Is There Still Room In The Church For "on-The Spot" Doctrinal Revelation?

[ERayR]

Not sure how to help you understand.

 

A remedial reading course?

[Coreyb]

I wouldn't really classify any of your examples as "doctrinal" revelations. I have met people who spout off random pronouncements about mormon things and i didn't take them seriously. Perhaps people only took Joseph's random revelations seriously, because he also produced long, meaningful revelations as well. Also I second the CFR

[cinepro]

The quotes are in the OP and can be googled from a dozen different sources, including the BYU website.

 

Are those all from the same book?

[JLHPROF]

Are those all from the same book?

 

Not at all.

For the two topics you CFR'd...:

I consider the first one more evidence than the second issue.

 

 At Evening Prayer Circle: Presidnt Yog said Joseph the Prophet told me that the garden of Eden was in Jackson Co Missouri, & when Adam was driven out of the garden of Eden He went about 40 Miles to the Place which we Named Adam Ondi Ahman. & there built an Alter of Stone & offered Sacrifise, that Alter remains to this day I saw it as Adam left it, as did many others, & through all the revolutions of the world that Alter had not been disturbed. Joseph also said that when the City of Enoch fled & was translated it was where the gulf of Mexico now is, it left that gulf a body of water. – Journal of Wilford Woodruff, March 30, 1873

AND

One may reasonably ask to where this city will return. Joseph Young Sr. notes that “Joseph Smith said . . . in the hearing of some of the saints still surviving, that the City of Enoch would again take its place in the identical spot from which it had been detached, now forming that chasm of the earth, filled with water, called the Gulf of Mexico” (Widtsoe, John A. “Enoch.” Juvenile Instructor (June 1901) 36:363–66).

 

AND OTHERS

 

And #2, which is admittedly more poorly evidenced:

 

 

There are two main sources used to back up this theory. The first is the lyrics of a hymn written by Eliza R. Snow. The hymn appears as no. 322 of the 1905 hymn book, 5th verse.

"And when the Lord saw fit to hide The ten lost tribes away, Thou, earth, was severed to provide The orb on which they stay."

 

AND

 

"Yes, sir, I think I can answer your question. Sister Eliza R. Snow, in visiting my grandparents (Mr. and Mrs. Benjamin Brown), was asked by my grandmother: 'Eliza where did you get your ideas about the Ten Lost Tribes being taken away as you explain in your wonderful hymn?

"She answered as follows: 'why, my husband (The Prophet Joseph Smith) told me about it.'

 

"Have you any other information that your grandfather ever gave you, as contained in any conversation with the Prophet Joseph Smith?

 

"I have! One evening in Nauvoo, just after dark, somebody rapped at the door vigorously. Grandfather said he was reading the Doctrine and Covenants. He rose hurriedly and answered the summons at the door, where he met the Prophet Joseph Smith.

 

"He said, 'Brother Brown, can you keep me over night, the mobs are after me?' Grandfather answered, 'Yes. Sir. It will not be the first time, come in.'

 

"'Al1 right,' the Prophet said, shutting the door quickly. He came in and sat down. Grandmother said: 'Brother Joseph, have you had your supper?'

"'No he answered, 'I have not.' So she prepared him a meal, and he ate it.

 

Afterward they were in conversation relative to the principles of the Gospel. During the conversation the ten lost tribes were mentioned. Grandfather said, 'Joseph, where are the ten tribes?' He said, "Come to the door and I will show you, come on Sister Brown, I want you both to see.'

 

"It being a starlight night the Prophet said: "Brother Brown, you show me the Polar Star?'" 'Yes sir,' he said, pointing to the North Star. 'There it is.' 'Yes, I know' said the Prophet, 'but which one? There are a lot of stars there.'

 

"Grandfather said: 'Can you see the points of the Dipper?' The Prophet answered, 'Yes,' 'Well," he said, "trace the pointers, pointing up to the largest star. That is the North Star.'

 

"The Prophet answered: 'You are correct. Now,' he said, pointing toward the star, 'do you discern a little twinkler to the right and below the Polar star, which we would judge to be about the distance of 20' from here?'

 

"Grandfather answered, 'Yes, sir.'

 

"The Prophet said: 'Sister Brown, do you see that star also?'

 

"Her answer was, 'Yes, sir.'

 

"'Very well then,' he said, 'Let's go in.' After re-entering the house the Prophet said: 'Brother Brown, I noticed when I came in that you were reading the Doctrine and Covenants. Will you kindly get it?'

 

"He did so. The Prophet turned to Section 133 and read, commencing at the 26th verse and through the 34th verse. He said, after reading the 31st verse, 'Now let me ask you what would cause the Everlasting Hills to tremble with more violence than the coming together of two planets. And the place whereon they reside will return to this earth. Now,' he said, 'Scientists will tell you that it is not scientific: that two planets corning together would be disastrous to both; but, when two planets or other objects are traveling in the same direction and one of them with a little greater velocity than the other, it would not be disastrous, because the one traveling faster would overtake the other. Now, that would cause the mountains of ice to melt quicker than the heat caused by the friction of the two planets coming together?' And then he asked the question. 'Did you ever see a meteor falling that was not red hot? So that would cause the mountains of ice to melt.'

