Church Members in California Seeking "Religious Exemption" Forms for Vaccine, Church Saying "Nope."

[longview]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

What planet are you living on and do they have an opening I can squeeze into?

Do you understand the distinction between the two scenarios?

1- everybody gets the chance to line up at the starting line and run the race to the best of their abilities.

2- everybody has to reach the finish line at exactly the same time.

Guess which of the two Satan advocates?

I'm pretty sure you were at that Great Council where the two options were explained.  Number 1 is called equal opportunity.  The second is called equal outcome.

[sunstoned]

On 10/11/2021 at 11:54 AM, Ragerunner said:

Its kind of stunning to watch. I have so many family members and active friends in the church who have dug in so deep on this they are willing to die or kill other loved ones. That is how deep the rabbit hole has become.

They don’t care what the Prophet has said, they apparently don’t care how many friends and loved ones lay in the hospital, they even seem unmoved after attending Covid funerals. Their responses are usually one of the following:

Don’t judge me;

I don’t want to talk about it;

I don’t care what the prophet said, the spirit told me something different;

or it’s all a big plan by so and so, or government, or whatever. Which some how then justifies their actions.

Our bishop almost died from Covid recently (young guy). He even got up and told the ward how he was wrong for not heeding the prophet’s council and he hoped the rest of the ward will follow the prophet.

We still have about 80% with no mask, no social distancing in classes and I know a large percentage is also unvaccinated. We have see several members (including some in their 30s) die.

But hearts are so hardened on this they simply refuse to care. They are going to be ‘right’ no matter the cost.

I do think the brethren are at a lose on what to do at this point and how to help pull so many members back out of the rabbit hole.

These reactions were quite shocking to me also.  It's like looking the facts in the face and then saying no, I don't care.  Even after the prophet has spoken, there are still members who dug their heals in.  Maybe they are the real unruly children and lazy learners.

[Canadiandude]

9 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

These reactions were quite shocking to me also.  It's like looking the facts in the face and then saying no, I don't care.  Even after the prophet has spoken, there are still members who dug their heals in.  Maybe they are the real unruly children and lazy learners.

And I fear this is just the beginning…

[sunstoned]

11 minutes ago, Canadiandude said:

And I fear this is just the beginning…

This scares me.  

 

[The Nehor]

29 minutes ago, longview said:

Do you understand the distinction between the two scenarios?

1- everybody gets the chance to line up at the starting line and run the race to the best of their abilities.

2- everybody has to reach the finish line at exactly the same time.

Guess which of the two Satan advocates?

I'm pretty sure you were at that Great Council where the two options were explained.  Number 1 is called equal opportunity.  The second is called equal outcome.

I am challenging the truthfulness of statement #1 there. It is obviously and manifestly untrue. The idea that everyone lines up at the same starting line in this life is laughable when you compare circumstances.

Even if you want to try to argue that premortality explains all those differences you have God disagreeing:

Quote

 

And again I say unto you, let every man esteem his brother as himself.

For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there—and looketh upon his sons and saith I am just?

Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine.

 

So God is saying that He has many sons and all serve him obediently and some get nice things and others do not.

 

This whole idea of “equal outcomes” vs. “equal opportunity” is a farcical attempt to justify weird political idolatry by endowing it with God’s approval. It is disgusting.

[Calm]

41 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am challenging the truthfulness of statement #1 there. It is obviously and manifestly untrue. The idea that everyone lines up at the same starting line in this life is laughable when you compare circumstances.

Even if you want to try to argue that premortality explains all those differences you have God disagreeing:

So God is saying that He has many sons and all serve him obediently and some get nice things and others do not.

 

This whole idea of “equal outcomes” vs. “equal opportunity” is a farcical attempt to justify weird political idolatry by endowing it with God’s approval. It is disgusting.

The only way to justify “equal opportunities” imo is to have postmortality included in the ‘race course’, the winning line (judgment) is far after death and any lacks one had during mortality, such as no exposure to the gospel or huge health, educational, mental, emotional, or physical burdens are compensated by God so one is truly free to move or choose with full information about what those choices will mean. 
 

