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Where gods and matter end?

nuclearfuels

By nuclearfuels
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JLHPROF Grand Master

JLHPROF

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, longview said:

Is it possible for Universe to be infinite?  If so, the Big Bang could NOT have produced it.

 

The universe can be a finite part of the infinite if we posit the existence of multiple universes much as Joseph did with eternity/eternities.

Edited by JLHPROF
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JLHPROF Grand Master

JLHPROF

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Always been confused by this lyric from If You Could Hie to Kolob

Is there an actual doctrine of a final curtain where gods and matter end?

No, the hymn is saying there is no such thing.

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The Nehor Grand Master

The Nehor

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, longview said:

Is it possible for Universe to be infinite?  If so, the Big Bang could NOT have produced it.

 

We don’t know nearly enough about the Universe or the sort of singularity theorized As the Big Bang Theory to say that.

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clarkgoble Grand Master

clarkgoble

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Always been confused by this lyric from If You Could Hie to Kolob

Is there an actual doctrine of a final curtain where gods and matter end?

There's no formal doctrine of this but if there's an endless regress of Gods and spirits are matter then there has to be infinite space in some sense, although not necessarily the Cartesian infinite that W. W. Phelps most likely imagined. (Our universe is finite)

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JAHS Grand Master

JAHS

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

There's no formal doctrine of this but if there's an endless regress of Gods and spirits are matter then there has to be infinite space in some sense, although not necessarily the Cartesian infinite that W. W. Phelps most likely imagined. (Our universe is finite)

Our universe might be finite but is outer space finite? I don't see how it can be. Hard to comprehend.

Robert F. Smith Grand Master

Robert F. Smith

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, longview said:

Is it possible for Universe to be infinite?  If so, the Big Bang could NOT have produced it.

There is an infinity of Big Bangs in the infinite multiverse.

Some children believe that a new one is produced every time Froggy the Gremlin plunks his magic twanger.

 

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strappinglad Grand Master

strappinglad

Posted
Posted (edited)

In math there are an infinite number of Complex numbers. Within that set there are an infinite number of Whole numbers, Integers,  Rationals , Irrationals etc.

Rings within rings within shells. Dividing a Natural number by Zero yields an undefined/infinite result. My old math teacher actually had penned into his bible in Exodus the 11th commandment ," Thou shalt not divide by zero." And yet we do so and create problems, contradictions and opportunity.

I struggle with no beginning and no end. That is why I know that I was NOT one of the ' noble and great intelligences ' from the BoA . If creation and time are circular , then I kind of get the idea. Otherwise....boggle.:blink:

Edited by strappinglad
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3DOP Grand Master

3DOP

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

It’s turtles all the way down. 

That is a joke I don't get. Or a suggestion that is over my head. Or is it a proposition that I need to accept?

mfbukowski Grand Master

mfbukowski

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, longview said:

Is it possible for Universe to be infinite?  If so, the Big Bang could NOT have produced it.

 

This ain't science- its beyond what we know by definition.  Religion aint science, science aint religion

mfbukowski Grand Master

mfbukowski

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

That is a joke I don't get. Or a suggestion that is over my head. Or is it a proposition that I need to accept?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

 

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Robert F. Smith Grand Master

Robert F. Smith

Posted
Posted
15 hours ago, JAHS said:

Our universe might be finite but is outer space finite? I don't see how it can be. Hard to comprehend.

Our "universe" is only the observable universe.  We can only see a limited distance, and we have no idea what lies beyond.

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JAHS Grand Master

JAHS

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Our "universe" is only the observable universe.  We can only see a limited distance, and we have no idea what lies beyond.

I am thinking in terms of the multiverse concept, where multiple universes have existed eternally, each with their own creator and our universe that we live in is finite and separate from the others.
"We can come to no other conclusion, but that worlds, and systems of worlds, and universes of worlds existed in the boundless heights and depths of immensity…". (Parley P. Pratt, First Great Cause. 1851. p. 5.)
"Can we get away from it? No; for it fills all the intermediate spaces between world and world, between one system and another, and between universe and universe ... and there is no space in which there is no kingdom, and there is no kingdom in which there is no space" (Mar 14, 1875) (Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses Volume 1 the Adam-God Revelation, chapters 12:6; 25:24; 126:7)

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Robert F. Smith Grand Master

Robert F. Smith

Posted
Posted
36 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I am thinking in terms of the multiverse concept, where multiple universes have existed eternally, each with their own creator and our universe that we live in is finite and separate from the others.
......................................

