Mahonri's Watercraft

[LeSellers]

I must be the only one I know who was impressed about the Jaredites coming over in what sounded like a very ancient version of the submarine.

That's a wide-spread misunderstanding of the early Ether passages. Mahonri and his brother did not build "submarines".

We don't know exactly what they looked like, but we do know a few things about these barges.

First, since the group had built many other water craft for crossing lakes and rivers as they traversed (probably) Europe*, they had skill in these arts. No river requires a "submarine".

* Hugh Nibley hypothesized Asia, but it doesn't fit for me. First, to cross the Atlantic from Asia requires some interesting navigation. However, and in addition (hypothetically) it wasn't until much later that Peleg was born (in his days was the earth divided–Gen 10:25), long after Jared fled Babel, so who knows?

Second, the Lord gave* Mahonri sixteen small stones to light the interiors of the barges, so we know they were sealed, and in contrast to their earlier vessels, which evidently needed no lights. These new ocean-going craft also needed air vents, unlike their predecessors.

* I know the story; just making it fit here.

A vessel "tight like unto a dish" still lets some water in through any hole in the bottom because the air pressure inside the boat is less (slightly, but growing as the depth increases) than the pressure of the water outside. So, those holes in the bottoms of the barges were not opened except while on land (it took nearly a year to cross the ocean—far too long with raging winds and seas) to pick up fresh water, food, and other supplies. During these "port calls", they would have hauled the boats up on shore and drained the bilges. Imagine living in a closed boat for a year with animal and human waste accumulating on the floor.

Since the barges were rather small (the length of a tree), they can't have been too tall, either—meaning the people and animals were, at best, a few feet above the keel.

You might remember that the Lord told Mahonri to open the upper vents for air as needed, but He never said anything about removing the plugs in the bottoms of the boats.

I am not among those who believe this, but there are many smart people who think that these barges were not very stable—that they might be flipped upside down. If so, the second hole would have assured there was always a hole above for air. (A slight alternative would be that the hauling of the barges onto land might have caused them to tip over. This is more likely, in my mind. I can't see life inside a boat that turned over during high seas: hard way to sleep—sailors on wooden vessels millennia later slept in hammocks so the swaying of the ship helped them sleep. I have a hard time envisioning a hammock that would let the occupant stay asleep during a complete rollover, not to mention things falling all around them.)

Finally, when the Lord told Mahonri that they would be buried, and that they would have waves crashing over them, I refer you to any World War II movie with ships vastly larger than the Jaredite barges. You'll see huge waves partially submerging those massive craft. Think of poor Jared in his tiny boat. I suspect the image of the waves crashing over them, as if they were like whales, would have been frightening to the men, terrifying to the women and children. The Lord's promise that they would always pop back up to the surface was comforting. Any "burial" in the depths of the sea would have been very short-lived. We use the same term, "buried under the water", to describe baptism.

Anyway, there are serious problems with the account if we try to make the Jaredite barges into submarines. Those problems go away when we see them as large, floating boxes that would have to face the huge Atlantic waves most LDS scholars think Mahonri and his brother braved.

Some hypoethsize that Mahorni's water craft, being “barges”, had no way of steering because they were not powered. He bases this on the definition of "barge". However, "barge" meant something different in 1828 than it does today.

[barge, and bark or barque, a ship, are radically one word.]

1. A pleasure boat; a vessel or boat of state, furnished with elegant apartments, canopies and cushions, equipped with a band of rowers, and decorated with flags and streamers; used by officers and magistrates.

2. A flat-bottomed vessel of burthen, for loading and unloading ships.

While definition 2 is very much like (although not identical to) our common XXI usage, we still recognize that Cleopatra (for instance) had a barge very much like that identified in the more common definition. It was powered, and it was fitted with living quarters, etc. Joseph Smith would have been familiar with this usage, and the word "barge" was likely the best one in his idiolect that would fit the word in the Hebrew text.

Further, we tend to lose sight of the fact that Ether, unlike the rest of the Book of Mormon, is a translation (by Joseph) of an abridgment (by Moroni) of a translation (also by Moroni) of an abridgment (by Ether) of a record by two millennia of prophets. It hardly seems reasonable for people to base any case on the lack of detail evident in Moroni's (and hence, Joseph's) work.

[mfbukowski]

So you think they were powered?

[LeSellers]

So you think they were powered?

Not by oars, at least. It could be they were sailing vessels, but I have no real reason to assume they were.

Since Ether tells us they need light to steer by, it seems a good conclusion that there was some sort of rudder and wheel or tiller.

Lehi

Edited February 28, 2012 by LeSellers

[Gervin]

Further, we tend to lose sight of the fact that Ether, unlike the rest of the Book of Mormon, is a translation (by Joseph) of an abridgment (by Moroni) of a translation (also by Moroni) of an abridgment (by Ether) of a record by two millennia of prophets. It hardly seems reasonable for people to base any case on the lack of detail evident in Moroni's (and hence, Joseph's) work.

