Mahonri's Watercraft

[Mariner]

You have no textual basis for claiming there was no steering. The text (Eth 2:19) explicitly mentioned steering, as we have seen in this topic. If steering requires power, then they must have had power, at least part of the time.

Lehi,

A marine vessel that has no means of moving with respect to the water around it cannot be steered. Unless the Jaredite barges had some means of propulsion such as sails, oars, of an engine with a prop, they could not be steered.

Given this display of lack of knowledge or understanding regarding ocean voyaging, along with the mention of windows, air holes in the top and bottom of the hull that would be "stoppered", fully watertight vessels that were light on the water, yet built to carry humans, livestock and their provisions for 344 days, the stories about constant fierce winds and tempests and mountainous waves and being buried in the depths of the sea, no means of propulsion, no fire on board, and magic glowing rocks, the best explanation for the Book of Ether, by far, is that it was a (poor) attempt of Joseph Smith or his associates to exceed, in scope and impact, the fictional account of Noah in the OT.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Mariner

[Matthew J. Tandy]

Island respites, elaborate steering mechanisms, ingenuous waste disposal systems, etc., still don’t do enough to smooth out the narrative

1) I know you were addressing Lehi's thoughts of waste disposal, steering mechanisms, etc. I do think it's too much personally. But, if God is all knowing, it's not that far stretched to say he could teach them something as basic as a moon pool. Is the concept a little advanced? Possibly. But the construction is basic. Again, I don't think that's what was used, but it's not an invalid proposal. Of course, if you don't believe in God, then it becomes more difficult. But then... the Book of Mormon is false without God, so debating a moon pool seems silly in that case. If their is a God, and he is involved with his people, then it's not even slightly absurd.

2) Island respites seem inherent in the journey itself, with length of time, very very low travel speeds (half the speed of anaverage person walking at average speed), resources needed for 344 days, etc. It would be more absurd to read the text, knowing the numbers, and say they wouldn't have stopped.

the best explanation for the Book of Ether, by far, is that it was a (poor) attempt of Joseph Smith or his associates to exceed, in scope and impact, the fictional account of Noah in the OT

3) Mariner, considering that only one very small aspect centers on the oceanic voyage, that is a rather broad and sweeping statement for an entire book (Ether). The polynesians have several stories about 6 canoes that came and brought them to their land. There are multiple variations (including number), time frames, and epic stories connected to these ancestors. For all we know though it was a couple people lost at sea in two canoes. The pertinent data point is that they got there by boat, and that much is true. The rest may be true too, but if it isn't, it doesn't change that they got there. Same thing with the voyage in Ether. I personally believe it is true, in terms of the brother of Jared's relationship to God, being instructed to leave, etc. I am less concerned about the details of a journey Ether wrote down a thousand+ years later.

[Mariner]

3) Mariner, considering that only one very small aspect centers on the oceanic voyage, that is a rather broad and sweeping statement for an entire book (Ether). The polynesians have several stories about 6 canoes that came and brought them to their land. There are multiple variations (including number), time frames, and epic stories connected to these ancestors. For all we know though it was a couple people lost at sea in two canoes. The pertinent data point is that they got there by boat, and that much is true. The rest may be true too, but if it isn't, it doesn't change that they got there. Same thing with the voyage in Ether. I personally believe it is true, in terms of the brother of Jared's relationship to God, being instructed to leave, etc. I am less concerned about the details of a journey Ether wrote down a thousand+ years later.

You are quite correct. I should have referred specifically to the sea saga in the Book of Ether. The rest of the Book of Ether has its own credibility and historicity issues.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Mariner

[Matthew J. Tandy]

You are quite correct. I should have referred specifically to the sea saga in the Book of Ether. The rest of the Book of Ether has its own credibility and historicity issues.

Mariner, I'll take the acknowledged clarification. It works for me.:-) Personally, I think Ether is one of the easier books to put in the "possible" category versus the rest of the Book of Mormon (which, to be clear, I hold all of it to be a true history with all of the regular trappings of histories written by the real or perceived victor). But that's a topic for another thread!

[mfbukowski]

I understand that you have a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true. Some, even on this thread, appear to have a similar testimony yet concede that the story may be fiction. One must certainly create a rich backstory to begin to move the story from the ridiculous to the sublime … though I’ve yet to see anything approaching sublimity; there’s a bit too much to overcome. Island respites, elaborate steering mechanisms, ingenuous waste disposal systems, etc., still don’t do enough to smooth out the narrative. But, to each his own.

I hope you did not include me in your mental categorization of those who believe the story is "fiction". It might have happened that way or some other way, I don't know and it doesn't matter to me if it did or didn't.

