Tacenda Posted November 6, 2021 Posted November 6, 2021 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: The Church, or any Church should never be put in a position where there should be a need for any such letters. Not now, nor ever again in a “Democratic Republic”, or any Nation under the “rule of law”. Besides, even if such a letter were issued or endorsed, (currently) they are not accepting and such exemptions. Also, seeking to obtain such an exemption, only encourages (ours) any Government into believing that they have the power to override individual liberty. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Sums it all up. ETA: How do you feel about the law of wearing your seat belt? Sometimes seat belts can kill you, more often than the shot, I believe. Edited November 6, 2021 by Tacenda
Tacenda Posted November 6, 2021 Posted November 6, 2021 On 10/18/2021 at 9:30 PM, Hamba Tuhan said: When I enter a hospital, I have a right to expect that the people who serve me accept and follow basic health protocols: washing their hands, wearing PPE, being vaccinated against infectious diseases. None of these things is foolproof, but not doing them in such a setting is criminally negligent. When I volunteered at a hospital a few years ago, they made you take the flu shot, everyone that worked there. I refused because I didn't believe in it, therefore I no longer volunteered there. Now I have more knowledge about the flu shot, back then I actually thought it caused the flu, but my friends that work in the medical field straightened me out. I'm glad about that, and they did the same for the covid vaccination.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 6, 2021 Posted November 6, 2021 16 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Desperate times call for desperate measures. Sums it all up. ETA: How do you feel about the law of wearing your seat belt? Sometimes seat belts can kill you, more often than the shot, I believe. I am vaccinated, so I am not opposed to being vaccinated. However, it does not excuse this runaround attempt of any Government to interfere with a person’s God given rights. Also, “vaccines and seatbelts”, really? These are not “desperate times”, and once you are vaccinated, why fear those who are not? If the vaccine works, what does it matter? To use your seatbelt analogy, not wearing a seatbelt only endangers the person not wearing it, not other drivers. Also, not “wearing a seatbelt”, would not possibly mean you could lose your job, or your employer go bankrupt with fines. Careful how you use that phrase, “Desperate times call for desperate measures”. Because one day, that type of “tyrant talk”, could one day be something more important to you. They have already used it to jail “Pastors and Rabbis”, during an earlier part of this pandemic. Again, I am vaccinated. I encourage all adults to do so, but their choice. Of course, if they have had it, there is no need for the vaccine.
Tacenda Posted November 6, 2021 Posted November 6, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: I am vaccinated, so I am not opposed to being vaccinated. However, it does not excuse this runaround attempt of any Government to interfere with a person’s God given rights. Also, “vaccines and seatbelts”, really? These are not “desperate times”, and once you are vaccinated, why fear those who are not? If the vaccine works, what does it matter? To use your seatbelt analogy, not wearing a seatbelt only endangers the person not wearing it, not other drivers. Also, not “wearing a seatbelt”, would not possibly mean you could lose your job, or your employer go bankrupt with fines. Careful how you use that phrase, “Desperate times call for desperate measures”. Because one day, that type of “tyrant talk”, could one day be something more important to you. They have already used it to jail “Pastors and Rabbis”, during an earlier part of this pandemic. Again, I am vaccinated. I encourage all adults to do so, but their choice. Of course, if they have had it, there is no need for the vaccine. No, you're wrong, if you're not wearing a seat belt you are a danger to those in the car when you go flying into everybody. I remember a movie at the high school for Driver's Ed and they showed a guy that flew into a date he was riding with and killed her on impact. And then there are those times a seat belt won't enable to get out in time for say a fire or what not, so not totally foolproof. That's life. But it sounds like there are exemptions for those that don't want to get vaxxed. So it's not as bad as everyone is making it out to be such as losing your freedoms. If that were the case I guess you're free to run a red light, shoot up your neighborhood, and the list goes on really. And you're not allowed to not wear shoes or shirts in a restaurant either. What about the 1918 pandemic, didn't they need to do drastic things in order to nip it in the bud? Edited November 6, 2021 by Tacenda
