Can We Mormons Get Our Groove On?

[mfbukowski]

If Hungarian villages are even remotely siilar to Russian and Ukrainian ones, then they probably do dres that way. =)

Gotta get over there- maybe this summer!  I have never visited even Poland. 

There was this little thing called the "Iron Curtain" back in my world traveler days!  Gotta remedy that!

[mfbukowski]

If by "peculiarities," you are referring to the scriptural expression of being a peculiar people, absolutely.

 

Or, alternatively, I suppose we could try to become like any other Protestant sect and glory in our redundancy.

 

I'm not acquainted with that title.

 

But there is a hymn the Latter-day Saints sing with a similar title, "If You Could Hie to Kolob." It has profound words and, in the current hymnbook, a beautiful musical setting. We've sung it in sacrament meeting as a congregation and as a ward choir.

I guess correlation is watching every moment, huh?

[mfbukowski]

I might not suggest singing it at the front door of each person they contact. But I believe every investigator should be taught very early on about the role of the Prophet Joseph Smith in the restoration of the gospel, why we honor him, and why he is worthy of such honor. And certainly, we shouldn't hide from the outside world the fact that we feel that way.

 

In acknowledging that he had mortal imperfections, it is becoming way too fashionable, even among our own people, to minimize his greatness and even to denigrate him in an unseemly way. Hence we get people like DBMormon suggesting the other day that it is tolerable to have someone using Church class or meeting time to say that Joseph Smith "had serious character flaws."

I also think it is important to teach investigators that we get to express and have our own opinions on these matters.

 

That is what the Spirit is for and how we differ from other churches.

[Scott Lloyd]

I also think it is important to teach investigators that we get to express and have our own opinions on these matters.

 

 

I think that would depend very much on the substance of the opinion and the time and setting in which it is expressed.

 

Beginning in the 1860s, apostle Amasa Lyman began preaching sermons that denied the reality and necessity of the Atonement. He subsequently confessed his error to the Quorum of the Twelve and wrote a letter of apology to the Church. But not long afterward he began doing the same thing, thus failing to live up to his confession and apology. This time, he was stripped of his apostleship and ultimately excommunicated from the Church.

 

In this, I am not comparing Joseph Smith to Christ. I am only illustrating the point that we don't have altogether unfettered permission to express whatever opinion strikes our fancy within an official Church setting.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[mfbukowski]

In this, I am not comparing Joseph Smith to Christ. I am only illustrating the point that we don't have altogether unfettered permission to express whatever opinion strikes our fancy within an official Church setting.

Yes, I think we all know that and was not at all what I was saying.

 

But the Spirit must always come first in our lives- for those of us who are converts- had we not followed the spirit first we would not have been here in the first place.

[Scott Lloyd]

Yes, I think we all know that and was not at all what I was saying.

 

But the Spirit must always come first in our lives- for those of us who are converts- had we not followed the spirit first we would not have been here in the first place.

I certainly can't disagree with that.

[halconero]

I might not suggest singing it at the front door of each person they contact. But I believe every investigator should be taught very early on about the role of the Prophet Joseph Smith in the restoration of the gospel, why we honor him, and why he is worthy of such honor. And certainly, we shouldn't hide from the outside world the fact that we feel that way.

 

In acknowledging that he had mortal imperfections, it is becoming way too fashionable, even among our own people, to minimize his greatness and even to denigrate him in an unseemly way. Hence we get people like DBMormon suggesting the other day that it is tolerable to have someone using Church class or meeting time to say that Joseph Smith "had serious character flaws."

 

Agreed. It would be the same as spending Sunday School focusing on Moses killing someone, neglecting to perform an ordinance for his child, and using his priesthood in anger, or on Peter denying Christ, temporarily going back on his revelation to extend the Gospel to the Gentiles. Yes, these were imperfect men, but if I as a teacher only had 30-45 minutes to teach some thirsting souls about these men I wouldn't dedicate the entirety of it to those things.

[teddyaware]

I, for one, am a Mormon who's most certainly got his grove on...

[Stone holm]

If by "peculiarities," you are referring to the scriptural expression of being a peculiar people, absolutely.

 

Or, alternatively, I suppose we could try to become like any other Protestant sect and glory in our redundancy.

 

I'm not acquainted with that title.

 

But there is a hymn the Latter-day Saints sing with a similar title, "If You Could Hie to Kolob." It has profound words and, in the current hymnbook, a beautiful musical setting. We've sung it in sacrament meeting as a congregation and as a ward choir.

I believe we are a peculiar people and that we have peculiar beliefs and should not be shy or coy about discussing them. Thanks for the song title correction, never was very good at name that tune.

