Mahonri's Watercraft

[LeSellers]

RE: the 16 small stones, it only says that the Lord touched them (Ether 3:6) and also gave him 2 other “seer” stones (verses 23, 24 , 28). It is possible that the 16 stones may have provided, in addition to visual light for comfort or even to read maps with (Ether 6:2, 3), “instructional light” like the Liahona, helping them to receive directions wherewith to steer.

That's a new insight for me. I'll have to give this some serious thought.

Thanks,

Lehi

[guitarist]

At modest depths, this is true: the amount of water would be minimal, but a lot of things have to be perfect, not least of which is the seal on any other orifice (e.g., the upper air vent in Mahonri's craft). That's not reasonably certain. However, guitarist's point would valid for the case in point, if we assume such a good plug, even though I do not.

My hypothesis is that Jared's fleet made many stops along their way from (probably) Europe to what is now the Mexican gulf coast. They removed the "bilge bungs" in dry (or semi-dry) dock, and the vessels cleaned and restocked while the crews/passengers took much-needed R'n'R.

Lehi

I don't see why they couldn't have a tight seal--they described the ship as a whole being tight like unto a dish. how would they have done that? I forget whether it was mentioned specifically, but tar/pitch is the logical choice, which essentially has the properties of rubber. Why not create their "plug" with cured tar on the edges to seal it up?

[cdowis]

My hypothesis is that Jared's fleet made many stops along their way from (probably) Europe to what is now the Mexican gulf coast. They removed the "bilge bungs" in dry (or semi-dry) dock, and the vessels cleaned and restocked while the crews/passengers took much-needed R'n'R.

OK, and this suggests that the people in the barges could communicate with each other and had some method to steer.

Edited February 29, 2012 by cdowis

[Kevin Christensen]

FYI, Nibley's discussion in An Approach to the Book of Mormon, comparing the Jaredite barges with "the magur-boat that Utnapishtim built to survive the flood" as well as ancient accounts of shining stones for the ark.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=60&chapid=609

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[LeSellers]

I don't see why they couldn't have a tight seal--they described the ship as a whole being tight like unto a dish. how would they have done that? I forget whether it was mentioned specifically, but tar/pitch is the logical choice, which essentially has the properties of rubber. Why not create their "plug" with cured tar on the edges to seal it up?

If this were the case, the plug would have had to have been resealed every time, by re-heating the tar. Not a good idea in a closed vessel where the hole was to provide breathable air at frequent intervals (no less often than once every few hours).

Either that or Mahonri would have had to have had access to machine tools to make his plugs perfectly round and tapered so the variations in the hole would be for tolerances of less than ¹/_10,000". Even then, air would escape and the floor hatch for the bilge would leak some.

So, even if we take your case with air-tight plugs, we still have the question of wear on the plugs. 344 days x 4 open/close cycles per day (a bare minimum in my view) gives 1,376 cycles. I can't imagine a wooden hole, even with a tar gasket, fitting nearly as well at the end of voyage as needed to keep a moon pool from flooding.

There is no need to hypothesize any bilge draining under weigh. They stopped at various islands and such along their course.

CV75 has given us a reasonable explanation for how they could communicate and navigate using the 16 + 2 stones the Lord provided.

Lehi

[guitarist]

So why do you think the Lord commanded them to put holes in the top & bottom of their craft then, if not to periodically unstop them?

[Mariner]

A US Navy submarine goes much farther below the surface of the water than a waterproof "box" that occasionally has waves splash over it. Also, a nuclear sub has no need for an open hole in the middle of their boat. But the physics are still the same--the amount of air pressure required in a nuclear sub to keep the pressure of the water from crushing it will keep a certain equilibrium with the water, as mentioned in cdowis' moon pool reference above.

guitarist,

You should really go back and read a bit more before lecturing other folks on physics related to the design and functional attributes of seagoing vessels.

You apparently didn't know that the pressure inside the crew area of a nuclear submarine is maintained at very near normal atmospheric pressure of approximately 14.7 psi ( 1 atm). That is why the design of these vessels features (very expensive) pressure hulls.

