Popular Post Anonymous Mormon Posted February 13, 2020 Popular Post Posted February 13, 2020 (edited) I am looking for advice on how to improve my relationship with and testimony of Jesus Christ. I would like to come to know Christ in such that I could powerfully testify that He lives and that his Atonement can carry us through tough times. I would like to increase my faith in him. Although not commonly phrased this way in the church culture, I would like to have a 'Personal Relationship with Jesus Christ.' As a bit of background, I have been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ my entire life. I often feel the Holy Ghost (a guiding voice and/or warmth inside me) testify to me of things when I pray (whether it be the Book of Mormon, or what to do in life, etc.). I have felt forgiveness when I have sinned and understand that this forgiveness comes because of Christ and his Atonement. I believe in God and pray to him to guide me - I have a firm testimony of a loving God. I also have a firm testimony of the Holy Ghost. I also love the teachings of Christ and try to live my life by them (i.e., love one another, forgiveness, etc.). And when I have prayed to have a testimony of Christ I have felt the spirit some, though it's pretty minor not huge or overwhelming or major. But I feel like I am missing a deeper testimony of Jesus Christ. For example, when reading about Christ in the Bible or Book of Mormon I don't 'feel' Him deeply, instead it's usually an intellectual exercise, like I am reading a fiction plot, as opposed to a feeling of reverence or awe that he is my Lord. I don't feel Christ when praying because prayer doesn't revolve around Christ: I pray to Heavenly Father and am answered by the HG, but Christ plays no immediate part I can feel in this process, except maybe giving Grace so God can even listen (I really wish we prayed to Jesus sometimes). I honestly have a hard time seeing Christ as more than a historical figure at times. And I never feel too much more towards him. Also, I have a really hard time in feeling the power of the Atonement beyond just being grateful I am forgiven. We are given all kinds of promises that Christ can carry us in times of need and although I feel God's love and the Holy Ghost guide me in times of need, I am not sure how to know/feel Christ or the Atonement is at the center of this. So my question is two fold: 1) What have others done to form a more personal relationship with the Savior? How have you come to know him in your life? 2) How have others successfully applied the atonement of Christ to carry them through hard times? How do you feel Christ and the Atonement (beyond just knowing that you are forgiven) working in your life? Note: I am looking for sincere answers from anyone who feels Christ in their life, regardless of their feelings towards or activity or membership in the church (Christ is the Lord of all after all). However, I am not interested in this thread devolving into negativity about the church being not true or Christ being not real - if this is your belief, I'd prefer to now have it clog up the thread and you can please start your own thread on that topic. Thanks to all in advance! I hope to learn a lot from the conversation. Edited February 13, 2020 by Anonymous Mormon typo :) 5
Duncan Posted February 13, 2020 Posted February 13, 2020 There's this talk from then Elder James E. Faust https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1976/10/a-personal-relationship-with-the-savior?lang=eng 1
pogi Posted February 14, 2020 Posted February 14, 2020 Good topic! I have some things to share but it will have to wait a little.