What is important to me is the spiritual lessons we can obtain from the story.

[rodheadlee]

Richard Van Pham drifted for 4 months and covered 2500 miles from Long Beach to Costa Rica in an unplanned voyage. I'm pretty sure with some planning and help from the Lord it wouldn't be all that difficult to use the natural currents and winds to float a barge across the ocean.

I tend to believe the theory that Mahonri and his barges left from Asia and followed the currents across the North Pacific and down the California current to Central America/Mexico. One reason is because of the nature of the Jaredite/Olmec wars being similar to the Mongol wars. I'm sorry I don't have links for the articles I read on this theory.

For some reason when I read the story the first time I thought they traveled to West Africa and launched. Does the text prohibit this? I'm pretty sure if you toss a message in a bottle off the coast of Morocco it'll wind up in the Carribean Sea on its way to the east coast of Central America/ Mexico around Cancun or Belize.

Edited March 1, 2012 by rodheadlee

[guitarist]

I also keep hearing these theories of their voyage traveling the Atlantic, but the Tower of Babel was during the years of Nimrod, which appears to be several generations before Peleg, which is when the earth was supposed to be divided. If that's indeed the case, there wouldn't be an Atlantic to speak of. And the Pacific would be about twice as big as it is now. This would also likely change (perhaps drastically) the currents from what they are today. Those would lend some credence to a 344 day journey and not having to be going a slow 1-point-something mph to get there in the allotted time.

[Mariner]

I also keep hearing these theories of their voyage traveling the Atlantic, but the Tower of Babel was during the years of Nimrod, which appears to be several generations before Peleg, which is when the earth was supposed to be divided. If that's indeed the case, there wouldn't be an Atlantic to speak of. And the Pacific would be about twice as big as it is now. This would also likely change (perhaps drastically) the currents from what they are today. Those would lend some credence to a 344 day journey and not having to be going a slow 1-point-something mph to get there in the allotted time.

I want to say this to you in the kindest way possible. Anyone who really believes stories of continental rifting in the generations of Peleg, or even thinks that the Atlantic Basin was formed less than about 30 million years ago, has much larger problems in terms of distinguishing reality from fantasy than those represented by the unlikely sea saga of the Book of Ether.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Mariner

[guitarist]

I want to say this to you in the kindest way possible - but if you really think that the Atlantic Basin was formed less than about 30 million years ago, then you have much larger problems with reality than the unlikely sea saga of the Book of Ether.

I'm merely going by what's in the bible/boe in this discussion. And in this discussion, the bible/boe itself are not on trial, but rather the particulars of the Jaredite journey to the americas. You want to start up a topic on the scientific validity of the bible/boe/bom, you can start up a new thread on it.

[Mariner]

I'm merely going by what's in the bible/boe in this discussion. And in this discussion, the bible/boe itself are not on trial, but rather the particulars of the Jaredite journey to the americas. You want to start up a topic on the scientific validity of the bible/boe/bom, you can start up a new thread on it.

So, by your logic then, everything in the Book of Ether could make sense after all because the Atlantic Ocean simply may not have existed in 2500 BC.

You realize, do you not, that by making these kinds of statements, you are providing a tacit acknowledgement that the whole Book of Ether is fiction.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Mariner

[LeSellers]

A marine vessel that has no means of moving with respect to the water around it cannot be steered. Unless the Jaredite barges had some means of propulsion such as sails, oars, of an engine with a prop, they could not be steered.

You're making an assumption about the barges that the Book of Ether does not state: that they were not powered, at least part of the time.

While the text does not say they were, it does not say they were not. And, as we have repeatedly pointed out, the Jaredites did steer them, see Ether 2:19.

BTW, the CSS Hunley did not have an engine, but it did have a screw.

Given this display of lack of knowledge or understanding regarding ocean voyaging, ....

Only in evidence in your mind.

... along with the mention of windows,

The window is as ancient an invention as the wall. A window is nothing more than an opening in a wall other than a door. The addition of glass is relatively recent, but the window itself, with or without shutters, is very much in evidence at the appropriate time.

... air holes in the top and bottom of the hull that would be "stoppered",

It's obvious that any hole on the bottom of a watercraft is not an "air hole".

fully watertight vessels that were light on the water, yet built to carry humans, livestock and their provisions for 344 days,

There is no reason to assume the vessels were provisioned for 344 days. It is very possible, and even likely, that they stopped for re-provisioning along the way.

You are arguing from silence, but neglecting to note that the account of Mahonri's little fleet was far from an exhaustive log: Moroni included the salient spiritual elements, but touched on the physical account only insofar as needed to carry the narrative.

... the stories about constant fierce winds and tempests and mountainous waves and being buried in the depths of the sea, ...

