Can We Mormons Get Our Groove On?

[Bernard Gui]

Music is such a personal thing, i don't think there is anyway to please everyone, even most of the time.

 

We had a beautiful musical number in one of my old wards where a sister sang "Amazing Grace".  It was not approved, and she kind of snuck it in, but it was wonderful and i thought it really added to the meeting.

 

My bishop though, a wonderful man who is very accepting, was not happy after the meeting and kept talking (to my hubby, who was a ward clerk) about how the spirit instantly left when she sung that song and how hard it was for the speakers to get it back.

 

It was a reminder to me that our own personal beliefs towards things can really influence whether or not we are able to feel the spirit.

Key words......"she kind of snuck it in...." in defiance of Church policies and her bishopric. I find it hard to believe the Spirit 

would honor that, which is my point.....that music is purely emotional and has little to do with the Spirit (I'm not saying this is

a bad thing, just that we need to discern the difference).)

[Bernard Gui]

...you will see that what I said was that we need to become a world wide church and integrate all forms of music....

 

But the fact that we have become a world-wide church makes it imperative that we have unifying

elements of our liturgy and worship habits, hence, the formerly ubiquitous Catholic mass in Latin.

Having a set of hymns that are known church-wide and transcend local differences is one way to

achieve this while maintaining some variety as local musicians produce the music in their tongue

rather than trained professionals directing the service. I don't believe sacrament meeting is the

place for this kind of cultural diversity...but there are plenty of church venues where this can and should

be celebrated.

[bluebell]

Key words......"she kind of snuck it in...." in defiance of Church policies and her bishopric. I find it hard to believe the Spirit

would honor that, which is my point.....that music is purely emotional and has little to do with the Spirit (I'm not saying this is

a bad thing, just that we need to discern the difference).)

I don't know. Everyone but him thought it was a fantastic meeting.

But he was the only one who seemed to know that song wasn't supposed to be sung so that seems to have impacted how the speakers were received, both by him and by everyone else.

I don't believe the spirit would have denied the entire congregation the opportunity to learn truth because of the actions of one person.

Also, if hymns are truly a prayer to God, I don't know how we can say that they have little to do with the Spirit.

[Tacenda]

It's called legalism. Too worried about the letter of the law, not the spirit.. I would like to know who or what told this bishop that singing the "Amazing Grace" song was bad, it's right up there with, wearing a cross is bad, I guess. ETA: Anyone have the who or what?

Edited January 1, 2014 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

It's called legalism. Too worried about the letter of the law, not the spirit.. I would like to know who or what told this bishop that singing the "Amazing Grace" song was bad, it's right up there with, wearing a cross is bad, I guess. ETA: Anyone have the who or what?

I don't think its legalism. And I don't think it has anything to do with not being worried about the spirit.

I don't think it's very fair to try to make someone feel bad because they are sincerely trying to do the will of the Father.

Sometimes we are wrong about what Heavenly Father really wants, but if we are really trying I don't think it bothers Him a ton. He'll help us work it out.

 

Edit to add-i also wonder why Amazing Grace isn't allowed, or where the list of music is that says it's not as i have no idea.

Edited January 1, 2014 by bluebell

[mfbukowski]

But the fact that we have become a world-wide church makes it imperative that we have unifying

elements of our liturgy and worship habits, hence, the formerly ubiquitous Catholic mass in Latin.

Having a set of hymns that are known church-wide and transcend local differences is one way to

achieve this while maintaining some variety as local musicians produce the music in their tongue

rather than trained professionals directing the service. I don't believe sacrament meeting is the

place for this kind of cultural diversity...but there are plenty of church venues where this can and should

be celebrated.

So the only acceptable culture is Utah Mormon and old protestant hymns rewritten to have a pioneer flavor?

[volgadon]

So the only acceptable culture is Utah Mormon and old protestant hymns rewritten to have a pioneer flavor?

 

For many, many years there were only a handful of our hymns translated into Russian. One of the Russian members had taken the melody used for "In Humility, Our Savior," and penned some exquisitely beautiful verses on Jesus. In my opinion there was little equal to it in any hymn book of any denomination. Sadly, when a new, Russian green hymn book as released in 2005 or so, the committee dropped the hymn in favour of a rather wooden translation of "In Humility."

[The Nehor]

It's called legalism. Too worried about the letter of the law, not the spirit.. I would like to know who or what told this bishop that singing the "Amazing Grace" song was bad, it's right up there with, wearing a cross is bad, I guess. ETA: Anyone have the who or what?