The sea state in storm force winds, such as encountered by the Jaredites according to the Book of Ether, can easily generate waves that exceed 30 feet in height. The pressure at a water depth of 30 feet is approximately two atmospheres.

If the Jaredite barges were buried in the depths of the sea, again as described in the Book of Ether, then their hulls would be subjected to a water pressure of approximately 30 psi or 2 atm, assuming that they had 30 foot waves breaking over the barges.

Do you really think that no "real quantity" of water would enter the interior of these barges through a hole in the bottom of the hull while they were covered by 30 feet of water?

What do you mean by no real quantity?

Here is an equation you could use to work out a reasonable answer the question:

P V =n r T

where,

P is pressure

V is volume

n is the number of moles of air

r is the universal gas constant, and

T is temperature

At equilibrium at a depth of 30 feet, the pressure in the crew compartment would need to be about 30 psi to prevent the further entry of water through the hole in the hull. If the pressure in the crew compartment was 14.7 psi on the surface, how much of the air volume in side the barges do you think would be lost to incoming water at a depth of 30 feet before the pressure in the crew compartment increased to 30 psi (about 2 atm)?

Edited February 29, 2012 by Mariner

[LeSellers]

So why do you think the Lord commanded them to put holes in the top & bottom of their craft then, if not to periodically unstop them?

No one is claiming the holes were not unplugged periodically. I, personally, believe the ones on the top were opened several times a day, as needed for refreshing the air within (just as God commanded them).

I am saying that opening them several times a day would necessarily wear them sufficiently that they would no longer be air/waterproof, and that this means the could not have been any draining of the bottom holes while under weigh since the barges would sink. The reason for this is that the air would leak out the top hole while the water would come up through the bottom hole while it was open (and then all the time as it, too, wore out).

The hypothesis under which I am working is that the Jaredites dragged their vessels ashore from time to time and drained the bilges. They then resealed the bottom plugs, making them water tight, and continued the voyage.

The air holes (atop) were opened frequently, wore somewhat, but had no effect on the water-tightness of the barges because the bottom plugs were not subject to that wear, and, whatever poor fitting they may have demonstrated was overcome by the resealing in dry dock before they hove their boats into the sea to begin the next leg of the trip.

Lehi

Edited February 29, 2012 by LeSellers

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

guitarist,

You should really go back and read a bit more before lecturing other folks on physics related to the design and functional attributes of seagoing vessels.

You apparently didn't know that the pressure inside the crew area of a nuclear submarine is maintained at very near normal atmospheric pressure of approximately 14.7 psi ( 1 atm). That is why the design of these vessels features (very expensive) pressure hulls.

The sea state in storm force winds, such as encountered by the Jaredites according to the Book of Ether, can easily generate waves that exceed 30 feet in height. The pressure at a water depth of 30 feet is approximately two atmospheres.

If the Jaredite barges were buried in the depths of the sea, again as described in the Book of Ether, then their hulls would be subjected to a water pressure of approximately 30 psi or 2 atm, assuming that they had 30 foot waves breaking over the barges.

Do you really think that no "real quantity" of water would enter the interior of these barges through a hole in the bottom of the hull while they were covered by 30 feet of water?

What do you mean by no real quantity?

Here is an equation you could use to work out a reasonable answer the question:

P V =n r T

where,

P is pressure

V is volume

n is the number of moles of air

r is the universal gas constant, and

T is temperature

At equilibrium at a depth of 30 feet, the pressure in the crew compartment would need to be about 30 psi to prevent the further entry of water through the hole in the hull. If the pressure in the crew compartment was 14.7 psi on the surface, how much of the air volume in side the barges do you think would be lost to incoming water at a depth of 30 feet before the pressure in the crew compartment increased to 30 psi (about 2 atm)?

Yawn, I see, Dr W is that you?

[guitarist]

Mariner,

You're right that I'm no expert on US Navy submarines. I'm only commenting on what I know as scuba diver. And as a scuba diver, I'm plenty aware of the issues associated with buoyancy/density of air vs depth in water. Water pressure increases the density of air, were it not so, decompression would be unnecessary, and the bends wouldn't be a problem for anyone.

