.

Edited January 6, 2014 by calmoriah

[mfbukowski]

Brilliant pun. =)

 

Check out the Hungarian long-flute. One has to practically hum into it.

 

Incredible!

 

But for some reason I thought how different that performance would be if the flute player was dressed in a Hawaiian shirt and shorts and flip flops.    Yes, I am weird.

 

Definitely a cool outfit!

[mfbukowski]

I think there is a difference between recognising what it means to those who sing it (in general) and observing how outsiders respond to it when they don't understand the cultural overtones to it.

I think one can love the hymn for what it says to oneself while still being aware of why others view it as problematic.

Wouldn't be the first time outsiders view the things a group values as weird and wrong.

That goes back again to artist's intent vs what other people see.

 

Should we expect people to instantly understand "cultural overtones"?

 

If our missionaries dressed like members of Chabad, would anyone listen?  Is this website designed to allow outsiders to "view the things a group values as weird and wrong." ?  http://mormon.org/people

[why me]

Fine.

 

It's a wonderful hymn and every missionary should sing it at the front door of each person they contact.

 

It will give an excellent first impression of the church.

I think that all faiths have their cultural roots in the songs that they sing. In the catholic church, the mass can usually end in Salve Regina. It is a wonderful catholic song.

 

 

But maybe not for Mormons or for protestants. For the lds, praise to the man signifies the love that the early saints had for their murdered prophet. I think that it is a wonderful song and one which speaks to the traitors and enemies of the church today.

[why me]

That goes back again to artist's intent vs what other people see.

Listen to this catholic song and notice the pictures of Mary. Do you believe that she looked like these artists' interpretations? Such is art. So, the critics attempt to score points about mormon art. But what about catholic art or protestant art?

 

[wenglund]

Forget about getting our groove on. What we LDS need is...more cow bell,,.

 

http://www.nbc.com/assets/video/widget/widget.html?vid=n41046"

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited January 7, 2014 by wenglund

[mfbukowski]

Forget about getting our groove on. What we LDS need is...more cow bell,,.

 

http://www.nbc.com/assets/video/widget/widget.html?vid=n41046"

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mfbukowski]

Listen to this catholic song and notice the pictures of Mary. Do you believe that she looked like these artists' interpretations? Such is art. So, the critics attempt to score points about mormon art. But what about catholic art or protestant art?

 

Somehow I don't think you understand my point.

 

I used to be Catholic and in fact in this thread I mentioned that I missed Gregorian chant.  I used to pray the "Salve Regina" in both Latin and English.  I don't have a problem with the Catholic veneration of Mary- it's just not something I would do, but unquestionably it is a phenomenally beautiful tradition.  I kind of wish we had that with Heavenly Mother, but that would make us even more misunderstood.

 

My comment to calmoriah about artist's intentions was about an earlier discussion we had about the fact that once one makes a piece of art, it is "out there" with a life of its own, and we cannot expect that the artist's intentions are known or important to others.  People react to their own prejudices and understandings of a work of art- and though it's nice to know what the artist was trying to do, it's largely irrelevant to the way people see the art, unless it comes pre-packaged with a long description of all that which people are unlikely to read or understand anyway.

 

So really I am not sure what you are saying in these last few posts at all.

Edited January 7, 2014 by mfbukowski

[volgadon]

Incredible!

 

But for some reason I thought how different that performance would be if the flute player was dressed in a Hawaiian shirt and shorts and flip flops.    Yes, I am weird.

 

Definitely a cool outfit!

 

If Hungarian villages are even remotely siilar to Russian and Ukrainian ones, then they probably do dres that way. =)

[Scott Lloyd]

Fine.

 

It's a wonderful hymn and every missionary should sing it at the front door of each person they contact.

 

It will give an excellent first impression of the church.

I might not suggest singing it at the front door of each person they contact. But I believe every investigator should be taught very early on about the role of the Prophet Joseph Smith in the restoration of the gospel, why we honor him, and why he is worthy of such honor. And certainly, we shouldn't hide from the outside world the fact that we feel that way.

 

In acknowledging that he had mortal imperfections, it is becoming way too fashionable, even among our own people, to minimize his greatness and even to denigrate him in an unseemly way. Hence we get people like DBMormon suggesting the other day that it is tolerable to have someone using Church class or meeting time to say that Joseph Smith "had serious character flaws."

Edited January 7, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Stone holm]

I might not suggest singing it at the front door of each person they contact. But I believe every investigator should be taught very early on about the role of the Prophet Joseph Smith in the restoration of the gospel, why we honor him, and why he is worthy of such honor. And certainly, we shouldn't hide from the outside world the fact that feel that way.

 

In acknowledging that he had mortal imperfections, it is becoming way too fashionable, even among our own people, to minimize his greatness and even to denigrate him in an unseemly way. Hence we get people like DBMormon suggesting the other day that it is tolerable to have someone using Church class or meeting time to say that Joseph Smith "had serious character flaws."

 

Yep, you nailed it.  Speak no evil of the Lord's Annointed -- all in favor of emphasizing our peculiarities right up front.  But I would probably prefer that they sang "Hie Unto Kolob

[Senator]

I have always wished that "Amazing Grace" (which is one of the greatest hymns ever...which began as a sermon) was one of our hymns.

 

They would have to change the lyrics to "amazing grace, after all we can do".

[Senator]

My second favorite hymn, what's not to like?

 

Its over-use

[Scott Lloyd]

Yep, you nailed it.  Speak no evil of the Lord's Annointed -- all in favor of emphasizing our peculiarities right up front.

If by "peculiarities," you are referring to the scriptural expression of being a peculiar people, absolutely.

 

Or, alternatively, I suppose we could try to become like any other Protestant sect and glory in our redundancy.

 

 

But I would probably prefer that they sang "Hie Unto Kolob

 

I'm not acquainted with that title.

 

But there is a hymn the Latter-day Saints sing with a similar title, "If You Could Hie to Kolob." It has profound words and, in the current hymnbook, a beautiful musical setting. We've sung it in sacrament meeting as a congregation and as a ward choir.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Scott Lloyd