Mahonri's Watercraft

[cdowis]

zerinus,

In several of your posts on this thread, you have made clear your belief that there is nothing that can be imagined by humans that is outside the realm of possibility for God. You call this religion. I call it magic. And I don't believe in magic.

Magic has no rules, no structure, no mathematical underpinning and is not falsifiable. It cannot be reasonably studied and hence there is nothing to be gained from belief in magic, except for some false sense of emotional well being.

You will find that the LDS agree with you. Magic is not part of our belief system. However, we believe that many of the rules of the universe are still unknown to us. There are scientists who are willing to explore the unconventional, the fringes of science --->

Is string theory is magic? The existence of multiple dimensions beyond our conventional four may be amathematical model, but do they exist in the real world where we can move from one to another without worm holes.

Can you admit there are things beyond your imagination and presently unknown to science.

Since belief in magic would severely damage my career and life and might even get me kicked out of the science club, I consider it as dangerous.

Obviously you are concerned about your career, so it is understandable that your default position is to deny the existence of a Deity, and to mock those in the scientific community for their belief. It is not cool to believe in God and to be a scientist.

It may damage your credibility in the scientific community, and even your career.

Edited March 3, 2012 by cdowis

[zerinus]

If you will read my post you will see that I only asked you to consider it a discharge of any obligation that I might have to respond to you. So it would appear that we have arrived at a mutual understanding (and have done so amicably, at that.).

That a good strategy for a cop-out. You won't get away from me though!

[zerinus]

The definition of molten is:

mol‧ten [usually before noun]

molten metal or rock has been made into a liquid by being heated to a very high temperature:

I agree that is the dictionary definition. That is not how it is used in the Book of Mormon though.

[mfbukowski]

Magic has no rules, no structure, no mathematical underpinning and is not falsifiable. It cannot be reasonably studied and hence there is nothing to be gained from belief in magic, except for some false sense of emotional well being.

Kind of like living in LA. We live in an ambiguous world.

[ERayR]

I agree that is the dictionary definition. That is not how it is used in the Book of Mormon though.

sigh

[Mariner]

That a good strategy for a cop-out. You won't get away from me though!

Curses.

Foiled again.

[zerinus]

sigh

Well you have got to judge the meaning of a word by its context, as well as by the dictionary definition. If the context implies something other than the dictionary definition, you have to take that into account. Don't you think so?

[altersteve]

Mariner, several people have asked you this question already, and you have consistently avoided it. But I would like your answer.

Do you believe that there are things about this universe that we do not currently understand?

[Mariner]

Mariner, several people have asked you this question already, and you have consistently avoided it. But I would like your answer.

Do you believe that there are things about this universe that we do not currently understand?

I certainly believe that there are is a great deal that we do not understand about the universe. I also believe that the universe operates according to natural laws. Some of those laws are well known to us and they provide an excellent description of how much of the universe works and helps us identify areas in which our knowledge is lacking. For example, it is our understanding of gravity that informs us about the existence of dark energy and dark matter.

A recognition that we don't know everything there is to know about the universe should not be taken to as a license to claim that anything imaginable could happen in this universe, or that a God who must operate by natural laws can somehow use his imagined advanced knowledge of natural laws to violate them. It should not be taken to mean that scientists cannot recognize when natural laws are violated.

What drives me around the bend when discussing this stuff with Mormon believers is that many of them, such as yourself, express a wholly unfounded believe that God can do anything he wants, while still being a God who is bound by natural law.

Please don't try to explain or excuse this irrational doublethink. I have come to accept it as a feature of the Mormon worldview. As has been discussed before, it helps provide an understanding of why Mormon scientists are seldom, if ever, found in the top echelons of their profession.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Mariner

[blackstrap]

I have seen animals trainers get the animals to do amazing things. The horse ,for example can be taught to respond to the slightest motion of the rider,whereas an observer sees nothing but the animals movements. If,as is taught in scripture,the elements obey the word of God ,in other words God has the ability to influence the very elements,I submit that it is no more "magic" than the marvelous influence of a trainer.

Most magicians utilize science and skill to accomplish the performance.