[Bernard Gui]

 

You might have really thought you'd joined a cult if the Church hadn't changed the lyrics to the second verse:

1. 2. Praise to his mem'ry, he died as a martyr;
   Honored and blest be his ever great name!
   Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins,
   Plead unto heav'n while the earth lauds his fame.

The last line used to read "Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins, stain Illinois while the earth lauds his fame.  It went with the old oath of vengeance which hung around till the turn of the century.

Also, apparently it might have been written by Eliza R. Snow Smith, not W.W. Phelps as printed in the hymnbook.  Although she attributed it to Phelps in the hymnbook she herself edited.

http://www.mormonchronicle.com/who-really-wrote-praise-to-the-man/

 

I often sing those words instead of the modern version.

[Bernard Gui]

The hymn has much to do with mormon culture and history and needs to be understood in its time frame. It is a beautiful hymn written at a time of deep hurt among the saints. And they expressed that hurt beautifully. The lds have plenty of songs to the savior. Joseph Smith saw his mission to the end. He sacrificed his life for what he believed in. As did his brother. And he was much loved. Thus, the song was a ways and means to relieve the hurt among the saints. And to show their friend respect.

 

Also the words are relevant today as traitors and tyrannts fight him in vain. And as the song says miilions shall know brother joseph again. Which is actually true.

 

My sentiments exactly. I think we should have a bumper sticker...."Millions Shall Know Brother Joseph Again."

It could spark some good missionary conversations.

I have no problem with a hymn lauding Joseph Smith. Perhaps it could be set to another tune.

[Bernard Gui]

Plenty of Scots-Irish in Poland since the 1600s.

So, who had the bagpipes first? The Scot/Irish or the Polish?

[volgadon]

So, who had the bagpipes first? The Scot/Irish or the Polish?

 

The Syrians.

[Scott Lloyd]

My sentiments exactly. I think we should have a bumper sticker...."Millions Shall Know Brother Joseph Again."

It could spark some good missionary conversations.

I have no problem with a hymn lauding Joseph Smith. Perhaps it could be set to another tune.

Easily.

 

But tell me again: What's wrong with the tune it has now?

 

Edited to add:

 

The words would work with the same tune as "Come Ye Disconsolate," #115 in the hymnbook. There may be others.

 

Edited further to add:

 

Another that would work is the tune of "Hail to the Brightness of Zion's Glad Morning," #42.

 

Yet another: "Where Can I Turn for Peace?" #129

Edited January 8, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I believe we are a peculiar people and that we have peculiar beliefs and should not be shy or coy about discussing them.

I agree with this.

 

But the word peculiar in scripture does not have the meaning we might be inclined to draw from it. See here.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[why me]

Easily.

 

But tell me again: What's wrong with the tune it has now?

There is nothing wrong with the tune. I don't know why people would not like the tune or the song. This is the first time I am seeing mormons criticize such a wonderful song. When I hear that tune, I think of brother joseph going off to prison, singing a poor wayfaring man of grief while in prison and then dying violently before viewing the mortal wound that killed his brother.

 

And how the saints love the man and sung the song in his honor. However what the criticism does show is the abandonment of the person who founded the faith and gave his life for it, leaving a wife and children behind and a mother.

[why me]

 

My comment to calmoriah about artist's intentions was about an earlier discussion we had about the fact that once one makes a piece of art, it is "out there" with a life of its own, and we cannot expect that the artist's intentions are known or important to others.  People react to their own prejudices and understandings of a work of art- and though it's nice to know what the artist was trying to do, it's largely irrelevant to the way people see the art, unless it comes pre-packaged with a long description of all that which people are unlikely to read or understand anyway.

 

So really I am not sure what you are saying in these last few posts at all.

Mormon artists are often criticized for showing the translation process as they wish to see it. Mormons take much criticism for this. But mormons are not alone with an artist interpretation of religious reflections. We have artists' interpretations of Mary, being white and blue eyed. Was she? Was she so beautiful? And yet, one does not criticize any church for showing Mary in such a light as Mormons are criticized with the implication of lying. And that was my point. If I misunderstood you...I am sorry.

[Scott Lloyd]

Easily.

 

But tell me again: What's wrong with the tune it has now?

 

Edited to add:

 

The words would work with the same tune as "Come Ye Disconsolate," #115 in the hymnbook. There may be others.

 

Edited further to add:

 

Another that would work is the tune of "Hail to the Brightness of Zion's Glad Morning," #42.

 

Yet another: "Where Can I Turn for Peace?" #129

Of course, just because the words fit the meter of a particular tune does not necessarily mean that the words would be consistent with the mood of that tune.

 

One wag has suggested that Emily D-i-c-kinson's poem "Because I Could Not Stop for Death" could be sung to the tune of "Yellow Rose of Texas."

 

Also, Robert Frost's "On Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening" can be set to the tune of "Hernando's Hideaway."