 

Probably the Holy Ghost since he said it left him. It is the Bishop's meeting. He is in charge and has the keys to administer it within the guidelines of those who hold keys further up the chain.

 

Jesus taught conformity to the Law. His complaint was that the spirit of the law was lost while the letter was obeyed. He wants both the letter and the spirit of the law obeyed.

[mfbukowski]

For many, many years there were only a handful of our hymns translated into Russian. One of the Russian members had taken the melody used for "In Humility, Our Savior," and penned some exquisitely beautiful verses on Jesus. In my opinion there was little equal to it in any hymn book of any denomination. Sadly, when a new, Russian green hymn book as released in 2005 or so, the committee dropped the hymn in favour of a rather wooden translation of "In Humility."

When you have little evangelical congregations you can pick local music preferences. 

 

In a worldwide church, the issue gets much more complicated. Finding some balance is going to be a problem.

[CV75]

Cultural music and art can be a beautiful expression and symbol of the workings of the Spirit.  There is no "detraction" from the Spirit in allowing for local cultural expression in worship music.  It is not an "over-dependence on cultural priorities", it is simply an allowance and sensitivity towards people who want to worship in ways that are meaningful to them and that they identify with.  The Spirit is expressed in many different ways through art and music in every culture, and every expression is worthy.  No one expression should be preferred over another, because the diversity of cultural expression gives a much more comprehensive and beautifully complex understanding of the workings of the Spirit, with all of its multiple shades and textures of sound and art.  

 

I believe that we should unite through diversity rather than promote a unity of culture.  The only unity that should be promoted is in doctrine and love.  I think that the decision of what instrumentation is appropriate for a congregation should be left up to the local leaders who know their people and cultural appropriateness.  The piano is a great choice for the practical reasons of volume without amplification, and because it can play each choral harmony and melody with only one musician, allowing for the congregation to find their parts.  It is a great choice for hymnal singing for those reasons, but no musical instrument should be discriminated against when performing musical numbers.  Let the local leaders decide what is appropriate.

(Local leaders already decide what is appropriate: read the Handbook!!!)

 

Because there is existing guidance provided from our general leaders, the detraction from the Spirit occurs when people challenge it based on their own cultural tunnel vision, especially when (as I pointed out) the keyboard accompaniment is a widely accepted practice across the globe, as are the hymns.

 

Considering the spiritual and covenantal bases for uniting the saints (which are more fundamental than doctrine and even love since they inform the expression of doctrine and love), take a look at Elder Oaks’ articles I linked (and there are so many others!) about the supporting, and far from primary, role that cultural and individual diversity takes in establishing Zion. We build up from the best of culture and tradition that we have (the light we have), and in the case of instrumentation (as I pointed out) the keyboard accompaniment is already familiar across the globe.

 

LOL regarding discrimination against musical instruments! “Organs and pianos, or their electronic equivalents, are the standard instruments used in Church meetings. If other instruments are used, their use should be in keeping with the spirit of the meeting. Instruments with a prominent or less worshipful sound, such as most brass and percussion, are not appropriate for sacrament meeting.” It is clear from the Handbook that all these decisions are made under the direction of righteously discerning local leaders who direct the meetings according to the Spirit. Rather than try to critique the Church from the top down, have a chat with your own righteously discerning local leader!

[CV75]

P.S. Ever look at all the options that are avaliable for use during Sunday meetings on the organ knobs, or even the keyboard?!?!?!

Edited January 1, 2014 by CV75

[mfbukowski]

 

(Local leaders already decide what is appropriate: read the Handbook!!!)

 

Because there is existing guidance provided from our general leaders, the detraction from the Spirit occurs when people challenge it based on their own cultural tunnel vision, especially when (as I pointed out) the keyboard accompaniment is a widely accepted practice across the globe, as are the hymns.

 

Considering the spiritual and covenantal bases for uniting the saints (which are more fundamental than doctrine and even love since they inform the expression of doctrine and love), take a look at Elder Oaks’ articles I linked (and there are so many others!) about the supporting, and far from primary, role that cultural and individual diversity takes in establishing Zion. We build up from the best of culture and tradition that we have (the light we have), and in the case of instrumentation (as I pointed out) the keyboard accompaniment is already familiar across the globe.

 

LOL regarding discrimination against musical instruments! “Organs and pianos, or their electronic equivalents, are the standard instruments used in Church meetings. If other instruments are used, their use should be in keeping with the spirit of the meeting. Instruments with a prominent or less worshipful sound, such as most brass and percussion, are not appropriate for sacrament meeting.” It is clear from the Handbook that all these decisions are made under the direction of righteously discerning local leaders who direct the meetings according to the Spirit. Rather than try to critique the Church from the top down, have a chat with your own righteously discerning local leader!