[zerinus]

While thinking about the 16 transparent stones of the brother of Jared, I decided to look up images of quartz crystals on Google. They are among the wonders of nature. Some of them can grow to become very large. Here are some fairly large ones for sale. Cutting and polishing them into crystal balls is a common practice. Large ones fetch a high price, especially if they are perfectly clear. Here is a huge but opaque crystal ball (click on the image to enlarge). And here is the largest clear crystal ball. It is over a foot in diameter. It would have to be rich witch to be fortune-telling with that one!

The most likely candidate for the 16 clear stones of the brother of Jared is that they were quartz crystals. And he would have cut them out of the mountain the way they are, and presented them to the Lord for the purpose intended. It doesn't make sense that he would have melted them down. Why on earth would he want to do that? And by what means? I believe that "molten out of the rock" simply means "cut out of the rock". It doesn't make any sense otherwise.

[blackstrap]

What natural law is violated when sight is restored to a blind man? We accept with little discussion the medical "miracles" that can be accomplished today but were impossible even 20 years ago.We deny the power of faith to do the same because it is magical.

Consider the lowly termite. In the US if one wants to destroy termites ,one fumigates the house and kills each individual termite.In Africa,the exterminators just locate the queen and kill her.All the individual termites then die. Which procedure is the "magical"one?Which one violates natural law?

[zerinus]

What drives me around the bend when discussing this stuff with Mormon believers is that many of them, such as yourself, express a wholly unfounded believe that God can do anything he wants, . . .

God certainly can do anything He wants:

Genesis 18:

14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord?

Jeremiah 32:

17 Ah Lord God! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:

Jeremiah 32:

27 Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Matthew 19:

26 . . . but with God all things are possible.

Abraham 3:

17 . . . and there is nothing that the Lord thy God shall take in his heart to do but what he will do it.

. . . while still being a God who is bound by natural law.

God is bound, but not by “natural law”. God is bound by His own law. He cannot lie for example. He cannot make promises which He does not intend to fulfil. He cannot be unjust. He cannot be unholy. But He is not bound by any “natural law”.

[blackstrap]

Zerinus,something is phishy here. If the stones were dug out of the mountain,that would have been easy to say.What language was used when Nephi went to the mountain for ore? The word "molten" connects to "melt" with heat.It seems reasonable that some smelting process was used to obtain the stones,otherwise the word molten was a bad translation.

[Mariner]

What natural law is violated when sight is restored to a blind man? We accept with little discussion the medical "miracles" that can be accomplished today but were impossible even 20 years ago.We deny the power of faith to do the same because it is magical.

Consider the lowly termite. In the US if one wants to destroy termites ,one fumigates the house and kills each individual termite.In Africa,the exterminators just locate the queen and kill her.All the individual termites then die. Which procedure is the "magical"one?Which one violates natural law?

No natural law is violated when modern medicine restores one's lost sight.

Neither one of your options for wiping out a termite colony was magical and neither one of them violated natural law.

Furthermore, your examples are absolutely irrelevant to the subject (any of the subjects) at hand, and I have no idea why you even bothered to post them on this thread.

[mfbukowski]

I certainly believe that there are is a great deal that we do not understand about the universe. I also believe that the universe operates according to natural laws. Some of those laws are well known to us and they provide an excellent description of how much of the universe works and helps us identify areas in which our knowledge is lacking. For example, it is our understanding of gravity that informs us about the existence of dark energy and dark matter.

A recognition that we don't know everything there is to know about the universe should not be taken to as a license to claim that anything imaginable could happen in this universe, or that a God who must operate by natural laws can somehow use his imagined advanced knowledge of natural laws to violate them. It should not be taken to mean that scientists cannot recognize when natural laws are violated.

What drives me around the bend when discussing this stuff with Mormon believers is that many of them, such as yourself, express a wholly unfounded believe that God can do anything he wants, while still being a God who is bound by natural law.

For what it's worth, I completely agree with this much of your quote.

Unfortunately you went a little haywire there at the end.

[blackstrap]

No natural law is violated when modern medicine restores one's lost sight.

Neither one of your options for wiping out a termite colony was magical and neither one of them violated natural law.