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 6, 2021 Posted November 6, 2021 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: No, you're wrong, if you're not wearing a seat belt you are a danger to those in the car when you go flying into everybody. I remember a movie at the high school for Driver's Ed and they showed a guy that flew into a date he was riding with and killed her on impact. And then there are those times a seat belt won't enable to get out in time for say a fire or what not, so not totally foolproof. That's life. But it sounds like there are exemptions for those that don't want to get vaxxed. So it's not as bad as everyone is making it out to be such as losing your freedoms. If that were the case I guess you're free to run a red light, shoot up your neighborhood, and the list goes on really. And you're not allowed to not wear shoes or shirts in a restaurant either. What about the 1918 pandemic, didn't they need to do drastic things in order to nip it in the bud? The reason for seatbelts are for the protection of the person wearing it, of course that may just be the cop in me writing. As for the Spanish Flu, some wore masks, but not all. Besides America has reached heard immunity. -1
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 6, 2021 Posted November 6, 2021 2 hours ago, Tacenda said: No, you're wrong, if you're not wearing a seat belt you are a danger to those in the car when you go flying into everybody. I remember a movie at the high school for Driver's Ed and they showed a guy that flew into a date he was riding with and killed her on impact. And then there are those times a seat belt won't enable to get out in time for say a fire or what not, so not totally foolproof. That's life. But it sounds like there are exemptions for those that don't want to get vaxxed. So it's not as bad as everyone is making it out to be such as losing your freedoms. If that were the case I guess you're free to run a red light, shoot up your neighborhood, and the list goes on really. And you're not allowed to not wear shoes or shirts in a restaurant either. What about the 1918 pandemic, didn't they need to do drastic things in order to nip it in the bud? BTW, the COVID-19 vaccine which I and my family have received, it does nothing not keep anyone from getting it, or transmitting it. It only lessens the symptoms, and helps reduce the chances of hospitalization and death. People can still, and do get COVID-19, it is making the rounds in the White House Staff right now. General Colin Powell, was fully vaccinated and still caught the Delta Variant and died. My own daughter was hospitalized, and my wife and I contracted COVID “Again”! There is a lot of confusion surrounding this vaccine. Mandates are not the answer, and threats will only make people more opposed to receiving the vaccine. -1
Tacenda Posted November 6, 2021 Posted November 6, 2021 2 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: The reason for seatbelts are for the protection of the person wearing it, of course that may just be the cop in me writing. As for the Spanish Flu, some wore masks, but not all. Besides America has reached heard immunity. https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/story%3fid=117053&page=1
Calm Posted November 7, 2021 Posted November 7, 2021 3 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: Besides America has reached heard immunity. Where have you read this? 2
Calm Posted November 7, 2021 Posted November 7, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: People can still, and do get COVID-19 Studies show it lessens the chances of getting or transmitting it as well…though not forever unfortunately. (The main Covid thread has the references). However, even if all it did was lessen symptoms, that would still result in a massive saving of lives and prevention of lower quality of life for those that avoid being inflicted with long Covid. Edited November 7, 2021 by Calm 3
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 7, 2021 Posted November 7, 2021 20 minutes ago, Calm said: Studies show it lessens the chances of getting or transmitting it as well…though not forever unfortunately. (The main Covid thread has the references). However, even if all it did was lessen symptoms, that would still result in a massive saving of lives and prevention of lower quality of life for those inflicted with long Covid. I am not discouraging anyone from getting the vaccine, I got it some time ago. I did not need to be told to do so. I think every adult should get it, if they choose, and only if they choose.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 7, 2021 Posted November 7, 2021 27 minutes ago, Calm said: Where have you read this? Heard and read months ago from various sources, until the Delta Variant popped up. The CDC has toggled back and forth on the issue of vaccine requirements, mask requirements, even the inapt Tony Fauci, has done the same. I could cite more places and people, but it will just be ignored.