 

"Less worshipful sound"?  To whom is the question.

[Calm]

Key words......"she kind of snuck it in...." in defiance of Church policies and her bishopric. I find it hard to believe the Spirit would honor that......

But the Spirit might attend those who were not part of the defiance surely? Why would those who did no wrong be deprived of a spiritual experience by that actions of another?

If the Sacrament is valid for those who take it even if the young priest blessing it went out and participate in a drunk orgy the night before, why wouldn't the same exist for other aspects of worship?

Edited January 1, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

It's called legalism. Too worried about the letter of the law, not the spirit.. I would like to know who or what told this bishop that singing the "Amazing Grace" song was bad....

The instruction is, I believe, that what is part of our worship should be teaching correct doctrine. Just becomes something sounds beautiful and even invites the Spirit, if it teaches incorrect doctrine in a meeting whose purposes include education of the members in the doctrine of our faith....I can see why it would be viewed as inappropriate and I would tend to agree.

Perhaps the point would be clearer if the song was a memorial to Mary for her role as, not the mother of Christ, but co-redemptrix (I believe that is the word) or celebrates her as the Immaculate Conception, concepts that is obviously not found in LDS doctrine.

[Calm]

From the Handbook...

14.1 Purpose of Music in the Church

In a revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord said, “My soul delighteth in the song of the heart; yea, the song of the righteous is a prayer unto me, and it shall be answered with a blessing upon their heads” (D&C 25:12).

The First Presidency said:

“Inspirational music is an essential part of our church meetings. The hymns invite the Spirit of the Lord, create a feeling of reverence, unify us as members, and provide a way for us to offer praises to the Lord.

“Some of the greatest sermons are preached by the singing of hymns. Hymns move us to repentance and good works, build testimony and faith, comfort the weary, console the mourning, and inspire us to endure to the end” (Hymns, ix).

-----

 

14.4 Music in the Ward

Appropriate music is a vital part of Church meetings, particularly sacrament meetings. Music that is carefully selected and properly presented can greatly enhance the spirit of worship. Music should be worshipful and fit the spirit of the meeting. Priesthood leaders determine what is suitable.

 14.4.1

Planning Music for Church Worship Services

Members who serve in ward music callings work together to select appropriate music for worship services. When feasible, the bishop and his counselors choose meeting topics well in advance. This allows the music chairman, music director, and choir director to plan hymns, special selections, and choir performances that complement and reinforce the meeting topics. This also allows time for the bishopric to approve the musical selections in advance.

 14.4.2

Guidelines for Choosing Appropriate Music for Church Worship Services

All Church music should be consistent with the following guidelines.

The hymns are the basic music for worship services and are standard for all congregational singing. In addition, other appropriate selections may be used for prelude and postlude music, choir music, and special musical presentations. If musical selections other than the hymns are used, they should be in keeping with the spirit of the hymns. Texts should be doctrinally correct. (See “Hymns for Congregations,” Hymns, 380–81.)

Secular music should not replace sacred music in Sunday meetings. Some religiously oriented music presented in a popular style is not appropriate for sacrament meetings. Also, much sacred music that is suitable for concerts and recitals is not appropriate for a Latter-day Saint worship service.

Music in Church meetings should not draw attention to itself or be for demonstration. This music is for worship, not performance....

Music in Church meetings should usually be sung in the language of the congregation.

 14.4.3

Standard Musical Elements in Church Worship Services

Prelude and Postlude Music

Quiet prelude and postlude music creates an atmosphere of worship that invites the Spirit into Church meetings. The organist or pianist usually plays hymns or other appropriate music for five to ten minutes before and after a meeting. Playing hymns can help members review gospel teachings in their minds.

Congregational Singing

Most Church meetings are enhanced by the singing of hymns. Music provides a primary means by which members participate in Church worship services. Congregational singing has a unique and often underused power for unifying members as they worship together.

As appropriate, a priesthood leader may ask a congregation to stand for an intermediate hymn or a national anthem (see “Hymns for Congregations,” Hymns, 380–81).

Special Musical Selections

Musical selections may be presented by choirs, vocal and instrumental soloists, and small groups. Hymns and other appropriate selections may be used (see 14.4.2).

 14.4.4

Sacrament Meetings

The bishopric approves music for sacrament meetings. Music and musical texts are to be sacred, dignified, and otherwise suitable for sacrament meeting. Music in sacrament meeting is for worship, not for a performance that draws attention to itself.....

