Church Members in California Seeking "Religious Exemption" Forms for Vaccine, Church Saying "Nope."

[pogi]

1 hour ago, longview said:

It does not matter. 

How does it not matter?  

Give me specifics.  How does a child who died at 2 days old  have equal opportunities for learning and progressing in mortality as someone who lived a full life?

I am not getting it.   Are you equating the blessing of receiving a physical body with "equal opportunity for learning and progression"?  Because it is not the same.  That baby didn't have equal opportunity to learn and progress in that physical body and experience mortality as someone who lived a full life.  

1 hour ago, longview said:

But God is still involved in providing blessings for every person (regardless of their "membership" status).  God will continually influence everybody.  Some will become better people as a result but others will continue to degrade to the point of becoming deaf to the whisperings of the spirit.

Are you suggesting that there is no benefit to receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost in terms of "learning", "progression", and "experiencing" in mortality?  If there is no benefit, then why bother?  If God is going to influence us all equally and bless us al equally with opportunities for learning, progression, and experiencing with or without the "gift" then what's the point of the gift? 

Edited October 14, 2021 by pogi

[Tacenda]

I like this comment from my sister in law on FB:

"Today I got my booster and my flu shot by choice. So I'm reposting this. This is NOT directed at anyone in particular so don’t get offended. I didn't write this but I wish more people would share and would protect themselves and their loved ones if they choose.

I'm vaccinated and, no, I don't know what's in it - neither this vaccine, the ones I had as a child, nor in the Popeye's chicken sandwich, hot dogs, chicken nuggets, or in smoked sausages, or in other treatments…whether it's for cancer, AIDS, the one for polyarthritis, or vaccines for infants or children. I trust my doctor when they say it’s needed.

I also don't know what's in Ibuprofen, Tylenol, or other meds, it just cures my headaches & my pains ...

I don't know what's in the ink for tattoos, cigars, or every ingredient in my soap or shampoo or even deodorants. I don’t know the long term effect of cell phone use or whether or not that restaurant I just ate at REALLY used clean foods and washed their hands.

In short ...

There's a lot of things I don't know and never will…

I just know one thing: life is short, very short, and I still want to do something other than just going to work every day or staying locked in my home. I still want to travel and hug people without fear and find a little feeling of life "before".

As a child and as an adult I've been vaccinated for mumps, measles, rubella, polio, chicken pox, and quite a few others; my parents and I trusted the science and never had to suffer through or transmit any of said diseases ... just saying.

You are not vaccinated, I respect your choice,

I am vaccinated, respect my choice ...

I'm vaccinated, not to please the government but:

* To NOT die from Covid-19.

* To NOT kill others.

* To NOT clutter a hospital bed if I get sick.

* To NOT take a hospital bed for others who need it.

* To give me peace of mind.

* To hug my loved ones

* To Not have to do PCR or antigenic tests to go out dancing, go to a restaurant, go on holidays and many more things to come ...

* To live my life.

* For Covid-19 to be an old memory.

* To protect myself.

* To protect us."

 

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, longview said:

We are given different tests.

Then it can’t be truly equal opportunity in mortality…

[bOObOO]

3 hours ago, longview said:

It does not matter.  The vast majority of people born into the world do not learn of the Gospel.  But God is still involved in providing blessings for every person (regardless of their "membership" status).  God will continually influence everybody.  Some will become better people as a result but others will continue to degrade to the point of becoming deaf to the whisperings of the spirit.

We are given different tests.  Some are born with deformed body parts.  Others are born into chaos, into boredom, opulent lifestyles, stark poverty, what have you.  Maybe there was something lacking or underdeveloped in the pre-existence that would cause God to place the spirit child into a particular circumstance so he will get the benefit.  God is over all.  Everything He does has a purpose.  Every person born into mortality will learn in a deeply meaningful way from his own experiences.  Everything that happens is useful to BOTH God and to every person.  All will be reviewed and supplemented if needed in the next world.  What seems tragic to you is what is necessary for carrying out the Plan of Happiness (in the long run).

The point is we are given tremendous blessings in coming to mortality (equal opportunity for learning and experiencing).  It is NOT so with Satan's plan (forcing everybody to have the same result).  Outcome based equality results in EQUAL MISERY.