"Constant fierce winds" are in the eye of the beholder, as are mountainous waves (what I'd consider mountainous would barely raise the eyebrows of a seasoned sailor. The Jaredites were not experienced mariners. I suspect their vantage point would differ somewhat from yours.

... no means of propulsion, ...

Where do we read there was no means of propulsion? Not in Ether, to be sure.

... no fire on board, and magic glowing rocks ...

"Glowing Rocks" need not be "magical". Thus we see yet another attempt to prejudice the reader.

... the best explanation for the Book of Ether, by far, is that it was a (poor) attempt of Joseph Smith or his associates to exceed, in scope and impact, the fictional account of Noah in the OT.

When you bias the evidence, poison the well, and reject alternative explanations, indeed, your position is the only one left. But that hardly makes it valid.

Lehi

Edited March 1, 2012 by LeSellers

[Gervin]

The Jaredites were not experienced mariners.

Yet they managed to independently steer 8 barges filled with people and animals for about a year through storms and unfamilar currents, taking provisions on various unchartered islands, and eventually landing together in the Promised Land? When you bias the narrative and reject common sense explanations, indeed, your position is the only one left. But that hardly makes it valid.

[LeSellers]

Yet they managed to independently steer 8 barges filled with people and animals for about a year through storms and unfamilar currents, taking provisions on various unchartered islands, and eventually landing together in the Promised Land?

Why not?

Noah did a similar thing, and by the same means: he had the spirit of God to to direct him, just as the prophet Mahonri Moriancumer did.

If you reject divine intervention and guidance, the whole religion thing is pretty well a non-starter. That may be satisfying for some folks, but it would leave a vacuum in the reality of the universe as I see things.

Lehi

[guitarist]

So, by your logic then, everything in the Book of Ether could make sense after all because the Atlantic Ocean simply may not have existed in 2500 BC.

You realize, do you not, that by making these kinds of statements, you are providing a tacit acknowledgement that the whole Book of Ether is fiction.

I make no such acknowledgement. Many take the verse in Genesis about the earth being divided in the days of Peleg literally, and my line of questioning was within that realm. That does not mean that I necessarily say that the earth actually was divided in those times, it could have had a different meaning; like the division of the people rather than the earth itself, for example. My interpretations/theories/brainstorms do nothing to invalidate the book itself. I was simply curious to see if anyone had considered this as a possibility in their own theorizations of the topic at hand.

[Mariner]

I make no such acknowledgement. Many take the verse in Genesis about the earth being divided in the days of Peleg literally, and my line of questioning was within that realm. That does not mean that I necessarily say that the earth actually was divided in those times, it could have had a different meaning; like the division of the people rather than the earth itself, for example. My interpretations/theories/brainstorms do nothing to invalidate the book itself. I was simply curious to see if anyone had considered this as a possibility in their own theorizations of the topic at hand.

Not to belabor the point, but what kind of credibility could any theory that assumed that the Atlantic Basin had not been formed by 2500 BC possibly have?

If these fantasy-based theories are considered as plausible by those who believe in the historicity of the Book of Ether, what does that say about such belief?

[Calm]

I'm merely going by what's in the bible/boe in this discussion. And in this discussion, the bible/boe itself are not on trial, but rather the particulars of the Jaredite journey to the americas. You want to start up a topic on the scientific validity of the bible/boe/bom, you can start up a new thread on it.

The Jews interpreted the Peleg division as a political/national one, not geological. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if no one came up with that explanation until after the idea of continental drift came to be.

Edited March 1, 2012 by calmoriah

[tana]

Not to belabor the point, but what kind of credibility could any theory that assumed that the Atlantic Basin had not been formed by 2500 BC possibly have?

If these fantasy-based theories are considered as plausible by those who believe in the historicity of the Book of Ether, what does that say about such belief?

If one is referring to the super continent of "Pangaea".... Then it would seem that there is just one continent and one ocean. Why would there be any need to *sail* to anywhere when one could walk?

If Pangaea broke up and the continental plates moved to where they are after the Jaradites had arrived, and the plates moved in an extreme accelerated fashion, it would seem the upheaval of mountains, the tsunamis and just plain catastrophe would be hard for anything to live through

On another point, waves don't necessarily carry vessels with in an extended manner. Waves break at shore as their momentum is forced to a breaking point by reaching shallow waters. But for the most part water molecules stay in one place in the open ocean...simply moving up and down. Think of a wave at a football stadium....or the appearance of a wave by a fan standing up at the right time. This will not carry an object with it.

[cdowis]

Biblical chronology is subject to investigation, and we simply do not have very much by way of facts, outside the written record. I would not judge the book of Ether by Bible chronology.