Calm Posted November 7, 2021 Posted November 7, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: . I could cite more places and people, but it will just be ignored. You haven’t provided citations to be ignored, just mentioned people and an organization, not what they said. I don’t recall the CDC ever saying we had met the numbers for herd immunity. Would love it if we had. The original CDC prediction iirc was 70% (though others varied as low as 60%**) and we still haven’t reached that. Delta changed things way before that goal line was in sight. 85% is what I usually see at this point. We are barely approaching 60%*** now for fully vaccinated and effectiveness may be dropping quicker than we are adding numbers now, though boosters may be enough to bring it back up, if people are willing to get them. **https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/herd-immunity ***https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/vaccine-tracker I personally would have very low confidence in a doctor who approached a new disease by refusing to change predictions or treatments as more was learned about it. That is not how science should be used or we would be using the same flu vaccine every year no matter what variants were prevalent, for example. added: I get there is a lot of frustration due to the inherent uncertainty a new disease brings and there has been massive missteps in public education as well as those who shouldn’t be assuming educational leadership in a medical crises acting like they are authorities and flooding us with false information. If anyone isn’t way past frustration now, they aren’t human. But it doesn’t help to criticize with vague or inaccurate complaints. We never know who we may be influencing in what is potentially a life and death situation for many. We have a duty imo to provide accurate information if we are committed to following the second commandment. Edited November 7, 2021 by Calm 3
pogi Posted November 7, 2021 Posted November 7, 2021 6 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: The reason for seatbelts are for the protection of the person wearing it... And yet they are mandated. Are you against seatbelt mandates for the same reasons you are against vaccine mandates? People made all the same arguments that you are making when seatbelts were mandated. 1
Tacenda Posted November 7, 2021 Posted November 7, 2021 3 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: I am not discouraging anyone from getting the vaccine, I got it some time ago. I did not need to be told to do so. I think every adult should get it, if they choose, and only if they choose. This is a personal problem affecting my children, nearly all don't want to be vaccinated. I only have one child that is pro-vaccination. Two of my children said they will quit their jobs if they have to get vaccinated. And after reading up on the exemptions, I don't think it will be that easy to get one, as I once thought. So I do see the problem for sure. I don't want my kids to quit their wonderful jobs over this. So I'm in between a rock and a hard place on this one.
The Nehor Posted November 7, 2021 Posted November 7, 2021 11 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: The reason for seatbelts are for the protection of the person wearing it, of course that may just be the cop in me writing. As for the Spanish Flu, some wore masks, but not all. Besides America has reached heard immunity. No, it has not. Not even close. Herd immunity is what you see with things like the measles where there are very rare local outbreaks but they are easily contained. We do not have around 1,000 people dying every day in this country from the measles. 1
The Nehor Posted November 7, 2021 Posted November 7, 2021 10 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: BTW, the COVID-19 vaccine which I and my family have received, it does nothing not keep anyone from getting it, or transmitting it. It only lessens the symptoms, and helps reduce the chances of hospitalization and death. People can still, and do get COVID-19, it is making the rounds in the White House Staff right now. General Colin Powell, was fully vaccinated and still caught the Delta Variant and died. My own daughter was hospitalized, and my wife and I contracted COVID “Again”! There is a lot of confusion surrounding this vaccine. Mandates are not the answer, and threats will only make people more opposed to receiving the vaccine. Wrong about transmission and infection. Vaccines have been shown to decrease transmission, particularly asymptomatic transmission. Actually mandates have been shown to increase vaccination. There have been scare articles about all kinds of government agencies having to shut down because people are going to resign rather than get vaccinated and when push comes to shove a very tiny percentage leave. The rest give in and get vaccinated. Mandates work.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 7, 2021 Posted November 7, 2021 Sorry, just got word of death in the family, I can’t (or won’t) be able to debate for a few days. I am losing so many who are dear to me lately, just too many! This death is hard to bare! 2
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 7, 2021 Posted November 7, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: Edited November 7, 2021 by Bill “Papa” Lee
Calm Posted November 7, 2021 Posted November 7, 2021 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: Sorry, just got word of death in the family, I can’t (or won’t) be able to debate for a few days. I am losing so many who are dear to me lately, just too many! This death is hard to bare! Take care, no problem. No need to respond to me. Edited November 7, 2021 by Calm
The Nehor Posted November 7, 2021 Posted November 7, 2021 7 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: Sorry, just got word of death in the family, I can’t (or won’t) be able to debate for a few days. I am losing so many who are dear to me lately, just too many! This death is hard to bare! Take care of yourself and the rest of your family. 1
