Church Members in California Seeking "Religious Exemption" Forms for Vaccine, Church Saying "Nope."

[Calm]

Relevant to the VAERS discussion, it seems vaguely familiar so it may have been posted before;

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/vaers-preprint-debacle/

Quote

VAERS, of course, is a 30-year-old database to which anyone can literally report anything that might be an adverse event after vaccination.

As I like to say, the greatest strength of VAERS is that anyone can report anything to it, but simultaneously the greatest weakness of VAERS is that anyone can report anything to it. This open nature makes VAERS useful as an early reporting system, a “canary in the coal mine”, if you will, that can find safety signals if there are a large number of reports of a particular adverse event after a given vaccine, but to determine if such a safety signal indicates actual correlation that might indicate causation requires other, more rigorously maintained, active surveillance systems such as the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD). That’s why, at best, VAERS can be hypothesis generating, not hypothesis testing, and it is not suitable for estimating the incidence of an adverse event after vaccination.

 

[Tacenda]

My daughter and I had a extreme debate yesterday when she picked up my granddaughter after I babysat. She posts constantly things against the vaccine. And we both try not to discuss politics, be she's got me worried. I shouldn't have brought it up but I asked if the company she works for, it's part of the church arm, is pressuring her to get it, and she said not yet but they are trying to entice employees by giving cash or something like that, now can't remember. 

My granddaughter will most likely never get vaccinated now, my daughter is against them all. She thinks the government is going to take her daughter's freedom, and she looks at me like I'm an idiot for not believing something horrible is on the horizon. 

Although we were debating, I kept looking at my granddaughter and I could tell it was stressing her out. And I completely felt like an awful grandmother. And we quickly quit but I did say something I regret and told her the youtubers she follows are like a cult. And she needs the facts, and to watch real news. And she said real news is fake. I'm at a loss for what to do, if this doesn't belong here I will delete if needed. 

Edited October 10, 2021 by Tacenda

[Kenngo1969]

I haven't been following the thread slavishly, so forgive me for chiming in late and for possibly posting something that, already, has been mentioned, but I found this, from KSL via East Idaho News. (Yeah, I'm still trying to figure that one out.  Search me! )  https://www.eastidahonews.com/2021/08/where-do-major-us-religions-stand-on-the-covid-19-vaccination/

[Hamba Tuhan]

On 10/7/2021 at 8:51 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

As you will know, we have really struggled with vaccine supply here until recently, but thanks to shipments from America, today my jurisdiction hit 95.38 per cent of our adult population vaccinated with at least one dose.

'Adult' for us, by the way, is 16+, but we're already over 80 per cent for ages 12 to 15.

Quick update: in the past four days, the percentage of our population age 12+ with at least one vaccine dose has jumped to 98 per cent! The percentage with both doses today hit 71 per cent.

My sincere thanks once again to all the selfless Americans who have forfeited their doses to a people eager for them! 

'But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first'.

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Quick update: in the past four days, the percentage of our population age 12+ with at least one vaccine dose has jumped to 98 per cent! The percentage with both doses today hit 71 per cent.

My sincere thanks once again to all the selfless Americans who have forfeited their doses to a people eager for them! 

'But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first'.

Glad they got some use! What a waste on the Americans that eschewed it.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Quick update: in the past four days, the percentage of our population age 12+ with at least one vaccine dose has jumped to 98 per cent! The percentage with both doses today hit 71 per cent.

My sincere thanks once again to all the selfless Americans who have forfeited their doses to a people eager for them! 

'But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first'.

Americans are just not used to doing what they are told, fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how one sees it!

It's that manifest destiny thing I think.  Somebody shook the box and all the loose marbles rolled west.

Edited October 11, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Americans are just not used to doing what they are told, fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how one sees it!

It's that manifest destiny thing I think.  Somebody shook the box and all the loose marbles rolled west.

Or some Americans don't look at the big picture of how caring for their fellow being will in the end save mankind.

[Ragerunner]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Or some Americans don't look at the big picture of how caring for their fellow being will in the end save mankind.