Furthermore, your examples are absolutely irrelevant to the subject (any of the subjects) at hand, and I have no idea why you even bothered to post them on this thread.

My point was that you refuse to give power to anything but nature.Fine> there are powers in nature that seem magical to an observer,even an educated one,but are not, once the mechanism is revealed. I personally think that faith is,for now,a mechanism that we know little about but apparently follows laws which,for all we know,are just as natural as gravity.I'm sorry you found my example obtuse.

[mfbukowski]

God is bound, but not by “natural law”. God is bound by His own law. He cannot lie for example. He cannot make promises which He does not intend to fulfil. He cannot be unjust. He cannot be unholy. But He is not bound by any “natural law”.

It is my belief that he voluntarily submits himself to the natural laws he has set up, much as say, we as a society voluntarily submit to traffic laws (hopefully!) This is called "self-determination".

[zerinus]

Zerinus,something is phishy here. If the stones were dug out of the mountain,that would have been easy to say.What language was used when Nephi went to the mountain for ore? The word "molten" connects to "melt" with heat.It seems reasonable that some smelting process was used to obtain the stones,otherwise the word molten was a bad translation.

I don't have an answer to that question, except that the word with that meaning does not fit into the context. You don't "melt" clear crystal out of a rock. You cut or carve it out. And I don't believe it is a bad translation either. It may very well be an archaic definition which is not found in most dictionaries. It would be interesting to see what definitions the great Oxford English Dictionary would give for it. Unfortunately I don't have access to that dictionary at the moment. In Job chapter 37 we have the following:

16 Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?

17 How thy garments are warm, when he quieteth the earth by the south wind?

18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?

Here he compares the sky with a "molten looking glass". Not sure what that is supposed to mean. In the Bible, the expression "molten image" occurs 25 times. I am guessing that many of these actually mean "carved" or "graven" images. That is my reading of that word in the Book of Ether. "Molten" out of the rock means carved or cut out of the rock.

Edited March 4, 2012 by zerinus

[zerinus]

It is my belief that he voluntarily submits himself to the natural laws he has set up, much as say, we as a society voluntarily submit to traffic laws (hopefully!) This is called "self-determination".

I believe that God is not bound by anything except by His own word, and by the principles of justice, righteousness, and truth.

[mfbukowski]

I believe that God is not bound by anything except by His own word, and by the principles of justice, righteousness, and truth.

I would agree with that. I just think that "his own word" would include promises made to himself, as perhaps you might make a decision never to violate a certain principle in your own life, not because God wants you to do it necessarily, but because you want it for yourself.

[blackstrap]

Images are carved it is true. They are also cast (lost wax etc.) into a mold using molten substances.Is the Angle Moroni Statue on the top of temple,a molten image in any way?

[zerinus]

Images are carved it is true. They are also cast (lost wax etc.) into a mold using molten substances.Is the Angle Moroni Statue on the top of temple,a molten image in any way?

I don't dispute that images can be cast. But they can also be carved or graven. And I am guessing that in some of those instances "molten image" means "carved" or "graven image"

Edited March 4, 2012 by zerinus

[Calm]

I don't have an answer to that question, except that the word with that meaning does not fit into the context. You don't "melt" clear crystal out of a rock. You cut or carve it out. And I don't believe it is a bad translation either. It may very well be an archaic definition which is not found in most dictionaries. It would be interesting to see what definitions the great Oxford Dictionary would give for it. Unfortunately I don't have access to that dictionary at the moment.

Remind me tomorrow and I'll look it up. Am going to sleep as soon as I can force myself to shut my laptop.

[zerinus]

Remind me tomorrow and I'll look it up. Am going to sleep as soon as I can force myself to shut my laptop.

Thank you calm. I was referring to the great Oxford English Dictionary. It comes in twenty giant volumes. It is a historical dictionary. It gives you the history of the development every word in English. See:

http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?q=oxford+english+dictionary+john+simpson&hl=en&cid=11804534360397716222&ei=zzFTT8qQG5-w4AaTyNXyDA&ved=0CBAQrRI

If you have access to that dictionary, it would be interesting to see what definitions it would give for it.

Edited March 4, 2012 by zerinus