For the non-believer, the problem is that there's too much detail in the Book of Mormon, resulting in a story that is wholly implausible.

Since Ether tells us they need light to steer by, it seems a good conclusion that there was some sort of rudder and wheel or tiller

Need light to steer by? What verse is that?

[LeSellers]

Need light to steer by? What verse is that?

19 And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish.

Enjoy,

Lehi

[Gervin]

Enjoy,

Lehi

Thanks. I'd forgotten that verse - the only one that equates light with steering (oddly my original version only has a comma, not a semicolon, after "light"). I wonder how one steers in a ship where you can't see out outside? I'd like to see some stout-hearted handcart-style pioneers replicate the voyage. WIth flashlights in place of the glowing rocks.

[LeSellers]

I wonder how one steers in a ship where you can't see out outside?

Who said they couldn't see outside? Not Ether.

Just because the barges were "tight, like unto a dish", does not mean they couldn't unplug the air hole and take a look around anytime they weren't being swamped by the waves.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

I'd forgotten that verse - the only one that equates light with steering (oddly my original version only has a comma, not a semicolon, after "light").

I'm sure you remember that the punctuation in the "original version [edition?]" was not a product of Joseph Smith or Oliver Cowdery, right?

Grandin's typesetter, Gilbert, added it as he went. He didn't know the story, and he got a lot of it wrong, in my opinion. But it was a difficult job, and he did a professional job, even though he was an opponent of Joseph Smith's and the Restoration.

I think a colon would have been better than the semicolon, and much better than a comma.

19 And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish.

19 And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light, whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish.

19 And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light: whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish.

19 And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light—whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish.

They're all similar, obviously, but there are subtle distinctions that are worth thinking about.

Lehi

[Gervin]

Who said they couldn't see outside? Not Ether.

Just because the barges were "tight, like unto a dish", does not mean they couldn't unplug the air hole and take a look around anytime they weren't being swamped by the waves.

Lehi

The air hole was for air, not steering.

"And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood."

Sort of odd that they had to be instructed to plug the air hole lest the ship fill with water and sink.

[LeSellers]

The air hole was for air, not steering.

Dual usage is far from uncommon in ships. Hard as it may be to fathom, we even have examples of dual usage in things other than ships.

Lehi

[Gervin]

Dual usage is far from uncommon in ships. Hard as it may be to fathom, we even have examples of dual usage in things other than ships.

Lehi

I concede that as a fact; they had to do something with all the animal and human waste.

[ebeddoulos]

I think a colon would have been better than the semicolon, and much better than a comma.

They're all similar, obviously, but there are subtle distinctions that are worth thinking about.

Lehi

Just for fun, I checked Royal Skousen's "The Book of Mormon: The Earliest Text". He formatted the test thusly:

And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light.

Whither shall we steer?

And also we shall perish,

for in them we cannot breathe

save it is the air which is in them;

therefore we shall perish.

Interestingly, he chose a period.

[zerinus]

I must be the only one I know who was impressed about the Jaredites coming over in what sounded like a very ancient version of the submarine.

That's a wide-spread misunderstanding of the early Ether passages. Mahonri and his brother did not build "submarines".

He probably said that tongue in cheek. The barges were a kind of "submarine". If they were completely enclosed and waterproof, and could be buried under the sea without water seeping in, then they were a kind of submarine. It does remain a mystery though why God would command them to cross the sea in such uncomfortable conditions, when He could have instructed them to build sailing vessels like the Nephite ship.

[zerinus]

I concede that as a fact; they had to do something with all the animal and human waste.

I believe that the "hole in the bottom" was specifically designed for disposing their waste products. It would have been more than just a "hole". Presumably it would have been constructed with a series of trap doors to enable them to eject their waste products without being flooded.

[guitarist]

I believe that the "hole in the bottom" was specifically designed for disposing their waste products. It would have been more than just a "hole". Presumably it would have been constructed with a series of trap doors to enable them to eject their waste products without being flooded.

Actually, it may not have required any kind of contraption beyond the "plug" at all--if you keep the top plugged up, and the whole ship is watertight, unplugging the bottom should actually prevent water from seeping in at any real quantity--it's like taking an upside down cup, and pushing it into a sink filled with water--the air has no where to go, so it prevents the water from coming in.

[cdowis]

He probably said that tongue in cheek. The barges were a kind of "submarine".

I prefer "submersible", since a submarine implies that it was almost always underwater, while submersible indicates that it *could* be submerged.

As to propulsion, as I remember Nibley, the weather patterns were different from today and the Sahara desert was created by a continual wind in one direction. This implies that they were primarily on the surface and the wind was pushing them in one direction.

Edited February 29, 2012 by cdowis

[Mariner]

Actually, it may not have required any kind of contraption beyond the "plug" at all--if you keep the top plugged up, and the whole ship is watertight, unplugging the bottom should actually prevent water from seeping in at any real quantity--it's like taking an upside down cup, and pushing it into a sink filled with water--the air has no where to go, so it prevents the water from coming in.