We do not know that.  It may be that many gods created different parts of this observable universe, quite apart from other universes, which we cannot see.  It may be that our galaxy is the only creation of our God the Father, thus far, since he began His existence as divine at a particular point in time in the past.  Before that He would have been the spirit child of his Father, and before that an eternal intelligence, in an  infinite regress back through time and eternity.  These are mysteries which we mortals cannot comprehend.

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clarkgoble Grand Master

clarkgoble

Posted
Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

This ain't science- its beyond what we know by definition.  Religion aint science, science aint religion

I'm not sure I'd say that. It's definitely among the popular scientific hypotheses in physics. There are compelling reasons from GR and QM to suspect something like it is true. But there's no way to test it empirically. Ditto string theory. I'd call that scientific but it's not a well established scientific theory.

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

I am thinking in terms of the multiverse concept, where multiple universes have existed eternally, each with their own creator and our universe that we live in is finite and separate from the others.

If one accepts the typical reading of the King Follet Discourse and Sermon in the Grove such that there's an endless regress of Gods then the finite universe, big bang, and heat death of the universe pose a huge theologic hurdle. So I think mainstream Mormon thought pretty well demands a multiverse.  However not all Mormon thinkers accept this. Some such as Blake Ostler in his theological volumes thinks there was a beginning and God the Father was literally the first God with no father.

20 hours ago, JAHS said:

Our universe might be finite but is outer space finite? I don't see how it can be. Hard to comprehend.

Depends upon what you mean by "outer space." 

Typically we think of space as a quasi-substance we're "in." That's the more Newtonian conception. The alternative explanation is Leibniz' that space is emergent from the relationship of "monads." (For Leibniz basically souls) Einstein preferred a Leibnizian fully relational model of space and time. While it's debatable about whether he achieved that with General Relativity the rough idea is that space isn't a container in the sense Newton thought (and that goes way back to the early Greek philosophers). In that case you can think of space-time as one set of relations. However there's nothing in relativity that says we only have to have one collection of space-time. We could have others. When you add Quantum Mechanics to General Relativity odd things happen. It turns out as you go very small the uncertainty principle allows massive objects - black hole level objects. This means space becomes rather "foamy" consisting of black hole like objects that dissipate once you get past the uncertainty time. A common view is that each of these can product a big bang like phenomena and thus other universes. There's indirect evidence for something like this via detection of primordial gravity waves from the formation of the universe right after the big bang. But it's not really enough to count as empirical evidence.

Of course explaining all this gets complicated fast and really requires a fair bit of background with physics - in particular the math of GQ and QM.

23 hours ago, longview said:

Is it possible for Universe to be infinite?  If so, the Big Bang could NOT have produced it.

Depends upon what you mean by infinite here. There's pretty abundant evidence that the universe if finite in both mass/energy and size though. However there were questions about how fast the universe was expanding that for a while suggested it might expand forever. We're still learning a lot about how fast the universe is expanding and whether it's consistent in all directions though. Right now the observational evidence suggests it's expanding faster than our theories suggest it should be. This is why physicists think there's missing energy in the universe we've not accounted for. (So called dark energy)

Edited by clarkgoble
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mfbukowski Grand Master

mfbukowski

Posted
Posted
27 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I'm not sure I'd say that. It's definitely among the popular scientific hypotheses in physics. There are compelling reasons from GR and QM to suspect something like it is true. But there's no way to test it empirically. Ditto string theory. I'd call that scientific but it's not a well established scientific theory.

Misunderstanding. My point was that religion is not science

 

6EQUJ5 Rising Star

6EQUJ5

Posted
Posted
On 9/10/2018 at 5:32 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Gray is correct.  There was no beginning.  There shall be no end.

I always thought it was weird President Hinckley didn't understand this doctrine.  I've been taught it my whole life in the Church.

longview Grand Master

longview

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Our "universe" is only the observable universe.  We can only see a limited distance, and we have no idea what lies beyond.

We can only see as far as the lifespan of the photon.

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strappinglad Grand Master

strappinglad

Posted
Posted

I don't know , but I've been told , that the observable universe is DEADLY to organic life ( as we know it ) . Without very precise controls and protections life could not begin let alone thrive. Much is made of all the planets discovered, and hope springs eternal for intelligent life beyond Earth. So far....noseeums.

Robert F. Smith Grand Master

Robert F. Smith

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

I always thought it was weird President Hinckley didn't understand this doctrine.  I've been taught it my whole life in the Church.

Pres Hinckley may have been playing it cagey for the outside media, not wishing to discuss the mysteries with the unwashed masses.

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