But back to the actual point in this thread, you're missing a crucial detail. I do not mean to infer that the moon pool would be permanently open, only when they need to open it (presumably when it was calm). The scripture was explicit that they be plugged up if/when the waves come crashing onto it. After all, if the waves are starting to crash onto the boat, that's a good cue to seal up the holes. From there, the 30ft waves that momentarily submerse them are not a problem. It'd be a problem if they stayed that deep, but the boat instead would come rushing back to the surface.

No one is claiming the holes were not unplugged periodically. I, personally, believe the ones on the top were opened several times a day, as needed for refreshing the air within (just as God commanded them).

I am saying that opening them several times a day would necessarily wear them sufficiently that they would no longer be air/waterproof, and that this means the could not have been any draining of the bottom holes while under weigh since the barges would sink. The reason for this is that the air would leak out the top hole while

The hypothesis under which I am working is that the Jaredites dragged their vessels ashore from time to time and drained the bilges. They then resealed the bottom plugs, making them water tight, and continued the voyage.

The air holes (atop) were opened frequently, wore somewhat, but had no effect on the water-tightness of the barges because the bottom plugs were not subject to that wear, and, whatever poor fitting they may have demonstrated was overcome by the resealing in dry dock before they hove their boats into the sea to begin the next leg of the trip.

Lehi

I guess I'm just trying to see what the point of the bottom hole is at all if they were only unstopped at shore to drain the bilges... Wouldn't not having them at all make the boats far more watertight, and using a bucket & cloth to mop up any water that did make it inside make more sense (since you wouldn't have to wait until you go ashore to do that)?

Edited February 29, 2012 by guitarist

[Mariner]

Mariner,

You're right that I'm no expert on US Navy submarines. I'm only commenting on what I know as scuba diver. And as a scuba diver, I'm plenty aware of the issues associated with buoyancy/density of air vs depth in water. Water pressure increases the density of air, were it not so, decompression would be unnecessary, and the bends wouldn't be a problem for anyone.

But back to the actual point in this thread, you're missing a crucial detail. I do not mean to infer that the moon pool would be permanently open, only when they need to open it (presumably when it was calm). The scripture was explicit that they be plugged up if/when the waves come crashing onto it. After all, if the waves are starting to crash onto the boat, that's a good cue to seal up the holes. From there, the 30ft waves that momentarily submerse them are not a problem. It'd be a problem if they stayed that deep, but the boat instead would come rushing back to the surface.

In 30 - 35 foot seas, the wave periodicity (crest to crest) is on the order of 15 -20 seconds. If these are breaking waves (which many, if not most would be) there would not be a lot of time to recover from being buried in the depths of the sea before being buried in the depths of the seas yet again. In other words, in mountain waves and vicious winds that continuously blew toward the promised land, the Jaredites would have spent a lot of time under water.

In terms of "rushing back to the surface" after being buried in the depths of the sea, the barges described in the Book of Ether weren't exactly corks. Assuming that they were the length of a tree (e.g, about 50 feet long) and carrying livestock and provisions for a 344 day journey, they would have displaced 20-30 tons, or more.

[cdowis]

It is unlikely that they carried a year's supply of food for themselves and livestock.

As someone mentioned above, they probably stopped and re-provisioned themselves, do maintenance and perhaps to replace livestock. Assuming such stops, the weight would be considerably less.

Edited February 29, 2012 by cdowis

[LeSellers]

I'm just trying to see what the point of the bottom hole is at all if they were only unstopped at shore to drain the bilges... Wouldn't not having them at all make the boats far more watertight, and using a bucket & cloth to mop up any water that did make it inside make more sense (since you wouldn't have to wait until you go ashore to do that)?

The two are not mutually exclusive. I'm sure the women got fed up with the smell of the animal waste putrefying in the bottom of the barges and did just that.

However, it's nearly impossible to get it all out with a bucket and rag, not to mention much more work. The semi-/dry dock approach is far more efficient and effective.

Further, with the plug completely sealed, using hot tar, the issue of water-tightness is moot: it was. A conical hole (narrow end uppermost) would benefit from the pressure of the water itself to keep the plug in place, and the deeper any submersion, the more tightly the plug would be forced into the hole.

Lehi

[Mariner]

Yawn, I see, Dr W is that you?