Its kind of stunning to watch. I have so many family members and active friends in the church who have dug in so deep on this they are willing to die or kill other loved ones. That is how deep the rabbit hole has become.

They don’t care what the Prophet has said, they apparently don’t care how many friends and loved ones lay in the hospital, they even seem unmoved after attending Covid funerals. Their responses are usually one of the following:

Don’t judge me;

I don’t want to talk about it;

I don’t care what the prophet said, the spirit told me something different;

or it’s all a big plan by so and so, or government, or whatever. Which some how then justifies their actions.

Our bishop almost died from Covid recently (young guy). He even got up and told the ward how he was wrong for not heeding the prophet’s council and he hoped the rest of the ward will follow the prophet.

We still have about 80% with no mask, no social distancing in classes and I know a large percentage is also unvaccinated. We have see several members (including some in their 30s) die.

But hearts are so hardened on this they simply refuse to care. They are going to be ‘right’ no matter the cost.

I do think the brethren are at a lose on what to do at this point and how to help pull so many members back out of the rabbit hole.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Ragerunner

[Peacefully]

2 hours ago, Ragerunner said:

Its kind of stunning to watch. I have so many family members and active friends in the church who have dug in so deep on this they are willing to die or kill other loved ones. That is how deep the rabbit hole has become.

They don’t care what the Prophet has said, they apparently don’t care how many friends and loved ones lay in the hospital, they even seem unmoved after attending Covid funerals. Their responses are usually one of the following:

Don’t judge me;

I don’t want to talk about it;

I don’t care what the prophet said, the spirit told me something different;

or it’s all a big plan by so and so, or government, or whatever. Which some how then justifies their actions.

Our bishop almost died from Covid recently (young guy). He even got up and told the ward how he was wrong for not heeding the prophet’s council and he hoped the rest of the ward will follow the prophet.

We still have about 80% with no mask, no social distancing in classes and I know a large percentage is also unvaccinated. We have see several members (including some in their 30s) die.

But hearts are so hardened on this they simply refuse to care. They are going to be ‘right’ no matter the cost.

I do think the brethren are at a lose on what to do at this point and how to help pull so many members back out of the rabbit hole.

This is so sad:(

[Hamba Tuhan]

12 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Americans are just not used to doing what they are told, fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how one sees it!

A very problematic cultural trait when 'obedience is the first law of heaven'.

I know many people like to think that it's easier to obey God Himself than to hearken to prophets, but the scriptures plainly teach that those who can't abide prophets can't abide the Lord either, and I've repeatedly watched this play out in my own world as well. It's one of the most pernicious and dangerous self-deceptions.

As Jesus clearly taught, those who receive His prophets receive Him, and those who reject His prophets (eventually) reject Him. Based on my experience, one of the reasons God gave us prophets is to train us to recognise and then hearken to Him. The humility it takes to honour prophets is nothing compared to the humility it takes to actually submit one's will to the Saviour!

Edited October 12, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 hours ago, Ragerunner said:

Our bishop almost died from Covid recently (young guy). He even got up and told the ward how he was wrong for not heeding the prophet’s council and he hoped the rest of the ward will follow the prophet.

I'm grateful for your bishop's humility! Publicly repenting is one of the most beneficial things we can do for other people.

Quote

I do think the brethren are at a lose on what to do at this point and how to help pull so many members back out of the rabbit hole.

When I lived in America, I commonly heard comments from Anglo-American members there about how much other people's culture gets in the way of gospel living, and we sometimes get that from American missionaries here too. It's time for some of these people to have a look for the cultural beams in their own eyes ...

[Rain]

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

A very problematic cultural trait when 'obedience is the first law of heaven'.

Not really problematic.  It depends on how you look at it and how it works. 

If God is telling you to do something it is very different than if Satan or another imperfect person is telling you what to do.

Also, Satan wanted to tell us what to do for his own glory.  God wants us to do things to be like Him and gave us the agency to do the things that would help us be like Him.