Otherwise, we might all start at the same line (birth) but some are being given nothing to carry during the race, some are given 5, 10, 25, 100, 250 or more pounds to shoulder and some are allowed to stop at water and snack stations to refuel while others get no support whatsoever. And some get tripped up or even pushed out of the race by others.
 

So the only equal thing about it is we all were born. 

I think a race analogy is very poor, especially as it is not a competition. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I think a race analogy is very poor, especially as it is not a competition. 

My favourite analogy:

Quote

8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

 

[ksfisher]

10 hours ago, longview said:

1- everybody gets the chance to line up at the starting line and run the race to the best of their abilities.

I don't understand this.  Countless people have been born with diminished mental abilities or debilitating physical problems.  How do these people get to "race to the best of their abilities?"  Countless people have had their lives cut short, some at a very young age, by the actions of others. 

edit to add: I see that reading further others have made the same point.

Edited October 14, 2021 by ksfisher

[ksfisher]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

I think a race analogy is very poor, especially as it is not a competition.

I believe the scriptures make the same point in Ecclesiastes 9:11

the race is not to the ^aswift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

[pogi]

On 10/12/2021 at 3:39 PM, ksfisher said:

How is this different, to you, than other vaccinations that are required for things like going to school?

I'm in favor of agency as well, but there are all kinds of limits placed on it by the government.  I can't shoot a gun wherever I want.  I can't drive a car as fast as I want.  These limits are placed on my agency to limit, or eliminate, harm that I could cause others.  Are vaccinations different?

I agree with you here.  I think the only difference with vaccines that does give me some pause is that vaccines are a medically invasive (minimally invasive) procedure that does pose at least some potential risk to the individual, unlike speed limit laws or fire arm restrictions, etc.  For that reason, I usually error on the side of informed consent (agency) when it comes to any medical procedures being done to our bodies.  This is honestly an issue I have wrestled with back and forth, but ultimately I do believe there are circumstances where government intervention with vaccine mandates is justified to protect the public.  There is historical precedent for it and it has been upheld as constitutional in the courts.   This public game of Russian roulette which has killed over 700,000 Americans and counting needs to stop.  We have to intervene to stop the hemorrhage.     Too many children are parentless because of it.  Too many families have lost loved ones.  Too many hospitals overrun.  Too much suffering. 

[longview]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

So the only equal thing about it is we all were born. 

Essentially my point.  Even then, the participants are not equal.  Cain and Abel were regarded as having high potential by their parents Adam and Eve.  Jacob and Esau were twins born of Rebekah and Isaac.  All the children were equally privileged and taught the same things but all had different outcomes.  Abel went on to his great reward in Heaven but Cain became perdition.  Jacob was accorded the birthright but Esau might still have opportunity to complete the "race" in tail end of his mortal life or make adjustments in the next world.

There was also a starting line in the pre-existence.  We were all intelligences before we became spirit children of Heavenly Parents.  At the start we were of varying levels of intelligence and abilities but we were all given equal opportunity for entering into the First Estate.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Abraham 3:26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
Abraham 3:28 And the second (Lucifer) was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

9 hours ago, Calm said:

I think a race analogy is very poor, especially as it is not a competition. 

Exactly.  I did not intend it to be about the "runner" trying to beat out the other participants.  It is our individual efforts during mortality where we try to learn the important lessons and experience all that our Father in Heaven will give us before we pass on to the next world.  Surely we will continue to make reconciliations there.

I agree with @Hamba Tuhan that it does not matter where we are in life.  We are all at different points of progression thru mortality.  We have our ups and down.  Apostle Paul wrote in Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

. . . "1- everybody gets the chance to line up at the starting line and run the race to the best of their abilities."

I am challenging the truthfulness of statement #1 there. It is obviously and manifestly untrue. The idea that everyone lines up at the same starting line in this life is laughable when you compare circumstances.

Even if you want to try to argue that premortality explains all those differences you have God disagreeing:

Your use of the scripture you quoted has a different context and is applicable elsewhere.

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So God is saying that He has many sons and all serve him obediently and some get nice things and others do not.

No.  Not my point.