ProphetShiloh Posted November 13, 2021 Posted November 13, 2021 On 9/10/2021 at 4:29 PM, bluebell said: I hate how the new notion of choice or agency is being divorced from consequences of choice. We are free to make our choices but we don’t get to choose the consequences of them. And sometimes we make choices with sucky consequences. That’s the way it is. I have reached the conclusion that the scriptural teaching about individual agency is inseparably connected with individual responsibility. In other words, no matter what anyone tells you, because we as Latter-day Saints are supposed to have our own personal indwelling of the Holy Spirit with us at all times, we are 100% responsible for whatever we do. So, even if the presiding quorums of the Church all agree and counsel the members to receive the COVID-19 vaccination, each member is still 100% responsible for whatever he does in the matter. They cannot expect to receive any sort of special protection beyond them actually getting correct revelation as to what they should do. It is abundantly clear that some people are not going to do well with the jab. There are many injuries that people sustain from it that are being buried by the mainstream media. The new technology they are using for this so-called vaccination is absolutely unproven and risky and nothing like the traditional concept of inoculation. The cells of the person who receive the jab are genetically enhanced to build the inoculating substance instead of having the inoculating substance injected. No matter what their intentions are, the government authorizes and protects the media to participate in propaganda against the best interests of the people to make their own informed consenting decisions. The Church membership should be very much opposed to this "legal lying" because it exposes people to real risks with no means of recourse. The people are being treated in a very disingenuous manner, at the least, by the government, media, and yes, even by the Church. Any LDS bishop should be willing to say that our religion promotes individual agency and that the agency of their members should be safeguarded by every means necessary. Even if the bishop himself got the jab, he should still stand up for the rights of his brothers and sisters to refuse to comply with such mandates if in their own conscience they believe that they should not take the jab. If the LDS faith has lost this concept, then it has lost its way to the celestial kingdom entirely and needs to be set back in order. While it is true that the Church is responsible to uphold and obey the laws of the land, it surely is under no obligation to betray its most core and fundamental principles to join in and be a cheerleader for its people to have their rights denied them by mandates. We are warned that the mark of the beast would be promulgated in the same manner. People wouldn't be able to participate in the economic systems of the time unless they have received the mark. I would not be the least bit surprised to find that the LDS Church is in need of major upheavals to impeach the current crop of leaders that appear to me to be in league with the globalists who are warring against our liberties. I believe that the LDS need to awaken to the awfulness of their situation.
pogi Posted November 13, 2021 Posted November 13, 2021 38 minutes ago, ProphetShiloh said: I have reached the conclusion that the scriptural teaching about individual agency is inseparably connected with individual responsibility. In other words, no matter what anyone tells you, because we as Latter-day Saints are supposed to have our own personal indwelling of the Holy Spirit with us at all times, we are 100% responsible for whatever we do. So, even if the presiding quorums of the Church all agree and counsel the members to receive the COVID-19 vaccination, each member is still 100% responsible for whatever he does in the matter. They cannot expect to receive any sort of special protection beyond them actually getting correct revelation as to what they should do. It is abundantly clear that some people are not going to do well with the jab. There are many injuries that people sustain from it that are being buried by the mainstream media. The new technology they are using for this so-called vaccination is absolutely unproven and risky and nothing like the traditional concept of inoculation. The cells of the person who receive the jab are genetically enhanced to build the inoculating substance instead of having the inoculating substance injected. No matter what their intentions are, the government authorizes and protects the media to participate in propaganda against the best interests of the people to make their own informed consenting decisions. The Church membership should be very much opposed to this "legal lying" because it exposes people to real risks with no means of recourse. The people are being treated in a very disingenuous manner, at the least, by the government, media, and yes, even by the Church. Any LDS bishop should be willing to say that our religion promotes individual agency and that the agency of their members should be safeguarded by every means necessary. Even if the bishop himself got the jab, he should still stand up for the rights of his brothers and sisters to refuse to comply with such mandates if in their own conscience they believe that they should not take the jab. If the LDS faith has lost this concept, then it has lost its way to the celestial kingdom entirely and needs to be set back in order. While it is true that the Church is responsible to uphold and obey the laws of the land, it surely is under no obligation to betray its most core and fundamental principles to join in and be a cheerleader for its people to have their rights denied them by mandates. We are warned that the mark of the beast would be promulgated in the same manner. People wouldn't be able to participate in the economic systems of the time unless they have received the mark. I would not be the least bit surprised to find that the LDS Church is in need of major upheavals to impeach the current crop of leaders that appear to me to be in league with the globalists who are warring against our liberties. I believe that the LDS need to awaken to the awfulness of their situation. Ok Snuffer! I just had a conversation with someone on these threads who thought people like you are rare in the church. What is your experience/opinion? 3
