Mahonri's Watercraft

[zerinus]

Rod,

I know that you are a blue water sailor. My issue with the Pacific passage is that the Kurosho to North Pacific Drift to California current route should not have required 344 days.

My issue with a launch from west Africa is again, that 344 days is a long time and it is more likely that they would have ended up in the north moving Gulf stream than in the Caribbean. Had they entered the Gulfs stream, as you know, they would and remained several miles offshore along the North American east coast and eventually returned to Europe.

Neither of your routes requires 344 days and neither requires fierce winds since, as you correctly imply, it is drift and set of the currents that are the determining factor here.

Also, if the barges were constructed as described in the Book of Ether, there would be are a number of other problems with them on a 344 journey.

One theory is that the earth at that point in time was a much larger sphere than it is today. Several early leaders of the Church have suggested that the earth when it was created was a much larger sphere, and large chunks of it have been separated from it at various times such as when God took the people of Enoch to heaven. Their physical environment was also taken with them. From your incredulous point of view this is no doubt another Mormon "fiction" like the the Jaredite story itself, or like the dividing of the earth in the days of Peleg; but assuming that God is a God of miracles, and that He is capable of performing such incredible feats, that is a plausible explanation. I personally adhere to the view that such actions are perfectly within the remit of God's supernatural power to perform.

Edited March 1, 2012 by zerinus

[Mariner]

What I question is the need for these semi-submersible type vessels. Why not build conventional sailing craft similar to Lehi and co?

From what I can tell there doesn't seem to be any scientific record of decades, or even years long exceedingly angry weather patterns c. 3000-2000 B.C. that would necessitate such craft.

But there is a record of Phoenician, Egyptian and Austronesian peoples making passages in *open* vessels c. this time period.

Nice to see some insightful questions on these issues coming from another experienced ocean sailor. These are good questions, and ones which I have not seen addressed by the faithful in discussions of the unlikely sea saga of the Book of Ether.

[mfbukowski]

I have already mentioned that I do not take the passages literally.

But it is a losing battle to demonstrate conclusively that the passages are not nor could they possibly be literal.

The bottom line to me, is that if God wanted to do it that way, that is the way it would happen and any other conjecture is just that. Perhaps a literal interpretation is not the most likely way that such a thing could happen, but the critic is in the position of proving that it could not possibly have happened that way.

So if you take it literally or figuratively, ultimately the critical position is going to be the losing side in this argument.

[rodheadlee]

And you are clearly the only one here qualified to even comment. Glad to see you back- where are you going on your next voyage?

Thanks, we're in Florida heading for Panama and then up to Caifornia. We got a late start out of Annapolis and we stopped to work on the boat for a month in New Bern, NC and then another stop in Charleston, SC for 3 weeks. We have all the bugs worked out now and we'll be leaving Cocoa soon. I stayed to watch a launch of an Atlas V rocket, very cool.

[mfbukowski]

Thanks, we're in Florida heading for Panama and then up to Caifornia. We got a late start out of Annapolis and we stopped to work on the boat for a month in New Bern, NC and then another stop in Charleston, SC for 3 weeks. We have all the bugs worked out now and we'll be leaving Cocoa soon. I stayed to watch a launch of an Atlas V rocket, very cool.

Excellent! I'm jealous!

[rodheadlee]

What I question is the need for these semi-submersible type vessels. Why not build conventional sailing craft similar to Lehi and co?

From what I can tell there doesn't seem to be any scientific record of decades, or even years long exceedingly angry weather patterns c. 3000-2000 B.C. that would necessitate such craft.

But there is a record of Phoenician, Egyptian and Austronesian peoples making passages in *open* vessels c. this time period.

That would depend on the route and season. There are exceedingly angry weather patterns if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, 50 foot seas are not all that uncommon north of 40*N or south of 40* S in their winter seasons or cyclone, hurricane typhoon season in the tropical lattitudes.

Edited March 2, 2012 by rodheadlee

[Mariner]

One theory is that the earth at that point in time was a much larger sphere than it is today. Several early leaders of the Church have suggested that the earth when it was created was a much larger sphere, and large chunks of it have been separated from it at various times such as when God took the people of Enoch to heaven. Their physical environment was also taken with them. From your incredulous point of view this is no doubt another Mormon "fiction" like the the Jaredite story itself, or like the dividing of the earth in the days of Peleg; but assuming that God is a God of miracles, and that He is capable of performing such incredible feats, that is a plausible explanation. I personally adhere to the view that such actions are perfectly within the remit of God's supernatural power to perform.