I think I agree with your main point but some of what you are saying sounds weird.  Yes, God our Father and Jesus our Savior will work with and provide each of us with every opportunity to learn what we need to learn to become as they are, some sooner and some later than others, but to say we get equal treatment is not exactly correct.  Some of us don't need some experiences to learn the same lesson as others.  Some need lots of repetitious teachings before they will finally get the point and accept it, while some others need to hear something only once and then, BOOM!, they just suddenly get it!  We are all different so our needs are different for what it takes to learn something. Jesus is our perfect example.  He didn't need to sin even once to know that to sin is stupid.  Some others on this planet still don't seem to get it, but each of us will be provided with an opportunity to learn what we need to learn if we want to become like our Father and Jesus.  And we also have the option to become like Satan if we want to.

Edited October 14, 2021 by bOObOO

[pogi]

3 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

No. Vaccines are not different. Experimental vaccines are not different. Hastily approved non-experimental vaccines are also no different.

I don't even understand what you are saying.   The question was this:

Quote

How is this different, to you, than other vaccinations that are required for things like going to school?

I'm in favor of agency as well, but there are all kinds of limits placed on it by the government.  I can't shoot a gun wherever I want.  I can't drive a car as fast as I want.  These limits are placed on my agency to limit, or eliminate, harm that I could cause others.  Are vaccinations different?

Are you saying that you agree that mandating the covid vaccine is no different from having a speed limit?  I know how you feel about the covid vaccine so your answer is confusing to me, unless you are suggesting that speed limits should not be mandated either.  Are you an extreme libertarian or something?  Anarchist?  If not, at what point is it justified to limit personal liberties to protect the public?  Is there a number?  How many must die?  How severe must the threat be?  How many people have to be victimized by drunk driving before we take away peoples personal liberty to drink and drive?  How many people need to overdose and die on fentanyl before we regulate personal liberties to protect the public?  Or, does the argument "my body, my choice" apply to fentanyl too?

Edited October 14, 2021 by pogi

[longview]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I am not getting it.   Are you equating the blessing of receiving a physical body with "equal opportunity for learning and progression"?  Because it is not the same.  That baby didn't have equal opportunity to learn and progress in that physical body and experience mortality as someone who lived a full life. 

I have already stated that Earth is a fantastic laboratory with its plentiful array of experiences and challenges.  No doubt everyone will get more than his quota (several times over).  It should be obvious that lives will vary tremendously.  Sufficient for God to make a thorough assessment (and to convince the "student" of his successes and/or shortcomings).  The 2 day old baby has NOT lost anything.  The child will obtain what is needed in the next world (maybe he was already super-qualified in the pre-existence).

23 minutes ago, Calm said:

Then it can’t be truly equal opportunity in mortality…

I have already stated that different people will be given different tests.  College students do NOT need to take the exact same courses.  Some experiences are needed for certain people but NOT for everybody.  All in all, everybody benefits.  If you think everybody has to have exactly the same experiences, then you would fall into Satan's trap.  It is equal opportunities in the sense of being free to learn what needed for the individual.  This is NOT cookie cutter socialism where ONE size fits all.

[pogi]

32 minutes ago, longview said:

The 2 day old baby has NOT lost anything.  The child will obtain what is needed in the next world (maybe he was already super-qualified in the pre-existence).

This proves my point.  It only makes sense in an eternal perspective ("next world") and not in the context of earthly mortality only. 

 

[longview]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

This proves my point.  It only makes sense in an eternal perspective ("next world") and not in the context of earthly mortality only. 

 

Not quite.  The earthly mortal experience is a VERY necessary and crucial lynchpin of the Plan of Happiness.  You should NOT de-emphasize the importance of going thru the Second Estate.  Spirit children were thrilled when they were presented at the Grand Council - - - Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

[bOObOO]

27 minutes ago, longview said:

Not quite.  The earthly mortal experience is a VERY necessary and crucial lynchpin of the Plan of Happiness.  You should NOT de-emphasize the importance of going thru the Second Estate.  Spirit children were thrilled when they were presented at the Grand Council - - - Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Right, and considering this 7,000 year mortal probation period is coupled with all of the time we spent in heaven before we came here, this is plenty of time to determine if we really want to be like our Father and Jesus.  Most of us don't even need Hell.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, longview said:

Not quite.  