Tacenda Posted November 13, 2021 Posted November 13, 2021 1 hour ago, ProphetShiloh said: I have reached the conclusion that the scriptural teaching about individual agency is inseparably connected with individual responsibility. In other words, no matter what anyone tells you, because we as Latter-day Saints are supposed to have our own personal indwelling of the Holy Spirit with us at all times, we are 100% responsible for whatever we do. So, even if the presiding quorums of the Church all agree and counsel the members to receive the COVID-19 vaccination, each member is still 100% responsible for whatever he does in the matter. They cannot expect to receive any sort of special protection beyond them actually getting correct revelation as to what they should do. It is abundantly clear that some people are not going to do well with the jab. There are many injuries that people sustain from it that are being buried by the mainstream media. The new technology they are using for this so-called vaccination is absolutely unproven and risky and nothing like the traditional concept of inoculation. The cells of the person who receive the jab are genetically enhanced to build the inoculating substance instead of having the inoculating substance injected. No matter what their intentions are, the government authorizes and protects the media to participate in propaganda against the best interests of the people to make their own informed consenting decisions. The Church membership should be very much opposed to this "legal lying" because it exposes people to real risks with no means of recourse. The people are being treated in a very disingenuous manner, at the least, by the government, media, and yes, even by the Church. Any LDS bishop should be willing to say that our religion promotes individual agency and that the agency of their members should be safeguarded by every means necessary. Even if the bishop himself got the jab, he should still stand up for the rights of his brothers and sisters to refuse to comply with such mandates if in their own conscience they believe that they should not take the jab. If the LDS faith has lost this concept, then it has lost its way to the celestial kingdom entirely and needs to be set back in order. While it is true that the Church is responsible to uphold and obey the laws of the land, it surely is under no obligation to betray its most core and fundamental principles to join in and be a cheerleader for its people to have their rights denied them by mandates. We are warned that the mark of the beast would be promulgated in the same manner. People wouldn't be able to participate in the economic systems of the time unless they have received the mark. I would not be the least bit surprised to find that the LDS Church is in need of major upheavals to impeach the current crop of leaders that appear to me to be in league with the globalists who are warring against our liberties. I believe that the LDS need to awaken to the awfulness of their situation. Does Denver Snuffer ring a bell? Or Phil Davis?
webbles Posted November 13, 2021 Posted November 13, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, ProphetShiloh said: The new technology they are using for this so-called vaccination is absolutely unproven and risky and nothing like the traditional concept of inoculation. The cells of the person who receive the jab are genetically enhanced to build the inoculating substance instead of having the inoculating substance injected. The J&J vaccine uses the traditional method. It doesn't inject the COVID-19 virus but it injects a similar looking virus. So if people are scared of the new mRNA based vaccines, they should get the J&J vaccine. Also, the mRNA vaccine is not genetically enhancing a persons cells. mRNA is "messenger RNA" (that's what the m stands for). Our cells naturally create mRNA. We've known about mRNA since the 1960s so it isn't a new thing. Cells use mRNA to transfer the instructions in the DNA to areas outside of the nucleus. After the mRNA has left the nucleus and its instructions have been read, it degrades. mRNA only last up to a few days. So, the mRNA that is injected in the vaccine will be completely gone from a person's body within a few days. mRNA vaccines also aren't "unproven and risky". People have been trying to make it work since the 1980s. First human clinical trial of an mRNA vaccine was in the early 2000s. The biggest problem with getting a working mRNA vaccine is the fact that mRNA breaks down so easily. If you inject someone with raw mRNA, it will break down before it reaches the cells. Some of the early methods of preventing the mRNA from breaking down caused immune responses that would attack the vaccine and prevent the mRNA from reaching the cells. By the 2010s, though, they had worked out most of the issues and were able to reliably get the mRNA into cells. Edited November 13, 2021 by webbles 3
Tacenda Posted November 13, 2021 Posted November 13, 2021 7 minutes ago, webbles said: The J&J vaccine uses the traditional method. It doesn't inject the COVID-19 virus but it injects a similar looking virus. So if people are scared of the new mRNA based vaccines, they should get the J&J vaccine. Also, the mRNA vaccine is not genetically enhancing a persons cells. mRNA is "messenger RNA" (that's what the m stands for). Our cells naturally create mRNA. We've known about mRNA since the 1960s so it isn't a new thing. Cells use mRNA to transfer the instructions in the DNA to areas outside of the nucleus. After the mRNA has left the nucleus and its instructions have been read, it degrades. mRNA only last up to a few days. So, the mRNA that is injected in the vaccine will be completely gone from a person's body within a few days. mRNA vaccines also aren't "unproven and risky". People have been trying to make it work since the 1980s. First human clinical trial of an mRNA vaccine was in the early 2000s. The biggest problem with getting a working mRNA vaccine is the fact that mRNA breaks down so easily. If you inject someone with raw mRNA, it will break down before it reaches the cells. Some of the early methods of preventing the mRNA from breaking down caused immune responses that would attack the vaccine and prevent the mRNA from reaching the cells. By the 2010s, though, they had worked out most of the issues and were able to reliably get the mRNA into cells. So appreciate this post webbles, thanks.
Recommended Posts