[altersteve]

I want to say this to you in the kindest way possible. Anyone who really believes stories of continental rifting in the generations of Peleg, or even thinks that the Atlantic Basin was formed less than about 30 million years ago, has much larger problems in terms of distinguishing reality from fantasy than those represented by the unlikely sea saga of the Book of Ether.

In other words, people who take the Bible literally are less intelligent than those with a more liberal perspective. Got it.

[LeSellers]

In other words, people who take the Bible literally are less intelligent than those with a more liberal perspective.

28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish. 29 But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

There's a lot of that going around.

Lehi

[mfbukowski]

Richard Van Pham drifted for 4 months and covered 2500 miles from Long Beach to Costa Rica in an unplanned voyage. I'm pretty sure with some planning and help from the Lord it wouldn't be all that difficult to use the natural currents and winds to float a barge across the ocean.

I tend to believe the theory that Mahonri and his barges left from Asia and followed the currents across the North Pacific and down the California current to Central America/Mexico. One reason is because of the nature of the Jaredite/Olmec wars being similar to the Mongol wars. I'm sorry I don't have links for the articles I read on this theory.

For some reason when I read the story the first time I thought they traveled to West Africa and launched. Does the text prohibit this? I'm pretty sure if you toss a message in a bottle off the coast of Morocco it'll wind up in the Carribean Sea on its way to the east coast of Central America/ Mexico around Cancun or Belize.

And you are clearly the only one here qualified to even comment. Glad to see you back- where are you going on your next voyage?

[mfbukowski]

29 But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

I would argue that it is precisely "being learned" which makes it possible to hearken to the counsels of God and not be confused by the silliness which critics like Mariner present.

Confusion is from Satan who if anything is certainly "learned"- and we must be as well in order to beat him at his own game.

[tana]

What I question is the need for these semi-submersible type vessels. Why not build conventional sailing craft similar to Lehi and co?

From what I can tell there doesn't seem to be any scientific record of decades, or even years long exceedingly angry weather patterns c. 3000-2000 B.C. that would necessitate such craft.

But there is a record of Phoenician, Egyptian and Austronesian peoples making passages in *open* vessels c. this time period.

[Mariner]

Richard Van Pham drifted for 4 months and covered 2500 miles from Long Beach to Costa Rica in an unplanned voyage. I'm pretty sure with some planning and help from the Lord it wouldn't be all that difficult to use the natural currents and winds to float a barge across the ocean.

I tend to believe the theory that Mahonri and his barges left from Asia and followed the currents across the North Pacific and down the California current to Central America/Mexico. One reason is because of the nature of the Jaredite/Olmec wars being similar to the Mongol wars. I'm sorry I don't have links for the articles I read on this theory.

For some reason when I read the story the first time I thought they traveled to West Africa and launched. Does the text prohibit this? I'm pretty sure if you toss a message in a bottle off the coast of Morocco it'll wind up in the Carribean Sea on its way to the east coast of Central America/ Mexico around Cancun or Belize.

Rod,

I know that you are a blue water sailor. My issue with the Pacific passage is that the Kurosho to North Pacific Drift to California current route should not have required 344 days.

My issue with a launch from west Africa is again, that 344 days is a long time and it is more likely that they would have ended up in the north moving Gulf stream than in the Caribbean. Had they entered the Gulfs stream, as you know, they would and remained several miles offshore along the North American east coast and eventually returned to Europe.

Neither of your routes requires 344 days and neither requires fierce winds since, as you correctly imply, it is drift and set of the currents that are the determining factor here.

Also, if the barges were constructed as described in the Book of Ether, there would be are a number of other problems with them on a 344 journey.

[zerinus]

"And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? (Ether 2:19.)

I can think of two possible explanations for this verse. One explanation is that it is a rhetorical statement and does not mean that they would literally steer the barges. The description given in the book of Ether of their method of traversing the ocean seems to exclude any kind of "steering". You can only steer a vessel if it is under some kind of propulsion, such as sail, or oars, or engine. If it is being tossed about on the waves, then it cannot be steered.

Assuming, however, that the vessels were steerable, and had some kind of steering mechanism such as a rudder and steering wheel, it did not necessarily need to make visual contact with the outside to do the navigating. Submarines are in total darkness when fully submerged, and have no visual contact with the outside, but can still navigate. They use various different techniques for navigating when submerged. See here, here, and here. Assuming that the vessels were steerable, and navigation was required, it could be provided by the Lord using the same type of device as the "compass" that the Lord provided for the Nephites (1 Nephi 18:12, 21). They could steer by the direction provided by the compass, without needing to make visual contact with the outside.

Edited March 1, 2012 by zerinus