Ok, we are not connecting somehow.  You just said that the child who days young will not have the same mortal opportunities for learning as others, but that they will have them in the "next life".  How is that equal opportunity in mortality? 

1 hour ago, longview said:

Not quite.  The earthly mortal experience is a VERY necessary and crucial lynchpin of the Plan of Happiness.  You should NOT de-emphasize the importance of going thru the Second Estate.  Spirit children were thrilled when they were presented at the Grand Council - - - Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying if you think I am de-emphasizing the second estate.  Getting a body is critical and is equal opportunity for all.  Learning and progression opportunities are not guaranteed and are by no means equal in mortality.  As you say, for the child who dies young, they will receive those opportunities only in "the next life". 

[longview]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Ok, we are not connecting somehow.  You just said that the child who days young will not have the same mortal opportunities for learning as others, but that they will have them in the "next life".  How is that equal opportunity in mortality? 

Apparently you are not quite grasping the analogy of college students in earlier my posts.  Also, some spirits were quite advanced in the pre-existence and do not need the heavy-duty earth experiences.  God is the arbiter and will ALWAYS provide.  You need to trust God with all the prerequisites and the work that may continue in the next world.  The concept still holds, it IS necessary for all of us to have freedom of opportunity.  And, yes, it still is equality of opportunity.  You are just ****ering on the details.  Do not fret, my boy.

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, longview said:

Do not fret, my boy.

There is trusting God and there is trusting your interpretation of how God works.

Not the same thing.

I am at peace with how God wants to do stuff.  I trust him.  Not fretting here and I am guessing neither is Pogi from how he described what he understands the doctrine to be.

You, not so much trust.

[longview]

38 minutes ago, Calm said:

You, not so much trust.

My points are honed by half a century of steady scripture reading and meditations.  Of course I cannot speak for you or the church.  I feel pretty solid about what I have presented.  I am sure all of us will continue to grow in the Gospel and come closer to Christ.  Bless you!

[pogi]

14 hours ago, longview said:

Apparently you are not quite grasping the analogy of college students in earlier my posts.  Also, some spirits were quite advanced in the pre-existence and do not need the heavy-duty earth experiences.  God is the arbiter and will ALWAYS provide.  You need to trust God with all the prerequisites and the work that may continue in the next world.  The concept still holds, it IS necessary for all of us to have freedom of opportunity.  And, yes, it still is equality of opportunity.  You are just ****ering on the details.  Do not fret, my boy.

I agree with the bolded part.  Again, your position relies on the work and learning that will continue in the next world.  The next world will be the great equalizer of opportunity.

In regard to the college student analogy, it is not that I don't grasp it, it's just that I think it misses the point.  The fact is that we will not all receive all the needed learning, progression, and ordinances needed for exaltation in mortality.  Some will receive far more opportunities for ordinances, learning, and progression towards exaltation in mortality than others.  Others will not have the same opportunities for advancement, learning, and progression in mortality.  That is why the plan of salvation is so beautiful, because it includes the post mortal world which acts as the great equalizer.  We will ultimately have the same opportunities, but not necessarily in mortality.  

We will all receive what is needed in mortality to advance to the next life and continue in learning and progression there, but that learning will not necessarily be afforded to all in mortality.  We will all die with differing opportunities for advancement in spirituality towards exaltation.  It will all be made equal, fair, and balanced via the spirit world.  It simply is not necessary for exaltation that we all receive the same opportunities in mortality. 

For example, some will have the opportunity to have their calling and election made sure in mortality.  Other indigenous people in the Amazon will not be offered the same opportunity in mortality and will have to wait to advance to the same degree of learning, progress, and experience in the next world.  

Can you provide any scriptures or revelations that say that we will all have equal opportunity for learning and progression in mortality, without taking into account what will happen in the next world?    

 

 

[longview]

24 minutes ago, pogi said:

In regard to the college student analogy, it is not that I don't grasp it, it's just that I think it misses the point.  The fact is that we will not all receive all the needed learning, progression, and ordinances needed for exaltation in mortality.  Some will receive far more opportunities for ordinances, learning, and progression towards exaltation in mortality than others.  Others will not have the same opportunities for advancement, learning, and progression in mortality.