 

He will not see me stopping here

To watch his woods fill up with snow. Ole!

Edited January 8, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[mfbukowski]

Mormon artists are often criticized for showing the translation process as they wish to see it. Mormons take much criticism for this. But mormons are not alone with an artist interpretation of religious reflections. We have artists' interpretations of Mary, being white and blue eyed. Was she? Was she so beautiful? And yet, one does not criticize any church for showing Mary in such a light as Mormons are criticized with the implication of lying. And that was my point. If I misunderstood you...I am sorry.

Oh, ok!

 

No misunderstanding at all!!  We agree- and I would add that for me, everything humans make is "art".  Ever word spoken every sentence written is "art".  That actually is a point the philosopher John Dewey makes quite clearly.

 

So for me, the larger point is that this applies to everything we do- we create cultural views of the world, and then the cultural views that ages of humans have created program future generations in that culture.

 

So everything we see, we see through our own enculturated personal view, and really, there is nothing else.   We cannot escape it, there is no way to get beyond these issues.

 

So really that is why I use that calmoriah quote in my siggy, because when she wrote that, it encapsulated this point very well for me, and I wanted a quote from someone we all know instead of some famous philosopher that no one knows.  But she captured it exactly, but unfortunately I had to cut it short because siggys can only be a certain length now.

 

But to criticize someone for seeing it their way is to criticize everyone for seeing anything- it's just an absurd point of view.  We all do it- that's what humans do.

 

We even see pictures in the clouds, we take matter unorganized and mentally organize it.  That is what God does, and that is what we embryo baby godlings do in our little ways as well.

 

If we did not do that, we would not be human.  It is our greatest defining characteristic.

Edited January 8, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Also, Robert Frost's "On Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening" can be set to the tune of "Hernando's Hideaway."

 

He will not see me stopping here

To watch his woods fill up with snow. Ole!

Now THAT is just plain WRONG, immoral and probably fattening also!! 

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I'd love to see a once-a-month worship service where all believers in the Book of Mormon could come together for a night of more contemporary worship and preaching- setting aside our differences and focusing only on Jesus, the Book of Mormon, and the glorious Restoration.

[Bernard Gui]

I personally prefer contemporary Christian music to what we sing on Sundays. I find it more uplifting, on the whole, than much of what we sing. But it is "off-brand." But I hope, over time, more "off-brand" things will be included in the LDS brand--after all, we aspire to include all that is good, virtuous and beautiful.

 

This is the problem....many find contemporary Christian music objectionable, so to introduce it into our sacrament meetings would cause

some hard feelings, same with other types of music that people "prefer." Musical taste is such an intensely personal thing. Often our identities

are closely bound to our musical preferences. I think it is best to have an approved hymnody that we use in our services rather than to try

to accommodate everyone's personal styles.  I see no reason to go outside the camp of fine LDS church musicians to find music and text for

our hymns. We have people capable of creating excellence. What we lack is the will to jettison the dross because someone in authority harbors

special feelings for it, for example, How Great Thou Art, In Our Lovely Deseret, and others, so it is added to or retained in our hymnody.

 

For a revelation on what could be done in our Church, just peruse the New Oxford Book of Carols. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Oxford_Book_of_Carols

Edited January 9, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[The Nehor]

Was she so beautiful?

 

According to Nephi....yes.

[Bernard Gui]

Easily.

 

But tell me again: What's wrong with the tune it has now?

 

Edited to add:

 

The words would work with the same tune as "Come Ye Disconsolate," #115 in the hymnbook. There may be others.

 

Edited further to add:

 

Another that would work is the tune of "Hail to the Brightness of Zion's Glad Morning," #42.

 

Yet another: "Where Can I Turn for Peace?" #129

Just that the melody was derived from

 

scotland the brave

 

and although I love the hymn, I can't sing it without thinking of the pipes and drums.

Don't get me wrong...there is a place for pipes and drums....on the battlefield, but not in sacrament meeting.

 

 

I would like to see an LDS composer set it to a new melody. Something worthy of the subject.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

There is nothing wrong with the tune. I don't know why people would not like the tune or the song. This is the first time I am seeing mormons criticize such a wonderful song. When I hear that tune, I think of brother joseph going off to prison, singing a poor wayfaring man of grief while in prison and then dying violently before viewing the mortal wound that killed his brother.

 

And how the saints love the man and sung the song in his honor. However what the criticism does show is the abandonment of the person who founded the faith and gave his life for it, leaving a wife and children behind and a mother.

 

Please don't mistake my criticism of the melody (derived from Scotland the Brave) with a criticism of the text.

The criteria for a good hymn is an equal marriage of melody and text. In this case, the melody, though rousing,

is derived from the piper tune Scotland the Brave, and really is not up to snuff, no offense to our Scottish friends.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Bernard Gui