Your expressed boredom with critical facts related to the discussion is somewhat surprising, or maybe not. Perhaps you are not one to let facts get in the way of a good faith promoting story.

[Mariner]

The two are not mutually exclusive. I'm sure the women got fed up with the smell of the animal waste putrefying in the bottom of the barges and did just that. However, it's nearly impossible to get it all out with a bucket and rag, not to mention much more work. The semi-/dry dock approach is far more efficient and effective. Further, with the plug completely sealed, using hot tar, the issue of water-tightness is moot: it was. A conical hole (narrow end uppermost) would benefit from the pressure of the water itself to keep the plug in place, and the deeper any submersion, the more tightly the plug would be forced into the hole. Lehi

LeSellers,

Perhaps you could explain how the crews of just a few people, sealed inside the hulls with no power and therefore no steering, facing the heavy seas generated by the fierce winds that never ceased to blow towards the promised land, could safely beach, re-fit and re-launch a 50 foot barge weighing 20 - 30 tons or more.

If you are assuming an Atlantic crossing leaving from Europe, where, exactly, would they have stopped along the way?

Edited February 29, 2012 by Mariner

[mfbukowski]

Further, we tend to lose sight of the fact that Ether, unlike the rest of the Book of Mormon, is a translation (by Joseph) of an abridgment (by Moroni) of a translation (also by Moroni) of an abridgment (by Ether) of a record by two millennia of prophets. It hardly seems reasonable for people to base any case on the lack of detail evident in Moroni's (and hence, Joseph's) work.

I put this in the category of Jonah and the whale and the world wide flood. I suppose something like this might have happened, but it really doesn't matter if it did or not.

What is important is that they trusted totally in the Lord, and he provided, and allowed them to make a long and perilous journey. I see no need to take it all too literally.

[LeSellers]

LeSellers,

My name is Lehi. I invite you to use it.

Perhaps you could explain how the crews of just a few people, sealed inside the hulls with no power and therefore no steering, facing the heavy seas generated by the fierce winds that never ceased to blow towards the promised land, could safely beach, re-fit and re-launch a 50 foot barge weighing 20 - 30 tons or more.

You have no textual basis for claiming there was no steering. The text (Eth 2:!9) explicitly mentioned steering, as we have seen in this topic. If steering requires power, then they must have had power, at least part of the time.

You have no textual basis for claiming the barges weighed 20 tons, much less 30. Your interpretation may be accurate, but I submit it is not. I know of a lot of tree much shorter than 50'.

Moreover, if the Egyptians could raise stone blocks weighing even more to heights far in excess of any beach, getting a boat out of the water would be no problem. Further, they did not need to get it completely out of the water. A few tree laid next to the barge and pushed under it at high tide would provide enough clearance to remove the lower plug and clean the bilge. Re-provisioning is a task even small children could help with.

You have no textual basis for claiming the winds blew continuously, The text says they did not blow in any other direction.

8 And it came to pass that the wind did never cease to blow towards the promised land while they were upon the waters; and thus they were driven forth before the wind.

I interpret the highlighted passage as saying that, while they were actually on the waters, the wind always drove them towards the promised land, not that the winds were relentless, and blew constnatly. Your interpretation, comoing from your mindset, will probably differ. But that does not make my understanding wrong.

If you are assuming an Atlantic crossing leaving from Europe, where, exactly. would they have stopped along the way?

There's the whole western coast of Africa, the entire east coast of South America, the Canaries, the Caribbean islands, and much of the Gulf of Mexico, if they went south from, say, Iberia. If they started in Norway, we have Britain, the Atlantic coast of Europe, possibly the Shetlands, Iceland and Greenland (which once grew grapes, we might note), Newfoundland, the eastern seaboard of modern USmerica, including Florida, and the Gulf, as before.

It is possible that they went the long way 'round, south of Africa, through the Indian Ocean, past Australia, or maybe up to Korea and on to California, Chile, and Argentina. I don't know. I only interpret what I read on the basis that I know the account is true, however incomplete it may be.

Lehi

Edited February 29, 2012 by LeSellers

[mfbukowski]

guitarist,

You should really go back and read a bit more before lecturing other folks on physics related to the design and functional attributes of seagoing vessels.