Americans, and others, may have a problem with being told by anyone they have to do something, but many are still good with God telling them.

 

 

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I know many people like to think that it's easier to obey God Himself than to hearken to prophets, but the scriptures plainly teach that those who can't abide prophets can't abide the Lord either, and I've repeatedly watched this play out in my own world as well. It's one of the most pernicious and dangerous self-deceptions.

As Jesus clearly taught, those who receive His prophets receive Him, and those who reject His prophets (eventually) reject Him. Based on my experience, one of the reasons God gave us prophets is to train us to recognise and then hearken to Him. The humility it takes to honour prophets is nothing compared to the humility it takes to actually submit one's will to the Saviour!

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, Rain said:

If God is telling you to do something it is very different than if Satan or another imperfect person is telling you what to do.

Agreed in principle. But from the beginning, one of the main ways that God has used to tell us things is through imperfect people called prophets.

Quote

Americans, and others, may have a problem with being told by anyone they have to do something, but many are still good with God telling them.

The problem arises when people think they are good with God telling them things whilst rejecting what God really is telling them through authorised prophets. It's a common self-deception, and it actually moves people away from Christ and towards self-worship.

'Whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same'. This doesn't somehow mean that prophets share in God's perfection; it just means that learning to recognise God's voice in the words of His very human prophets is an essential step towards genuinely following God. This is one of the most recurring themes in scripture, and in my opinion, it is one of the central messages of the endowment.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[nuclearfuels]

On 10/6/2021 at 11:22 PM, strappinglad said:

An absolute lie. Israel and Singapore are two of the most heavily vaccinated countries in the world and both are now experiencing high case levels of covid. The vaccine WILL NOT PREVENT ONE FROM CONTRACTING THE DISEASE. It might keep one from a severe case. There are fully vaccinated people in hospital and some of them in ICU. 

3,577 new COVID cases in Singapore; 3 unvaccinated deaths (msn.com)

Note: Singapore is 80% vaccinated. The US is about 55%

Truth 

[mfbukowski]

13 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

On 10/11/2021 at 8:22 AM, mfbukowski said:

 

A very problematic cultural trait when 'obedience is the first law of heaven

Well I suppose.

But one could not follow that "law" without agency. 

Perfect obedience was Satan 's plan

Edited October 12, 2021 by mfbukowski

[longview]

20 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Well I suppose.

But one could not follow that 'law* without agency

Perfect obedience was Satan 's plan

Perfect obedience would entail embracing God's Plan of Happiness.  Not what Satan was gunning for.  Satan want perfect compulsion which is to give him all power and replace Heavenly Father but in the process would NOT exalt any of the spirit children.  If there is no exaltation then the order of Heaven and the Priesthood would have been destroyed.

But this would not happen because there other "generations" of the Gods.  They would render some kind of judgment and possibly cast out maybe 80% of the children to outer darkness and the remainder reassigned to someplace else for another attempt at a Plan of Happiness.

In any case, God has perfect omniscience and will take prudent steps to nip potential deal breakers to advance.  Spirit children will always have agency within the bounds that God has set (as required by the eternal law of justice).

Edited October 12, 2021 by longview

[mfbukowski]

13 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I'm grateful for your bishop's humility! Publicly repenting is one of the most beneficial things we can do for other people.

When I lived in America, I commonly heard comments from Anglo-American members there about how much other people's culture gets in the way of gospel living, and we sometimes get that from American missionaries here too. It's time for some of these people to have a look for the cultural beams in their own eyes ...

Yes, dang it.

Agency was clearly one of God's biggest mistakes.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This doesn't somehow mean that prophets share in God's perfection; it just means that learning to recognise God's voice in the words of His very human prophets is an essential step towards genuinely following God. This is one of the most recurring themes in scripture, and in my opinion, it is one of the central messages of the endowment.

And so agency is prior to obedience.

Being raised with prophets is one thing, but trying to figure out on your own who IS and who is NOT an alleged prophet is the prime problem in life, which can only be accomplished through, as you say, and I agree, through personal revelation.