The sacrament hymn is always sung by the congregation. It should refer to the sacrament itself or to the sacrifice of the Savior. Vocal solos or instrumental music may not replace this hymn. No music should be played during the sacrament prayer, while the sacrament is being passed, or as a postlude after the sacrament is passed.

Special musical selections or a congregational hymn may be scheduled after the sacrament or between speakers (see “Special Musical Selections” in 14.4.3).

If a musical program is presented, it should be simple, reverent, and short enough to allow a spoken message. Sacrament meetings should not be turned over to outside musical groups. Recitals, concerts, and pageantry are not appropriate in sacrament meeting.

 14.4.5

Choirs...

Church choirs are encouraged to use the hymnbook as their basic resource because the hymns teach the truths of the restored gospel.....

 14.4.6

Using Music in the Classroom

Hymn singing can be an effective way to introduce or reinforce gospel principles taught in the classroom. Leaders should encourage teachers to use the hymns to enhance classroom instruction.

[The Nehor]

But the Spirit might attend those who were not part of the defiance surely? Why would those who did no wrong be deprived of a spiritual experience by that actions of another?

 

It happens all the time. The Spirit flees a place and those in tune feel the loss and know something is wrong. It does not mean I am sinning. It does mean I need to figure out what is going on.

 

 

"Less worshipful sound"?  To whom is the question.

 

God. I imagine He has a pretty good idea of what kind of music is most likely to draw people to him in worship. Either that or the Brethren are making it up as they go.

[Calm]

It happens all the time. The Spirit flees a place and those in tune feel the loss and know something is wrong. It does not mean I am sinning. It does mean I need to figure out what is going on.

I definitely agree it can happen. Do you believe it happens all the time though?

[Calm]

I found this discussion about the theological import of Amazing Grace in the wiki rather interesting, including how people feel so comfortable to adapt it to their personal views...for some reason that makes me somewhat uncomfortable, I see it as more appropriate to view a hymn in the way its creator wanted it viewed, to teach and celebrate what he was teaching and celebrating and wanting to share. One should create their own works if they want to share a personal message but would have to change another's in order to use it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazing_Grace

"Performers in more recent decades sometimes make slight changes in Newton's text to avoid the suggestion of self-loathing. The second line, "That saved a wretch like me!" has been rendered "That saved and strengthened me", "save a soul like me", or "that saved and set me free".[87] Some critics, notably the poet Kathleen Norris in her book Amazing Grace: A Vocabulary of Faith, find the revisions "laughably bland".[88] Newton's "wretchedness" was personal, reflecting a perception of himself as outcast and miserable, as when he was enslaved in Sierra Leone and recognized how far he had fallen in life.[89] Singers who change the words do so to reflect their won experiences.

Also at work is a shift in Christian theology. Newton's words have generally been taken to reflect a Calvinistic view of redemption and grace in which sinners were thought to be so vile that they were unable to change for the better without a rescue action by God. Popular understandings of redemption and human self-worth has changed since John Calvin's ideas held more sway. Grace is more likely to be viewed by religious people today as an innate quality within all persons, akin to the "inner light of Quaker theology. Grace is something to be discovered and uncovered.

Bruce Hindmarsh suggests that the secular popularity of "Amazing Grace" is due to the absence of any mention of God in the lyrics until the fourth verse (by Excell's version, the fourth verse begins "When we've been there ten thousand years"), and that the song represents the ability of humanity to transform itself instead of a transformation taking place at the hands of God. "Grace", however, to John Newton had a clearer meaning, as he used the word to represent God or the power of God.[90]

The words of "Amazing Grace" have become as individual as the singer or listener.[91] Newton's own subtlety, in Steve Turner's opinion, leaves the hymn's meaning open to a variety of interpretations, both religious and secular.[92]"

[mfbukowski]

I found this discussion about the theological import of Amazing Grace in the wiki rather interesting, including how people feel so comfortable to adapt it to their personal views...for some reason that makes me somewhat uncomfortable, I see it as more appropriate to view a hymn in the way its creator wanted it viewed, to teach and celebrate what he was teaching and celebrating and wanting to share. One should create their own works if they want to share a personal message but would have to change another's in order to use it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazing_Grace

"Performers in more recent decades sometimes make slight changes in Newton's text to avoid the suggestion of self-loathing. The second line, "That saved a wretch like me!" has been rendered "That saved and strengthened me", "save a soul like me", or "that saved and set me free".[87] Some critics, notably the poet Kathleen Norris in her book Amazing Grace: A Vocabulary of Faith, find the revisions "laughably bland".[88] Newton's "wretchedness" was personal, reflecting a perception of himself as outcast and miserable, as when he was enslaved in Sierra Leone and recognized how far he had fallen in life.[89] Singers who change the words do so to reflect their won experiences.