I trust that you not really expecting a critic's response to this. These kinds of blatant anti-science claims by individuals who are leaders in the Church, some at the highest levels, are a reason that folks like me have left. It would seem as if you are in good company when it comes to scriptural literalism. In an article published in the Ensign, Jeffrey Holland has stated, as was claimed by an earlier post on this thread, that the 30 - 100 million year old Atlantic Basin was actually formed around the time of the fictional Tower of Babel (within the last 10,000 years).

[rodheadlee]

Rod,

I know that you are a blue water sailor. My issue with the Pacific passage is that the Kurosho to North Pacific Drift to California current route should not have required 344 days.

My issue with a launch from west Africa is again, that 344 days is a long time and it is more likely that they would have ended up in the north moving Gulf stream than in the Caribbean. Had they entered the Gulfs stream, as you know, they would and remained several miles offshore along the North American east coast and eventually returned to Europe.

Neither of your routes requires 344 days and neither requires fierce winds since, as you correctly imply, it is drift and set of the currents that are the determining factor here.

Also, if the barges were constructed as described in the Book of Ether, there would be are a number of other problems with them on a 344 journey.

Rod,

I know that you are a blue water sailor. My issue with the Pacific passage is that the Kurosho to North Pacific Drift to California current route should not have required 344 days.

My issue with a launch from west Africa is again, that 344 days is a long time and it is more likely that they would have ended up in the north moving Gulf stream than in the Caribbean. Had they entered the Gulfs stream, as you know, they would and remained several miles offshore along the North American east coast and eventually returned to Europe.

Neither of your routes requires 344 days and neither requires fierce winds since, as you correctly imply, it is drift and set of the currents that are the determining factor here.

Also, if the barges were constructed as described in the Book of Ether, there would be are a number of other problems with them on a 344 journey.

Actually someone did a study of the Japan to Mexico route and it was about 344 days running the current. I can try to find the link but I happen to think they stopped along the way.

[mfbukowski]

I trust that you not really expecting a critic's response to this. These kinds of blatant anti-science claims by individuals who are leaders in the Church, some at the highest levels, are a reason that folks like me have left. It would seem as if you are in good company when it comes to scriptural literalism. In an article published in the Ensign, Jeffrey Holland has stated, as was claimed by an earlier post on this thread, that the 30 - 100 million year old Atlantic Basin was actually formed around the time of the fictional Tower of Babel (within the last 10,000 years).

I'm really not sure why this would affect your spiritual testimony if indeed you ever had one. Do you actually think that the scriptures are intended to be scientific texts?

This is just so far from my understanding of the world it is as if you are speaking Martian or something. I don't think I have ever thought that way in my entire life, even when I was an atheist myself.

I always understood that certain important ideas could not be shown to be true by science. Ethics and morality is certainly one huge such area.

Edited March 2, 2012 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

We have an excellent experimental basis for testing how long it takes for material from Japan to make it to the West Coast of the US- I seem to remember something about a Tsunami in Japan about a year ago??

This from TODAY'S Huntington Post:

The first pieces of flotsam began to hit the United States in late 2011;

http://www.huffingto..._n_1273478.html

Let's see- the Tsunami was in late March last year, sounds like some of the flotsam made it in less that 344 days.

So much for that theory.

Of course I don't think it made any stops on the way....

Edited March 2, 2012 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Actually someone did a study of the Japan to Mexico route and it was about 344 days running the current. I can try to find the link but I happen to think they stopped along the way.

Don't bother. It's already been proven that you are approximately right.

[Anijen]

I agree with rodheadlee.

[rodheadlee]

We have an excellent experimental basis for testing how long it takes for material from Japan to make it to the West Coast of the US- I seem to remember something about a Tsunami in Japan about a year ago??

This from TODAY'S Huntington Post:

http://www.huffingto..._n_1273478.html

Let's see- the Tsunami was in late March last year, sounds like some of the flotsam made it in less that 344 days.

So much for that theory.

Of course I don't think it made any stops on the way....

Yeah but that is the Pacific Northwest and it almost has been a year. DId you see the video at the bottom of the article? What a shame.

[Mariner]

I'm really not sure why this would affect your spiritual testimony if indeed you ever had one. Do you actually think that the scriptures are intended to be scientific texts?