You apparently didn't know that the pressure inside the crew area of a nuclear submarine is maintained at very near normal atmospheric pressure of approximately 14.7 psi ( 1 atm). That is why the design of these vessels features (very expensive) pressure hulls.

The sea state in storm force winds, such as encountered by the Jaredites according to the Book of Ether, can easily generate waves that exceed 30 feet in height. The pressure at a water depth of 30 feet is approximately two atmospheres.

If the Jaredite barges were buried in the depths of the sea, again as described in the Book of Ether, then their hulls would be subjected to a water pressure of approximately 30 psi or 2 atm, assuming that they had 30 foot waves breaking over the barges.

Do you really think that no "real quantity" of water would enter the interior of these barges through a hole in the bottom of the hull while they were covered by 30 feet of water?

What do you mean by no real quantity?

Here is an equation you could use to work out a reasonable answer the question:

P V =n r T

where,

P is pressure

V is volume

n is the number of moles of air

r is the universal gas constant, and

T is temperature

At equilibrium at a depth of 30 feet, the pressure in the crew compartment would need to be about 30 psi to prevent the further entry of water through the hole in the hull. If the pressure in the crew compartment was 14.7 psi on the surface, how much of the air volume in side the barges do you think would be lost to incoming water at a depth of 30 feet before the pressure in the crew compartment increased to 30 psi (about 2 atm)?

Give me a break.

I already said I don't take it literally anyway- but this is just ridiculous. NO ONE thinks these things were designed to withstand the pressures of a nuclear submarine. They were allegedly surface vessels that occasionally went under some waves.

This just shows the depths of absurdity your scientism drives you to.

You can't even imagine the possibility that this is a somewhat garbled story that is taught for our edification to teach us to rely on the Lord, who can help us in any situation.

You are about the most literal, fundamentalist, person I have ever spoken to here. You would fault Shakespeare for saying that Juliet could not possibly be the "sun" because she wasn't heavy enough, and provide the math to prove it.

[Gervin]

You have no textual basis for claiming ...

There's no textual basis for claiming they stopped ("They stopped at various islands and such along their course").

[LeSellers]

There's no textual basis for claiming they stopped ("They stopped at various islands and such along their course").

I've never claimed there was.

However, I can make a decent case that they must have. My starting point is that, because I know the Book of Mormon to be true, what we read in it is true, and logical deductions made without changing the text, may be correct. It's when people distort the text or read into it things that can only be supported when rejecting the truth of the Book of Mormon that I reject them out of hand.

You are free to do the same with my assumptions, but do not tell me that your interpretations are the only ones possible.

Lehi

[mfbukowski]

Mariner

Is light a wave or a particle? Every word we say is a metaphor- even in science. It's all poetry. If you don't understand philosophy maybe you will understand this:

Scientific American, July 2011

Bad Boy of Physics

LEONARD SUSSKIND

vocation | avocation

Theoretical physicist, known especially for pioneering string theory, black hole physics and the multiverse

where

Stanford University

research focus

What is the deep nature

of physical reality?

big picture

We may never be able to grasp that reality

The universe and its ingredients may be impossible to describe unambiguously.

Leonard Susskind rebelled as a teen and never

stopped. Today he insists that reality may forever

be beyond reach of our understanding

Interview by Peter Byrne Stanford university physicist leonard susskind revels in discovering ideas

that transform the status quo in physics. Forty years ago he co-founded

string theory, which was initially derided but eventually became the leading

candidate for a unified theory of nature. For years he disputed Stephen

Hawking’s conjecture that black holes do not merely swallow objects but

grind them up beyond recovery, in violation of quantum mechanics. Hawking

eventually conceded. And he helped to develop the modern conception

of parallel universes, based on what he dubbed the “landscape” of string theory. It spoiled

physicists’ dream to explain the universe as the unique outcome of basic principles.

Physicists seeking to understand the deepest levels of reality now work within a framework

largely of Susskind’s making. But a funny thing has happened along the way. Susskind

now wonders whether physicists can understand reality.

Susskind worries that reality might be

beyond our limited capacity to visualize it.

He is not the first to express such a concern.