Also at work is a shift in Christian theology. Newton's words have generally been taken to reflect a Calvinistic view of redemption and grace in which sinners were thought to be so vile that they were unable to change for the better without a rescue action by God. Popular understandings of redemption and human self-worth has changed since John Calvin's ideas held more sway. Grace is more likely to be viewed by religious people today as an innate quality within all persons, akin to the "inner light of Quaker theology. Grace is something to be discovered and uncovered.

Bruce Hindmarsh suggests that the secular popularity of "Amazing Grace" is due to the absence of any mention of God in the lyrics until the fourth verse (by Excell's version, the fourth verse begins "When we've been there ten thousand years"), and that the song represents the ability of humanity to transform itself instead of a transformation taking place at the hands of God. "Grace", however, to John Newton had a clearer meaning, as he used the word to represent God or the power of God.[90]

The words of "Amazing Grace" have become as individual as the singer or listener.[91] Newton's own subtlety, in Steve Turner's opinion, leaves the hymn's meaning open to a variety of interpretations, both religious and secular.[92]"

There is actually a branch of Aesthetic theory in philosophy dedicated to the questions of whether or not the artist's intentions are, or should be considered, relevant to the interpretation of the art.

 

The obvious problem with that position shows itself in questions, for example, about "presentism" in the scriptures.  This came up recently on another thread where we were discussing the "original" interpretation and etymology of the Tetragrammaton.

 

So should we be restricted to the "original" meaning of the word "God" as understood by ancient Hebrews?  At what historical moment?

 

It's impossible to keep original interpretations of anything.  To a large degree we can't even know what they were, because our perceptions of the world have changed so much.

[mormonnewb]

So the only acceptable culture is Utah Mormon and old protestant hymns rewritten to have a pioneer flavor?

You tell 'em, New Best Friend of Mine!

[pogi]

(Local leaders already decide what is appropriate: read the Handbook!!!)

 

Perfect.

 

We build up from the best of culture and tradition that we have 

 

Do I smell ethnocentrism?  As much as you want the church to have one single cultural identity, I don't think that is what the brethren have in mind.  How could you possibly give more value to one culture over another?  That is a subjective judgment. 

 

“Organs and pianos, or their electronic equivalents, are the standard instruments used in Church meetings. If other instruments are used, their use should be in keeping with the spirit of the meeting. Instruments with a prominent or less worshipful sound, such as most brass and percussion, are not appropriate for sacrament meeting.” It is clear from the Handbook that all these decisions are made under the direction of righteously discerning local leaders who direct the meetings according to the Spirit. Rather than try to critique the Church from the top down, have a chat with your own righteously discerning local leader!

 

Where does it say this, I could not find it in cal's post from the handbook?  Is there another section that she missed?  I am really glad she posted that because it seems to favor local decisions more than top down governance in matters of music selection.  Good to know. 

Edited January 1, 2014 by pogi

[The Nehor]

I definitely agree it can happen. Do you believe it happens all the time though?

 

"All the time" in the colloquial sense that it happens regularly.

 

So the only acceptable culture is Utah Mormon and old protestant hymns rewritten to have a pioneer flavor?

 

Until we have some spiritual and musical geniuses create something better we are stuck with it.

[The Nehor]

Do I smell ethnocentrism?  As much as you want the church to have one single cultural identity, I don't think that is what the brethren have in mind.  How could you possibly give more value to one culture over another?  That is a subjective judgment. 

 

I'm ethnocentric. I want ZIon which is a culture. The best culture. Some say it exists in Utah. They are wrong. Someone in Utah wrote "Saturday's Warriors" sooo......no.

[mormonnewb]

"All the time" in the colloquial sense that it happens regularly.

Until we have some spiritual and musical geniuses create something better we are stuck with it.

We have had many spiritual and musical geniuses come up with something better. That might explain why the other 99% of the Christian world does NOT listen to our hymns.

Do you really think that Christ has a preference for the songs in OUR hymnal?

[Stone holm]

So the only acceptable culture is Utah Mormon and old protestant hymns rewritten to have a pioneer flavor?

Didn't you get the memo? What do you want to do go off brand? We go to great lengths to establish our brand as to our attire, the look of our buildings, the font used our signage, and our music. Music has been incredibly important to establishing our brand over the years, hence the greater likelihood of non members having heard of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir than the name of our church. Course the name of our Church is not as catchy a brand name no matter how often the Brethren ask us not to use Mormon.