 

"'And relative to the Great Highway ,which should be cast up when the planet returns to its place in the great Northern Waters, it will form a highway and waters will recede and roll back.' He continued, 'Now as to their coming back from the Northern Waters; they will return from the north because their planet will return to the place from whence it was taken.'

 

"Relative to the waters rolling back to the north. If you take a vessel of water and swing it rapidly around your head you won’t spill any, but if you stop the motion gradually, it will begin to pour out. Now,' he said, 'Brother Brown, at the present time this earth is rotating very rapidly. When this planet returns it will make the earth that much heavier, and it will then revolve slower, and that will account for the waters receding from the earth for a great while, but it has now turned and is proceeding rapidly eastward."  (Robert W. Smith, The Last Days (SLC: Pyramid Press, 1947), pg 225-27) AND  Parley P. Pratt, Millennial Star, Vol. 1, pg 258 (Question 7).

 

 

But in all fairness on the second one there is as much hearsay evidence for the "North Pole theory" and the "Hollow Earth theory" and the "Knob on the Earth theory" since all are attributed to Joseph (see: http://emp.byui.edu/huffr/A%20Scriptural%20Search%20for%20the%20Ten%20Tribes%20and%20Other%20Things%20We%20Lost.htm)

[JLHPROF]

I wouldn't really classify any of your examples as "doctrinal" revelations. I have met people who spout off random pronouncements about mormon things and i didn't take them seriously. Perhaps people only took Joseph's random revelations seriously, because he also produced long, meaningful revelations as well. Also I second the CFR

 

I provided the quotes to google.  But, I will (and just did) answer the CFR.  But that's  not my point.

 

My point is that as Mormons we were willing to take the random, unscriptural pronouncements of the prophet as the word of God for the first half of the Church's existence.  Now we are not.

Did we lose something or gain something in this change in our faith level?  And why are some "folk doctrines" accepted readily by Church members and leaders and others are dismissed as nonsense?

[The Nehor]

Not sure how to help you understand.

 

I think you're talking nonsense so I think first you have to convince me otherwise. Good luck.

[Coreyb]

I provided the quotes to google.  But, I will (and just did) answer the CFR.  But that's  not my point.

 

My point is that as Mormons we were willing to take the random, unscriptural pronouncements of the prophet as the word of God for the first half of the Church's existence.  Now we are not.

Did we lose something or gain something in this change in our faith level?  And why are some "folk doctrines" accepted readily by Church members and leaders and others are dismissed as nonsense?

My point is that you probably are more ready to accept these stranger and rather random revelations attributed to Joseph because you trust him as an oracle. Now do you trust him based on his resume of past revelations or his position as president of the church? If it's the latter, is there anyone in the current church hierarchy you would trust with similar random revelations, even without a resume that that of Joseph? I don't think I would

[JLHPROF]

My point is that you probably are more ready to accept these stranger and rather random revelations attributed to Joseph because you trust him as an oracle. Now do you trust him based on his resume of past revelations or his position as president of the church? If it's the latter, is there anyone in the current church hierarchy you would trust with similar random revelations, even without a resume that that of Joseph? I don't think I would

 

You raise interesting questions.  I also don't think there is anyone in the current Church hierarchy I would trust with similar revelations.  It's not just an issue of trust or position for Joseph.  It's an issue of the spirit of his sermons and teachings.  I have never seen or heard of anyone who so clearly could part the veil and gaze into eternity.

There is no doubt in my mind that if Joseph says the Brother of Jared was called Mahonrimoriancumr or that the City of Enoch used to be where the Gulf of Mexico is that he had that revealed to him by the Lord.  Perhaps I'm a bit gullible, but these folk doctrines of the 19th Century church do more to boost my testimony of the gospel than the most perfectly drawn scriptural discourse we get today.

I want prophets who can part the veil and get direct answers from the Lord, not just prophets that read the scriptures pretty well.  I want the prophet who can close their eyes, offer a prayer and get an instant revelation.  Who can look at a man and a woman and know they belong as spouses, who can give a patriarchal blessing that is accurate and from the Lord.  I want to trust all the prophets the way I trust Joseph Smith, because I know by the spirit he was in almost constant communication with the Lord.

[Paddy]

You raise interesting questions.

It is an interesting question because elder bednar attempted a similar thing in conference regarding the birth date of Jesus and it caused an issue, for various reasons, for many people. Imagine if he stated something to be revelation that was far more serious and potentially more illogical. I suspect it would be very divisive.

[JLHPROF]

It is an interesting question because elder bednar attempted a similar thing in conference regarding the birth date of Jesus and it caused an issue, for various reasons, for many people. Imagine if he stated something to be revelation that was far more serious and potentially more illogical. I suspect it would be very divisive.

 

It's true.  And because I've heard the teaching before from many sources including two presidents of the Church, my inclination is to believe it, even if it is folk doctrine.  I like to believe these harmless little "possible truths".  I think that it shows a little faith and if it's proven wrong it harms absolutely nothing.

 

It's the story of Israel Barlow and the horsewhip Joseph made him buy....put aside the proof requirements and show a little faith.