This is just so far from my understanding of the world it is as if you are speaking Martian or something. I don't think I have ever thought that way in my entire life, even when I was an atheist myself.

I always understood that certain important ideas could not be shown to be true by science. Ethics and morality is certainly one huge such area.

So does this mean that in your home it would be fine with you if your son or daughter failed a natural history test in school because he or she believed what an Apostle of the Lord, even Jeffrey R. Holland, said about the timeframe in which the continents of the Eastern and Western hemispheres separated, (and missed the dates by more than 30 million years)?

[mfbukowski]

I agree with rodheadlee.

It's pretty hard to argue with the evidence when evidence counts.

We know that that still doesn't prove that the BOM is spiritually true- that only comes with a testimony of course.

[mfbukowski]

So does this mean that in your home it would be fine with you if your son or daughter failed a natural history test in school because he or she believed what an Apostle of the Lord, even Jeffrey R. Holland, said about the timeframe in which the continents of the Eastern and Western hemispheres separated, (and missed the dates by more than 30 million years)?

Man, you totally missed it. No, I am saying that Holland was not speaking about science, and if he thought he was, he was mistaken. Science presents a comprehensive world view based on evidence which has nothing to do with what justifies spiritual beliefs.

Incidentally my son is a physics student and he totally understands that what he is studying has nothing to do with his spiritual beliefs. That's something you need to understand. You are just not getting this whole point I have been talking about on multiple threads with you.

I don't know how else to say it. Science has nothing to do with spirituality. I have said that many times in many ways, but you persist in not wanting to hear that. I even sent you to a website on fideism and you didn't understand.

I suppose I should just give up

Incidentally, that doesn't mean that I think Elder Holland was "wrong"- he was just not speaking science.

Edited March 2, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Gervin]

But it is a losing battle to demonstrate conclusively that the passages are not nor could they possibly be literal.

It's certainly a losing battle to demonstrate conclusively to a member of the LDS Church that the passages could not be literal, which isn't quite the same as the losing battle an LDS member faces attempting to demonstrate conclusively that the passages could be literal.

[zerinus]

I trust that you not really expecting a critic's response to this. These kinds of blatant anti-science claims by individuals who are leaders in the Church, some at the highest levels, are a reason that folks like me have left. It would seem as if you are in good company when it comes to scriptural literalism. In an article published in the Ensign, Jeffrey Holland has stated, as was claimed by an earlier post on this thread, that the 30 - 100 million year old Atlantic Basin was actually formed around the time of the fictional Tower of Babel (within the last 10,000 years).

The answer to that is given in the Book of Mormon:

2 Nephi 9:

O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

29 But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

31 And wo unto the deaf that will not hear; for they shall perish.

32 Wo unto the blind that will not see; for they shall perish also.

33 Wo unto the uncircumcised of heart, for a knowledge of their iniquities shall smite them at the last day.

I adhere to the view that, “with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26).

[Mariner]

Man, you totally missed it. No, I am saying that Holland was not speaking about science, and if he thought he was, he was mistaken. Science presents a comprehensive world view based on evidence which has nothing to do with what justifies spiritual beliefs.

Incidentally my son is a physics student and he totally understands that what he is studying has nothing to do with his spiritual beliefs. That's something you need to understand. You are just not getting this whole point I have been talking about on multiple threads with you.

Oh I understand, alright. I just don't buy it.

I don't know how else to say it. Science has nothing to do with spirituality. I have said that many times in many ways, but you persist in not wanting to hear that. I even sent you to a website on fideism and you didn't understand.

I suppose I should just give up

Incidentally, that doesn't mean that I think Elder Holland was "wrong"- he was just not speaking science.

Elder Holland was making a series of falsifiable statements of fact in support of the truthfulness of LDS scripture. In the Ensign he stated, among other things, that the Eastern and Western Hemispheres separated forming the Atlantic Basin less than 10,000 years ago, that the flood of Noah was a literal global flood, and that the New World remained uninhabited after the flood of Noah until the arrival of the Jaredites sometime around 2500 BC.

All of these statements of fact are false, and demonstrably so. Do you really believe that these demonstrably false statements can somehow magically be true just because they were made by a Church leader and appeared in a Church publication?

Does the fact that these false statements were made by an LDS Church leader simply exempt them from reasoned scrutiny or evaluation in light of fact?

Edited March 2, 2012 by Mariner

[zerinus]

Oh I understand, alright. I just don't buy it.