The experiences we get in mortality do not always involve religious or churchy things.  Such as learning how to socialize with family and friends, improving skills in conflict resolution, multiplying the talents in any of the non-religious fields, etc.  There is a huge myriad of things that will strengthen the person.  They are just as useful for God to assess quality and goodness of each individual.  Which can exceed the attributes we had in the pre-existence.  These qualities will be an important addition to when judgment/resurrection occurs.

35 minutes ago, pogi said:

We will all receive what is needed in mortality to advance to the next life and continue in learning and progression there, but that learning will not necessarily be afforded to all in mortality.

Most do not have opportunities for learning the Gospel, participating in charitable service, making covenants, obtaining ordinances, etc.  But they will still have gained many important qualities and attributes as a result of enduring the challenges of mortality.

43 minutes ago, pogi said:

It will all be made equal, fair, and balanced via the spirit world.  It simply is not necessary for exaltation that we all receive the same opportunities in mortality.

Agree.

44 minutes ago, pogi said:

Other indigenous people in the Amazon will not be offered the same opportunity in mortality and will have to wait to advance to the same degree of learning, progress, and experience in the next world.

Maybe we should not rule out the possibility of a single extraordinary person who has a powerful instinct for being selfless and showing kindness to others.  Who is able to feel strongly the impressions of the spirit and to act ever more consistently in acting on the promptings.  This could occur deep in the remote jungles?

49 minutes ago, pogi said:

Can you provide any scriptures or revelations that say that we will all have equal opportunity for learning and progression in mortality, without taking into account what will happen in the next world?

Not at all my contention.  Everything is inter-related:  before the First Estate, Second Estate, Spirit Paradise/Prison, Resurrection, future assignments, etc.  I still say that the very point of entering into the Second Estate was an "Equal Opportunity  Event" (the actual starting line).  The enormous variations in the conditions of mortality do NOT take away this idea of a starting point.  We are not forced to accept a pre-determined outcome at the end (Lucifer's proposal which would have made everyone equally miserable).

[nuclearfuels]

21 hours ago, pogi said:

I don't even understand what you are saying. 

I noticed. 

Dont' worry. 

It'll pass

[nuclearfuels]

21 hours ago, longview said:

If you think everybody has to have exactly the same experiences, then you would fall into Satan's trap.  It is equal opportunities in the sense of being free to learn what needed for the individual.  This is NOT cookie cutter socialism where ONE size fits all.

But...but...but...the public are too stupid to know what to do. Surely we must help coerce them into the best decision we've come up with.

[pogi]

3 hours ago, longview said:

The experiences we get in mortality do not always involve religious or churchy things.  Such as learning how to socialize with family and friends, improving skills in conflict resolution, multiplying the talents in any of the non-religious fields, etc.  There is a huge myriad of things that will strengthen the person.  They are just as useful for God to assess quality and goodness of each individual.  Which can exceed the attributes we had in the pre-existence.  These qualities will be an important addition to when judgment/resurrection occurs.

You keep proving my point.  I agree with you.  Not all will be afforded those opportunities of socialization and experience with family and friends, improving skills in conflict resolution, multiplying in talents, etc. in mortality either.  Some will die in their first day of life.  Be it physical, emotional, spiritual...whatever.  The opportunities are not equal in mortality.

3 hours ago, longview said:

Most do not have opportunities for learning the Gospel, participating in charitable service, making covenants, obtaining ordinances, etc.  But they will still have gained many important qualities and attributes as a result of enduring the challenges of mortality.

  I agree.  But those are not equal opportunities.  Some will have opportunities to advance much farther in mortality in every way.  It's not a race though.  We will all have equal opportunity in the next life.  Eternity is a long time. 

3 hours ago, longview said:

Maybe we should not rule out the possibility of a single extraordinary person who has a powerful instinct for being selfless and showing kindness to others.  Who is able to feel strongly the impressions of the spirit and to act ever more consistently in acting on the promptings.  This could occur deep in the remote jungles?