CV75 Posted February 14, 2020 Posted February 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Anonymous Mormon said: I am looking for advice on how to improve my relationship with and testimony of Jesus Christ. I recommend accepting the various invitations extended by President Nelson over the past 2-3 years to various audiences and widely published. For example, the Topical Guide exercise, reading the Book of Mormon, pondering the Restoration in Preparation for next General Conference, etc. It works! Follow any personal promptings to study a Gospel topic in-depth, keeping Christ at the center of your motivation. 2
Ahab Posted February 14, 2020 Posted February 14, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Anonymous Mormon said: So my question is two fold: 1) What have others done to form a more personal relationship with the Savior? How have you come to know him in your life?[/quote] Understanding his role helps me a lot. He is our Mediator with our Father so when we pray to our Father we are able to access our Father only because of Jesus Christ. Without him as our Mediator we wouldn't be able to connect to our Father. Same with the Holy Ghost. Without Jesus we wouldn't feel the influence of the Holy Ghost. All of their work is done in his name. And yes I do mean that includes the work of our Father. Because Jesus is our Mediator with our Father and without Jesus we wouldn't feel our Father's influence. Oh, did I say that already. I think it is worth repeating. Essentially our whole relationship with our Father is dependent on our Savior, since we are now in a fallen state, so even though our Father was our Father in heaven we can't know that and wouldn't even have thought of it unless Jesus helped us to see and understand it. So you can give all of the credit to Jesus because there is no other name whereby man may be saved except through the name and the power of Jesus Christ and all of the work he has done on behalf of our Father and us to bring us together again. Quote 2) How have others successfully applied the atonement of Christ to carry them through hard times? How do you feel Christ and the Atonement (beyond just knowing that you are forgiven) working in your life? How do I feel it? Through the power of the Holy Ghost, in the name of Jesus Christ. By connecting to our Father, in the name of Jesus Christ. I think that answers those questions. Edited February 14, 2020 by Ahab 1
let’s roll Posted February 14, 2020 Posted February 14, 2020 Here are three things (there are many others) I’ve done which have helped me focus my worship of the Savior and helped me better know Him and feel of His love. 1. Focus on the words of the Savior (the NT is my favorite)...I find visualization helpful. Think of yourself as being there when the words were spoken...I ask the questions that Jesus was asked as if I was there and was posing the questions to Him, and do so in a way that the questions really are mine, with a sincere desire to have the Savior answer the question for me (e.g. “what lack I yet”). I ponder what comes into my mind and heart before I read His response in the scriptures. When I do read His response, I do so as if He is speaking directly to me. 2. I Consciously thank Him for His love and sacrifice each time I take the sacrament. As you point out, we don’t pray to the Savior, but my experience has been that one way for me to make sure that I “always remember Him” is to “stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me.” Deep and poignant feelings about the Savior often follow. I take Him at His word when He says, come unto me and I will give you rest...the three items listed here are a few ways I make the effort to come unto Him. I’m constantly pondering other ways I can do so and acting on impressions I receive when I do so. 3. My experience has been that the Savior multiplies more than loaves and fishes. I have had countless instances where in response to my focused and specific plea for Him to multiply my offering, be it a desire to forgive, a willingness to serve, a desire for clarity of purpose, He has done so. Each experience is different, as sometimes the loaves and fishes He requires takes some time to discern, but every experience, and each step within each experience, has strengthened my bond with the Savior. A final invitation is to think of the process as art, not science...focus on formulas and checklist is far less likely to result in communion with the Christ than is sincere love, gratitude and genuine discipleship. Godspeed to you. 1
The Nehor Posted February 14, 2020 Posted February 14, 2020 (edited) Obedience, which encompasses almost everything everyone else said. Edited February 14, 2020 by The Nehor 1
Boanerges Posted February 14, 2020 Posted February 14, 2020 My recommendation is to feast upon the words of Christ, particularly the four gospels (where the words of Christ actually are). Study the words and actions, look at different translations and really try to figure out what he was doing and why. That's what worked for me. 2