I am reliably informed that the people in the days of Noah did not "buy" the Flood either.

Elder Holland was making a series of falsifiable statements . . .

And how do you propose to "falsify" it--apart from the ad-nauseum repetition of your own incredulity?

[Matthew J. Tandy]

I would be interested in Mariner and others, such as Gervan, analyzing what I posted. You seem to have acknowledged it, then simpy returned to Lehi's version. I am always happy to further refine the data based on critical feedback.

[cdowis]

In an article published in the Ensign, Jeffrey Holland has stated, as was claimed by an earlier post on this thread, that the 30 - 100 million year old Atlantic Basin was actually formed around the time of the fictional Tower of Babel (within the last 10,000 years).

snip

All of these statements of fact are false, and demonstrably so. Do you really believe that these demonstrably false statements can somehow magically be true just because they were made by a Church leader and appeared in a Church publication?

Does the fact that these false statements were made by an LDS Church leader simply exempt them from reasoned scrutiny or evaluation in light of fact?

You do understand that this represents his opinion, regardless of his position in the church and where it was published.

We have discussed this opinion vs doctrine many times regarding the two Hill Cumorah theme, for example. Many issues in the BM has been clarified over the past several decades. The chronology of the Bible, like the BOM geography, is not a doctrinal issue and subject to further research. We would expect that the chronology of the Bible to be clarified with further scrutiny and research.

Edited March 2, 2012 by cdowis

[Mariner]

You do understand that this represents his opinion, regardless of his position in the church and where it was published.

We have discussed this opinion vs doctrine many times regarding the two Hill Cumorah theme, for example. Many issues in the BM has been clarified over the past several decades. The chronology of the Bible, like the BOM geography, is not a doctrinal issue and subject to further research. We would expect that the chronology of the Bible to be clarified with further scrutiny and research.

As I understand it, and as so often repeated by bcspace and others, on this board and elsewhere, statements by LDS General Authorities that appear in official Church publications are to be considered as LDS Church doctrine.

If such statements, when they turn out to be demonstrably false as in this case, can simply be moved from "doctrine" or official Church teachings of God-inspired men, to mere personal "opinion", then on what basis is one to rely on the statements of Church Leaders in the first place, or indeed at all?

And there is another problem. If these statements are indeed opinion and turn out to be wrong, then one would think that an honest individual would recognize their error and thereafter take pains to correct it, less others be mislead by their unintentional false statements.

One of the most valuable among the self-correcting features of the enterprise of science, for example, comes from peer review, the practice of openly recognizing contrary evidence, and acknowledging and correcting mistakes when they are made. A great example of this was provided recently by the group at CERN that released data to the public on supposedly faster than light neutrinos and later traced this erroneous result to loose cables in their equipment. If there are examples of Church leaders doing this (other than in egregious cases such as that of Elder Paul Dunn, for example) I am not aware of them.

[mfbukowski]

It's certainly a losing battle to demonstrate conclusively to a member of the LDS Church that the passages could not be literal, which isn't quite the same as the losing battle an LDS member faces attempting to demonstrate conclusively that the passages could be literal.

That was a pointless post.

So what?

[mfbukowski]

Oh I understand, alright. I just don't buy it.

Elder Holland was making a series of falsifiable statements of fact in support of the truthfulness of LDS scripture. In the Ensign he stated, among other things, that the Eastern and Western Hemispheres separated forming the Atlantic Basin less than 10,000 years ago, that the flood of Noah was a literal global flood, and that the New World remained uninhabited after the flood of Noah until the arrival of the Jaredites sometime around 2500 BC.

All of these statements of fact are false, and demonstrably so. Do you really believe that these demonstrably false statements can somehow magically be true just because they were made by a Church leader and appeared in a Church publication?

Does the fact that these false statements were made by an LDS Church leader simply exempt them from reasoned scrutiny or evaluation in light of fact?

No, you clearly do not understand it.

Elder Holland is an educated man- he was the president of a university. Do you REALLY think that he thought he was teaching a science lesson when he spoke in conference??

Do you REALLY think his objective was to put aside and deny all of science in one talk?

If you really think he is that stupid, I don't even know why you post here. Your great and vaulted intellect is wasted speaking to us.

You just don't get it at all.

Your understanding of "truth and falsity" is extremely naive and you do not understand contexts. Everything is black or white to you, and your thinking is without nuance

Edited March 2, 2012 by mfbukowski