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This whole idea of “equal outcomes” vs. “equal opportunity” is a farcical attempt to justify weird political idolatry by endowing it with God’s approval. It is disgusting.

Not intended to be political.  Even though I may have used the Soviet Union as an example earlier in this thread but it was to illustrate my points about the use of agency.  Please review my comments to Calm at the top of this post.

It is not idolatry to believe that Heavenly Father is giving EVERY one that is born into the world (Second Estate) equal opportunities for learning and progressing.  We all have different challenges and circumstances.  But God is over all and will continue to try us and to refine us (if we will let Him).

It is NOT weird.  You just need to quit over reacting.

[pogi]

23 minutes ago, longview said:

It is not idolatry to believe that Heavenly Father is giving EVERY one that is born into the world (Second Estate) equal opportunities for learning and progressing. 

Only from an eternal perspective is this true.  It certainly is not true in the context of mortality (second estate) though.

[ksfisher]

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think the only difference with vaccines that does give me some pause is that vaccines are a medically invasive (minimally invasive) procedure that does pose at least some potential risk to the individual, unlike speed limit laws or fire arm restrictions, etc. 

You're right here that those aren't the best comparisons. 

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

I usually error on the side of informed consent (agency) when it comes to any medical procedures being done to our bodies

When it comes down to it though, you have to trust the medical professional giving the advice.  I don't think I have the necessary education to judge whether or not a particular vaccine could pose more risk than benefits to me. 

21 minutes ago, pogi said:

ultimately I do believe there are circumstances where government intervention with vaccine mandates is justified to protect the public. 

I've had 4 children go through public schools.  We seemed to be constantly taking children to the doctor to get shots that were required for them to attend. 

I realize there is an opt out in many states, but I for one do not look back with fondness on the days of small pox, polio, measles, mumps, rubella, etc, etc, etc.

 

The one thing that did bug me was having to show that my children had seen a dentist.  That seems like government overreach.

[longview]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

Only from an eternal perspective is this true.  It certainly is not true in the context of mortality (second estate) though.

What do you think the purpose is of the Second Estate?  Isn't Earth intended to be an astonishing laboratory for us to experience mortality?  With the veil of forgetfulness over our minds?  Just so we can live our lives without the overwhelming glory of God in our memory?  Why would you separate the "context of mortality" from the PURPOSE of this creation and the subsequent fall?  I don't understand your "certainty" ?

[Calm]

6 hours ago, longview said:

All the children were equally privileged and taught the same things but all had different outcomes. 

How do you know?  In the case of Jacob and Esau, each were favored by a different parent. Maybe Jacob benefitted more from Rebekah’s interest than Esau Isaac because she was more hands on. 

added:  in my own family, the younger kids were able to receive more monetary benefits while Mom was more available for fun stuff for the older kids before her health took a big hit.  We were also ‘taught’ differently because different examples were set because circumstances had changed, parents had mellowed a bit as they learned how to parent…much more relaxed with the last than the first.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Calm

[pogi]

2 hours ago, longview said:

What do you think the purpose is of the Second Estate?  Isn't Earth intended to be an astonishing laboratory for us to experience mortality?  With the veil of forgetfulness over our minds?  Just so we can live our lives without the overwhelming glory of God in our memory?  Why would you separate the "context of mortality" from the PURPOSE of this creation and the subsequent fall?  I don't understand your "certainty" ?

These questions are not related to what I was objecting to, which is this: 

Quote

 Heavenly Father is giving EVERY one that is born into the world (Second Estate) equal opportunities for learning and progressing.

If it is true that the greatest opportunity for learning and progressing in mortality exists in the principles and ordinances of the gospel available only to those who are baptized and confirmed members of the church and receive the gift of the holy ghost (the greatest tool available for learning and progression), then it cannot also be true that "equal opportunities for learning and progressing" exist in mortality for all of God's children.  It is only true in the eternal perspective via proxy work. 

Opportunities for learning and progressing are manifestly not equal in the context of mortality alone.  If a child dies on day 2 of life, how do they have equal opportunity for learning and progressing in mortality as someone who lives to be 115?   

Edited October 14, 2021 by pogi

[Canadiandude]

13 hours ago, sunstoned said:

This scares me.  