In the 1920s and 1930s the founders of quantum

mechanics split into realist and antirealist

camps. Albert Einstein and other realists

held that the whole point of physics is

to come up with some mental picture, however

imperfect, of what objective reality is.

Antirealists such as Niels Bohr said those

mental images are fraught with peril; scientists

should confine themselves to making

and testing empirical predictions. Susskind

thinks the contradictions and paradoxes of

modern physics vindicate Bohr’s wariness.

http://www.peterbyrn...d0711Byrn3p.pdf

The Book of Mormon is not a text on fluid dynamics, nor is it intended to be.

Edited February 29, 2012 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Yawn, I see, Dr W is that you?

Dang.

Why didn't I see that??

They even have the same avocations if I recall correctly.

[mfbukowski]

Your expressed boredom with critical facts related to the discussion is somewhat surprising, or maybe not. Perhaps you are not one to let facts get in the way of a good faith promoting story.

A faith promoting story like "light is a wave"? Or that there are non-linguistic "facts" that express perfectly how the world "really is" without relying on metaphor?

[Matthew J. Tandy]

Here is a piece I wrote several years ago. I think it has applicability to this discussion:

-------------------------

Below is a rendering of the general shape and function of the Jaredite Barges and their accompanying holes. Included are easy to read descriptions of areas so as not to cause differences of interpretations of my wonderfully skilled and artistically dazzling MS Paint Masterpiece.

Following the picture will be a scriptural analysis.

***

Distance and Speed

In Ether 6:10 it says the Jaredites were upon the sea for 344 days. To begin with, we need to assert the likelihood that there were stops in between. An average speed for an ancient vessel without sails, relying on a low cross-section for wind and currents would likely be somewhere around one to two miles per hour. Some assert higher speeds, but I believe when averaging in any minor setbacks by storms, as also taking into account complete lack of a sail, this is a very good low-ball. I came to this conclusion by independent research of sail-less barges without oars. However, you can also read a good analysis here:

SHIELDS: "Furious Wind" and Jaredite Barges

Now, in reference to the article, I notice he uses the maximum amount of days, the minimum speed, and the largest possible distance. These are very helpful in establishing worst-case scenario success, which is achieved (No stops, largest distance, etc.). However, pulling up Google Earth, that snazzy little 3D satellite globe with infinite uses, I mapped out both possible routes originating in the heart of Mesopotamia.

The shortest route, being the Mediterranean, is approximately 7,500 miles (extending to the farther reaches on each side to make sure it's not a low figure). at 1.5 miles an hour, day and night, we achieve the journey in two-hundred and eight point three days (208.3). It's 312 days at 1/mph and 156.25 at 2/mph.

The longest route, coming from just south of the Gulf of Oman (which is not taking into account all of the previous traveling for a few years and crossing other waters) is a maximum of 14,600 miles. This however is contrary to the general directions and information given in the text. However, I include it here as a worst-case scenario so that all fields are covered. I believe in reality on that route it would be several thousand miles less. This is including navigating around large islands and landmasses that would block the path more than a mile or two. At this phenomenal distance, the journey would be accomplished in 405 days at 1.5/mph, 608 days at 1/mph, and 304 days at 2/mph.

This is assuming that the Lord is giving a steady wind and current, but nothing to write home about. An increase by as little as .5/mph greatly changes everything.

Using these assumptions, we can conclude that taking the generally accepted Atlantic route at a median speed is going to leave them with over one hundred extra days unaccounted for. By this mathematical difference, as also the need for replenishment of supplies, we can safely conclude that they made at least twenty 5 day stops. The journey is not only feasible, but very easily accomplished without the Lord attempting to do anything more than direct the travel, abstaining from increasing wind and current flow as spoken of in the scriptures. Using the long route would be much harder, but at a sustained 2/mph, it would still allow more than enough stops to comfortably cross the divide.

The Structure of the Barges

It has been asserted in the past, and even passed along in church, that the shape of the barges may have been like a football or an egg. To this I say, Nonsense!. To begin with, anything in that shape, considering dispersion of air pressure, would roll almost uncontrollably in the ocean current, even without a storm! God forbid that a family try and huddle on a single side and find the side now the bottom. Beyond that, the text says it is a barge, not a submersible or theme-park ride. Barges by most definitions are wide, with large surface areas on the bottom and generally a flat surface on top. Dictionary.com says "Barge: n : a flat bottom boat for carrying heavy loads (especially on canals)." Not all barges are flat-bottomed, but in comparison to a clipper, it is very shallow.