But unfortunately the way we learn who is right and who is wrong is through agency until we find the right one of the world's "prophets"- by which I mean any alleged purveyor alleged truth including any one who puts forth any opinion on anything - and know that he/she is of God, we are limited to our own intelligence.

Which means experimentation.  Agency.  Some political systems allow agency, others don't.

Someone who is against vaccination dies, oops!

Guess they learned their lesson! 

Agency can be a tough teacher until we find God's truth.   BUT that is his plan.   We mess up here, our journey of learning still goes on beyond death, thanks to God's full plan.

Edited October 12, 2021 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

An interesting article about Singapore

https://fortune.com/2021/09/28/singapore-covid-reopening-record-cases-vaccines/

By the way, I DO have both vaccinations for covid and am waiting for the Moderna OK for number 3.

I am definitely not  opposed to vaccinations of any kind, just in favor of agency.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

An interesting article about Singapore

https://fortune.com/2021/09/28/singapore-covid-reopening-record-cases-vaccines/

By the way, I DO have both vaccinations for covid and am waiting for the Moderna OK for number 3.

I am definitely not  opposed to vaccinations of any kind, just in favor of agency.

The article is clearly being used to uphold vaccination as a good model for living with endemic Covid.  

Quote

But Singapore's 80% vaccination rate has kept severe cases and deaths down, potentially proving that living with the virus—versus trying to eradicate it—is the surest path out of the pandemic.

 

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I am definitely not  opposed to vaccinations of any kind, just in favor of agency.

I can respect this approach so much more than other approaches which rely on dangerous downplay of the virus and vaccines and rely largely on conspiracy theories in an effort to bolster up agency.   That approach is reckless and dangerous.

I think the agency argument is appealing, especially as a Latter-day Saints, but I think there is a counter argument to be made, even from a Latter-day Saint perspective.  We do not believe in unbridled liberty - anarchy.  While we believe in agency, we don't believe that agency is without consequence.  If it harms others - even unintentionally - we believe that it should be regulated with consequences by law.  There are boundaries to agency/liberty.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, longview said:

Perfect obedience would entail embracing God's Plan of Happiness.  Not what Satan was gunning for.  Satan want perfect compulsion which is to give him all power and replace Heavenly Father but in the process would NOT exalt any of the spirit children. 

Another possibility is Satan was simply lying about being able to abolish the law for everyone and still be able to get them into a glorified state/heaven.  This to me is more consistent with his current playbook. 

Edited October 12, 2021 by Calm

[ksfisher]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I am definitely not  opposed to vaccinations of any kind, just in favor of agency.

How is this different, to you, than other vaccinations that are required for things like going to school?

I'm in favor of agency as well, but there are all kinds of limits placed on it by the government.  I can't shoot a gun wherever I want.  I can't drive a car as fast as I want.  These limits are placed on my agency to limit, or eliminate, harm that I could cause others.  Are vaccinations different?

Edited October 12, 2021 by ksfisher

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Agency was clearly one of God's biggest mistakes.

Mate, you're tilting at windmills here. No one -- least of all I -- has spoken in any way against the primacy or centrality of agency.

Unless you're suggesting that my neighbours and I somehow have less agency than Americans do (or value it less?) because, as of this morning, 98.5 per cent of us have chosen to be vaccinated against COVID-19 ...

Edited October 13, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[longview]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

Another possibility is Satan was simply lying about being able to abolish the law for everyone and still be able to get them into a glorified state/heaven.  This to me is more consistent with his current playbook. 

Yes.  The followers of Satan bought the line that the only fair thing is for EVERYBODY to have equal outcomes.  Whereas God the Father and Jesus provided equal opportunities.  Kind of analogous to why the Soviet Union collapsed in the 90's.  It was expressed with this saying:  "I will pretend to work for as long as you pretend to pay me".

[The Nehor]

13 hours ago, longview said:

Whereas God the Father and Jesus provided equal opportunities.

What planet are you living on and do they have an opening I can squeeze into?