 

It should. 

[Tacenda]

14 hours ago, Canadiandude said:

And I fear this is just the beginning…

The division is so deep, my kids most likely want to disown me, and me them, sometimes. It's weird. ETA: I would never disown them, dumb saying really, but it's certainly a ticking time bomb when we air our differences.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Tacenda

[longview]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

How do you know?  In the case of Jacob and Esau, each were favored by a different parent. Maybe Jacob benefitted more from Rebekah’s interest than Esau Isaac because she was more hands on. 

Yes.  Jacob probably spent a great deal of time being a homebody and helping Rebekah with many of her chores.  Whereas Esau was a rough and tumble macho guy who went many days out in the wilderness hunting and carousing with hard people.  The point is the brothers were more alike in the early tender years but they diverged away from each as they got older.

[pogi]

31 minutes ago, longview said:

Yes.  Jacob probably spent a great deal of time being a homebody and helping Rebekah with many of her chores.  Whereas Esau was a rough and tumble macho guy who went many days out in the wilderness hunting and carousing with hard people.  The point is the brothers were more alike in the early tender years but they diverged away from each as they got older.

What if Jacob and Esau had a brother that died 2 days after he was born.  How can you posit that all people have "equal opportunity for learning and progression" in mortality?  Again, it only makes sense in an eternal perspective.  Life (mortality) is not an equal opportunity condition. 

[nuclearfuels]

On 10/12/2021 at 11:42 AM, mfbukowski said:

But one could not follow that "law" without agency. 

Perfect obedience was Satan 's plan

Yes. Correct. 100%

 

[nuclearfuels]

14 hours ago, Canadiandude said:

15 hours ago, sunstoned said:

These reactions were quite shocking to me also.  It's like looking the facts in the face and then saying no, I don't care.  Even after the prophet has spoken, there are still members who dug their heals in.  Maybe they are the real unruly children and lazy learners.

And I fear this is just the beginning…

I am officially the real unruly child and lazy learner.

Feels so good to finally get that off my chest

[longview]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Opportunities for learning and progressing are manifestly not equal in the context of mortality alone.  If a child dies on day 2 of life, how do they have equal opportunity for learning and progressing in mortality as someone who lives to be 115? 

It does not matter.  The vast majority of people born into the world do not learn of the Gospel.  But God is still involved in providing blessings for every person (regardless of their "membership" status).  God will continually influence everybody.  Some will become better people as a result but others will continue to degrade to the point of becoming deaf to the whisperings of the spirit.

We are given different tests.  Some are born with deformed body parts.  Others are born into chaos, into boredom, opulent lifestyles, stark poverty, what have you.  Maybe there was something lacking or underdeveloped in the pre-existence that would cause God to place the spirit child into a particular circumstance so he will get the benefit.  God is over all.  Everything He does has a purpose.  Every person born into mortality will learn in a deeply meaningful way from his own experiences.  Everything that happens is useful to BOTH God and to every person.  All will be reviewed and supplemented if needed in the next world.  What seems tragic to you is what is necessary for carrying out the Plan of Happiness (in the long run).

The point is we are given tremendous blessings in coming to mortality (equal opportunity for learning and experiencing).  It is NOT so with Satan's plan (forcing everybody to have the same result).  Outcome based equality results in EQUAL MISERY.

[nuclearfuels]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

On 10/12/2021 at 5:39 PM, ksfisher said:

How is this different, to you, than other vaccinations that are required for things like going to school?

I'm in favor of agency as well, but there are all kinds of limits placed on it by the government.  I can't shoot a gun wherever I want.  I can't drive a car as fast as I want.  These limits are placed on my agency to limit, or eliminate, harm that I could cause others.  Are vaccinations different?

No. Vaccines are not different. Experimental vaccines are not different. Hastily approved non-experimental vaccines are also no different.

[nuclearfuels]

1 minute ago, longview said:

The point is we are given tremendous blessings in coming to mortality (equal opportunity for learning and experiencing).  It is NOT so with Satan's plan (forcing everybody to have the same result).  Outcome based equality results in EQUAL MISERY.

100% agree