The "peaked" part so the boat from the very beginning has always implied it has the traditional peaked ends familiar to most small ancient craft. The solid perpendicular connectors allow better stability and they can also be used to facilitate fishing, connecting to other boats, and increasing structural integrity by applying pressure in ways similar to an arch.

Ether 2:17

“And they were built after a manner that they were exceedingly tight, even that they would hold water like unto a dish; and the bottom thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the sides thereof were tight like unto a dish; and the ends thereof were peaked; and the top thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the length thereof was the length of a tree; and the door thereof, when it was shut, was tight like unto a dish.”

According to this, the sides and the bottom resulted in peaks, not the surface of the top.

"...tight like unto a dish;" does not mean shaped as a dish or bowl is shaped. It means "...even that they would hold water like unto a dish". There were many planks used, but the way they were connected is in such a way that in layman's terms they are seaworthy.

The Hatches

Ether 2:20

“And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood.”

To begin, let's consider the top hatch. It would have been the largest of the two. Why? To begin with, it's position at the top of a flat deck would have made it the most convenient to load from. Also, during calm days the Jaredites would not have been cowering in the stuffy belly of the barge... they would have been on top with the hatch open. They would have been able to stretch their legs, enjoy the vastness of the sea and it's creatures, allow the animals exercise, and facilitate both daily bodily functions as well as disposing of any waste built up during storms. Essentially, all the normal things people do on good sailing days. This makes the trip much more pleasant.

Now a storm comes. The Jaredites can see it in the distance... now it's getting nearer, stronger... now the waves are starting to make it unsafe to stay on top. They flee to inside the ship, sealing the main hatch above them. Again, logic dictates that like almost every other seafaring journey craft throughout time, there were straps used for emergencies to tie goods, people, and animals to the sides and other sound structures. It's so common that almost every culture voyaging far into the ocean has used them. It only takes one bad storm for people to become innovative and see a need. Now, it's not exactly comfortable like this. The storm may last a few hours or a few days. Some animals may die. Some goods may perish. Some passengers may not survive. We don't know, but it certainly would not have been a good time. However, their situation would be no different than all the other people throughout millennia forced to ride out storms on the open sea.

So here comes the storm. This one is so violent it and the waves so large that Mahonri's vessel is buried beneath the sea for a minute or two. As long as the ship stays in tact, we can be assured that a light vessel such as this will not be submersed completely for more than a minute or two at most. But in that time, the swirling tumultuous current flips them upside down. Everybody should be strapped in, so injuries and damage should be minimal. Now, with only a top hatch, they have a problem... it's on the bottom and if unsealed the pressure will either prevent it from opening if it swings outward or will drown them all if it swings inward. They are stuck, left to hope that the lord will turn them over. Or are they? See, the Lord in his infinite wisdom told them to make another hole, this time on the bottom. It is a folly to think it is the same size and construction as the entry hatch. This one would be smaller, enough to let one or two people through at once if needed. When the storm clears, or it is at least a little calmer, they can get all the able people out and using various means including counter-balance, they can tip it upright with both hatches closed. Now they are ready to continue onward, thanks to nothing very miraculous, but good common sense dictated by the Lord.

But what about the part that reads "And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood."? Simply, you would have to have the intellect of a newborn babe and the body of an adult to open the hatch pointing downward and think you are going to get some fresh air. It's illogical. The only time they are sealed in the ship is during a storm. The crafts will not have much of an air supply, only enough to last a few hours. This means that no matter how bad the storm, they are going to have to periodically open the hatch currently on top for at least a minute and bring in fresh air. If a wave is crashing down on them at that moment and "a flood" comes in upon them, they will do as the Lord explains and plug it for a little bit more.

Thus is solved the issue of the purpose of two holes, the length of the trip, the viability of stops, the cramped quarters, and many other quandaries discussed here, all by building a fairly basic small barge. No heavy science, unexplainable acts of God, no advanced craftsmanship other than ensuring it's seaworthy. And all in line with the scriptures.