So, by this reasoning, one should be able to drill a hole in the hull of an airtight nuclear submarine and expect the air pressure inside to prevent water from entering the vessel in any real quantity.

Certainly the US Navy, having paid billions of dollars to design and build the leak proof pressure hulls of these vessels, will be shocked to find out that they have wasted their money.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Mariner

[LeSellers]

I believe that the "hole in the bottom" was specifically designed for disposing their waste products. It would have been more than just a "hole". Presumably it would have been constructed with a series of trap doors to enable them to eject their waste products without being flooded.

This presupposes that the égout was used while under weigh. I doubt that. Modern ships with such systems typically use over pressure to eject the effluent. It seems a bit of a stretch to imagine the Mahonri had the ability to pressurize his barges.

There is no reason to reject the idea of layovers, complete with bilge draining operations, replenishment (food, water, other supplies), and R'n'R. The duration of the sea voyage demands it.

Lehi

[cdowis]

It has been suggested that the barges had a moon pool. See the description in wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_pool

At the waterline

In a monohull ship the bottom of the hull is below sea level and the water rises inside the opening of the moon pool, so that from inside the hull, the moon pool looks like a swimming pool in the floor. Water will not enter the hull and sink the ship provided the sides of the moon pool extend up inside the hull well above the waterline, as shown in part B of the diagram. This kind of moon pool is also open to the air above the ship. Doors would be used to close the bottom of the moon pool when the ship is moving, or in rough weather. The sides of the moon pool are quite deep as they need to be greater than the draft of the ship by a margin of safety.

Below the waterline

It is possible to have a moon pool below the waterline and to keep water out of the chamber above it, if the chamber is airtight rather than open to the atmosphere above in any way. This arrangement is shown in part C of the diagram. Air pressure inside the chamber prevents water rising in the moon pool up to sea level. To keep the chamber airtight, access from the chamber to the rest of the ship is via an airlock with airtight doors. The design of the ship and its safety systems need to take into account the possibility of an air leak or catastrophic failure of the airlock.

In this arrangement the sides of the moon pool can be fairly shallow, and it can be used in a deep-draft ship without wasting space.

Edited February 29, 2012 by cdowis

[guitarist]

So, by this reasoning, one should be able to drill a hole in the hull of an airtight nuclear submarine and expect the air pressure inside to prevent water from entering the vessel in any any real quantity.

Certainly the US Navy, having paid billions of dollars to design and build the leak proof pressure hulls of these vessels will shocked to find out that they have wasted their money.

A US Navy submarine goes much farther below the surface of the water than a waterproof "box" that occasionally has waves splash over it. Also, a nuclear sub has no need for an open hole in the middle of their boat. But the physics are still the same--the amount of air pressure required in a nuclear sub to keep the pressure of the water from crushing it will keep a certain equilibrium with the water, as mentioned in cdowis' moon pool reference above.

[guitarist]

I should also mention that the idea of the moon pool does not apply if the water opening is anywhere other than the bottom of the ship. The leak proofing designs employed in the nuclear subs ensure leaks don't occur anywhere else, where the principles behind the "moon pool" don't apply.

[cdowis]

Capt Richard Rothery has a great deal of experience in this area (the moon pool was his suggestion). I suggest that you download his article http://www.google.co...4uAl7SngGmM65Ew

Edited February 29, 2012 by cdowis

[LeSellers]

Actually, it may not have required any kind of contraption beyond the "plug" at all--if you keep the top plugged up, and the whole ship is watertight, unplugging the bottom should actually prevent water from seeping in at any real quantity--it's like taking an upside down cup, and pushing it into a sink filled with water--the air has no where to go, so it prevents the water from coming in.

So, by this reasoning, one should be able to drill a hole in the hull of an airtight nuclear submarine and expect the air pressure inside to prevent water from entering the vessel in any real quantity.

<snarkasm snipped>

At modest depths, this is true: the amount of water would be minimal, but a lot of things have to be perfect, not least of which is the seal on any other orifice (e.g., the upper air vent in Mahonri's craft). That's not reasonably certain. However, guitarist's point would valid for the case in point, if we assume such a good plug, even though I do not.

My hypothesis is that Jared's fleet made many stops along their way from (probably) Europe to what is now the Mexican gulf coast. They removed the "bilge bungs" in dry (or semi-dry) dock, and the vessels cleaned and restocked while the crews/passengers took much-needed R'n'R.

Lehi

[guitarist]

Capt Richard Rothery has a great deal of experience in this area (the moon pool was his suggestion). I suggest that you download his article http://www.google.co...4uAl7SngGmM65Ew

very nice article! Well thought out.

[CV75]

RE: the 16 small stones, it only says that the Lord touched them (Ether 3:6) and also gave him 2 other “seer” stones (verses 23, 24 , 28). It is possible that the 16 stones may have provided, in addition to visual light for comfort or even to read maps with (Ether 6:2, 3), “instructional light” like the Liahona, helping them to receive directions wherewith to steer.