They can improve in the light of Christ, but there are limitations to the light of Christ - hence the gift of the spirit. They are not equal.  They are both required for improved learning and progression.  

3 hours ago, longview said:

Not at all my contention.  Everything is inter-related:  before the First Estate, Second Estate, Spirit Paradise/Prison, Resurrection, future assignments, etc.  I still say that the very point of entering into the Second Estate was an "Equal Opportunity  Event" (the actual starting line).  The enormous variations in the conditions of mortality do NOT take away this idea of a starting point.  We are not forced to accept a pre-determined outcome at the end (Lucifer's proposal which would have made everyone equally miserable).

If you accept that the second estate is the starting point and that equal opportunity is impossible without the next world, then we are saying the same thing.  

[longview]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

If you accept that the second estate is the starting point and that equal opportunity is impossible without the next world, then we are saying the same thing.

Ok.  The fact remains that entry into the Second Estate is an "Equal Opportunity Event" (the starting line).  To take the college analogy further:  people who are interested in continuing with their education after high school have "equal opportunity" to enroll in the college of their choice; after that point they choose different courses, specialize in their field of interest, and so on.  There is a dizzying array of options.

[The Nehor]

On 10/14/2021 at 10:11 AM, longview said:

Your use of the scripture you quoted has a different context and is applicable elsewhere.

No.  Not my point.

Not intended to be political.  Even though I may have used the Soviet Union as an example earlier in this thread but it was to illustrate my points about the use of agency.  Please review my comments to Calm at the top of this post.

It is not idolatry to believe that Heavenly Father is giving EVERY one that is born into the world (Second Estate) equal opportunities for learning and progressing.  We all have different challenges and circumstances.  But God is over all and will continue to try us and to refine us (if we will let Him).

It is NOT weird.  You just need to quit over reacting.

It is not necessarily idolatry. I just suspect it is true in your case. It is just manifestly false to claim that everyone born into the world gets equal opportunities for learning and progressing. Saying that God is over all and will try and refine all may be true but it does not change that the earlier statement is false.

I will quote overreacting when you stop being wrong. So when you are exalted and I am cast into Outer Darkness presumably. Then you will know I was right on this point. Feel free to bring a drop of water over to assuage my torment. Or you can send Lazarus. Anyone will do.

[The Nehor]

On 10/12/2021 at 10:42 AM, mfbukowski said:

Perfect obedience was Satan 's plan

Showing that the only person who ever lived on this earth who followed Satan’s plan perfectly was the Savior Jesus Christ.

[The Nehor]

On 10/14/2021 at 2:09 PM, longview said:

The point is we are given tremendous blessings in coming to mortality (equal opportunity for learning and experiencing).  It is NOT so with Satan's plan (forcing everybody to have the same result).  Outcome based equality results in EQUAL MISERY.

So all those who become joint-heirs with Christ and get the exact same outcome despite the differences in how faithfully they lived or how much they sinner on Earth will all be equally miserable.

The atonement was a mistake as it sought to equalize the outcome of mortality at the highest level. Atonement = communism!!!!!!!!!!

[The Nehor]

On 10/15/2021 at 9:38 PM, longview said:

Ok.  The fact remains that entry into the Second Estate is an "Equal Opportunity Event" (the starting line).  To take the college analogy further:  people who are interested in continuing with their education after high school have "equal opportunity" to enroll in the college of their choice; after that point they choose different courses, specialize in their field of interest, and so on.  There is a dizzying array of options.

Now the person who dies super young chose that option? The person born with fetal alcohol syndrome is just picking options? Billions lived during the great apostasy where the most important optional course in the universe was shut down. The analogy doesn’t work.

[The Nehor]

On 10/15/2021 at 3:22 PM, nuclearfuels said:

But...but...but...the public are too stupid to know what to do.

Yes.

On 10/15/2021 at 3:22 PM, nuclearfuels said:

Surely we must help coerce them into the best decision we've come up with.

The proven one that saves lives? Yes.

[Tacenda]

I do think mandating those with 100 or more employees to get vaccinated or tested weekly might be forcing those that would consider it, go against. Worried, especially since it could affect so many businesses that are life or death situations such as the police departments, airlines, and hospitals.