A few last notes.

They had practice perfecting these before crossing the oceans.

Ether 2:16

“And the Lord said: Go to work and build, after the manner of barges which ye have hitherto built. And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did go to work, and also his brethren, and built barges after the manner which they had built, according to the instructions of the Lord. And they were small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water.”

Referencing to Ether 2:6: “And it came to pass that they did travel in the wilderness, and did build barges, in which they did cross many waters, being directed continually by the hand of the Lord.”

Deseret, or The Honey Bee

In the first part of the journey when they traveled to the Valley of Nimrod, they carried with them honey bees.

Ether 2:1-3

“AND it came to pass that Jared and his brother, and their families, and also the friends of Jared and his brother and their families, went down into the valley which was northward, (and the name of the valley was Nimrod, being called after the mighty hunter) with their flocks which they had gathered together, male and female, of every kind.

2 And they did also lay snares and catch fowls of the air; and they did also prepare a vessel, in which they did carry with them the fish of the waters.

3 And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees,...”

They carried a lot with them. Then they get ready to cross the ocean. This time, they carry different supplies:

Ether 6:4

“And it came to pass that when they had prepared all manner of food, that thereby they might subsist upon the water, and also food for their flocks and herds, and whatsoever beast or animal or fowl that they should carry with them—and it came to pass that when they had done all these things they got aboard of their vessels or barges, and set forth into the sea, commending themselves unto the Lord their God.”

No mention of deseret, bees, swarms, or honey bees. It is significant that for nowhere else in the entirety of the Book of Mormon are either bees or honey mentioned excepting by Nephi, who says it was found in Bountiful and also in reference to prophecies (see 1 Nephi 17:5, 18:6, 2 Nephi 17:5, 17:22, and 26:25). It is safe to assume that swarms of bees were not the best of companions in closed quarters and so never made the journey with either the Jaredites or the Nephites.

Therefore, the bees are a non-issue.

The Lit Stones, The Jaredites, and Noah (retrieved from FARMS)

"The oldest accounts of the ark of Noah, the Sumerian ones, describe it as a 'magur boat,' peaked at the ends, completely covered but for a door, without sails, and completely covered by the waters from time to time, as men and animals rode safe within." (Nibley, Prophetic Book of Mormon, 243)

"The remarkable thing about Jared's boats was their illumination. . . . The Rabbis tell of a mysterious Zohar that illuminated the ark, but for further instruction we must go to much older sources: the Pyrophilus is traced back to the Jalakanta stone of India, which shines in the dark and enables its owner to pass unharmed beneath the waters; this in turn has been traced back through classical and Oriental sources to the Gilgamesh Epic, where Alexander's wonderful Pyrophilus stone turns up as the Plant of Life in the possession of the Babylonian Noah." (Nibley, Prophetic Book of Mormon, 243-44)

In such accounts we find greater veracity for the validity of the Book of Ether and the Book of Mormon in general as an ancient and accurate text. Since these stories were not available to Joseph in his time, it adds support to his prophetic calling. These things were not new to the Lord, nor even new to the Jaredites who were not far removed from Noah in time. The stones, the basic construction of the Ark and the Barges, all are similar, but new to Joseph, the people of his time, and many people in this message-board and in the world today.

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Enjoy

[Gervin]

I've never claimed there was.

However, I can make a decent case that they must have. My starting point is that, because I know the Book of Mormon to be true, what we read in it is true, and logical deductions made without changing the text, may be correct. It's when people distort the text or read into it things that can only be supported when rejecting the truth of the Book of Mormon that I reject them out of hand.

You are free to do the same with my assumptions, but do not tell me that your interpretations are the only ones possible.

Lehi

I understand that you have a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true. Some, even on this thread, appear to have a similar testimony yet concede that the story may be fiction. One must certainly create a rich backstory to begin to move the story from the ridiculous to the sublime … though I’ve yet to see anything approaching sublimity; there’s a bit too much to overcome. Island respites, elaborate steering mechanisms, ingenuous waste disposal systems, etc., still don’t do enough to smooth out the narrative. But, to each his own.