Bernard Gui Posted February 14, 2020 Posted February 14, 2020 (edited) 17 hours ago, Anonymous Mormon said: I am looking for advice on how to improve my relationship with and testimony of Jesus Christ. I would like to come to know Christ in such that I could powerfully testify that He lives and that his Atonement can carry us through tough times. I would like to increase my faith in him. Although not commonly phrased this way in the church culture, I would like to have a 'Personal Relationship with Jesus Christ.' As a bit of background, I have been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ my entire life. I often feel the Holy Ghost (a guiding voice and/or warmth inside me) testify to me of things when I pray (whether it be the Book of Mormon, or what to do in life, etc.). I have felt forgiveness when I have sinned and understand that this forgiveness comes because of Christ and his Atonement. I believe in God and pray to him to guide me - I have a firm testimony of a loving God. I also have a firm testimony of the Holy Ghost. I also love the teachings of Christ and try to live my life by them (i.e., love one another, forgiveness, etc.). And when I have prayed to have a testimony of Christ I have felt the spirit some, though it's pretty minor not huge or overwhelming or major. But I feel like I am missing a deeper testimony of Jesus Christ. For example, when reading about Christ in the Bible or Book of Mormon I don't 'feel' Him deeply, instead it's usually an intellectual exercise, like I am reading a fiction plot, as opposed to a feeling of reverence or awe that he is my Lord. I don't feel Christ when praying because prayer doesn't revolve around Christ: I pray to Heavenly Father and am answered by the HG, but Christ plays no immediate part I can feel in this process, except maybe giving Grace so God can even listen (I really wish we prayed to Jesus sometimes). I honestly have a hard time seeing Christ as more than a historical figure at times. And I never feel too much more towards him. Also, I have a really hard time in feeling the power of the Atonement beyond just being grateful I am forgiven. We are given all kinds of promises that Christ can carry us in times of need and although I feel God's love and the Holy Ghost guide me in times of need, I am not sure how to know/feel Christ or the Atonement is at the center of this. So my question is two fold: 1) What have others done to form a more personal relationship with the Savior? How have you come to know him in your life? 2) How have others successfully applied the atonement of Christ to carry them through hard times? How do you feel Christ and the Atonement (beyond just knowing that you are forgiven) working in your life? Note: I am looking for sincere answers from anyone who feels Christ in their life, regardless of their feelings towards or activity or membership in the church (Christ is the Lord of all after all). However, I am not interested in this thread devolving into negativity about the church being not true or Christ being not real - if this is your belief, I'd prefer to now have it clog up the thread and you can please start your own thread on that topic. Thanks to all in advance! I hope to learn a lot from the conversation. I think the key is in the sacrament prayer. We take his name on us, we always remember him, and we keep his commandments. That makes it personal for me. Edited February 14, 2020 by Bernard Gui 1
BlueDreams Posted February 14, 2020 Posted February 14, 2020 These are great questions and a great pursuit. Personally i can relate to having a more theoretical appreciation of Christ before it became a more personal thin. Part of that i feel was tied to the need if experiencing His walk and then His walk with me. The first you can find plenty in scriptures the second you can’t...not fully at least On the first I’d ponder about his traits and who he was. Sometimes that was more his characteristics (compassion, Charity for example) and what that enabled him to do. Some times that was his role (several of the TG sections on Jesus cover those). This gave me an appreciation for him and also helped me to see how his traits and roles bless us and are even gifts for us to receive from him and his atonement. So it became more clear how me acting in a gift that i’ve received or developing faith or learning something new was a gift and a journey that i had with Christ. The second is not necessarily scriptural. It entails taking what was learned and experiencing such with your life. It’s personal and deeply so...so I don’t think it’s something you can necessarily replicate by hearing my journey in it and repeating. For me it took years of following the promptings, wrestling, and working with God through struggles and uncertainty and other things. It also entailed to some extent being brought down and remade a few times. But at the end(ish...i’m not dead or translated obviously) I remember reading one of my favorite verses of scriptures about christ and realizing he knew me, had walked with me this entire time, and because i stuck with him in a very strange journey i now knew him. Good luck on your own journey! With luv, BD 4
hope_for_things Posted February 14, 2020 Posted February 14, 2020 18 hours ago, Anonymous Mormon said: I am looking for advice on how to improve my relationship with and testimony of Jesus Christ. I would like to come to know Christ in such that I could powerfully testify that He lives and that his Atonement can carry us through tough times. I would like to increase my faith in him. Although not commonly phrased this way in the church culture, I would like to have a 'Personal Relationship with Jesus Christ.' As a bit of background, I have been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ my entire life. I often feel the Holy Ghost (a guiding voice and/or warmth inside me) testify to me of things when I pray (whether it be the Book of Mormon, or what to do in life, etc.). I have felt forgiveness when I have sinned and understand that this forgiveness comes because of Christ and his Atonement. I believe in God and pray to him to guide me - I have a firm testimony of a loving God. I also have a firm testimony of the Holy Ghost. I also love the teachings of Christ and try to live my life by them (i.e., love one another, forgiveness, etc.). And when I have prayed to have a testimony of Christ I have felt the spirit some, though it's pretty minor not huge or overwhelming or major. But I feel like I am missing a deeper testimony of Jesus Christ. For example, when reading about Christ in the Bible or Book of Mormon I don't 'feel' Him deeply, instead it's usually an intellectual exercise, like I am reading a fiction plot, as opposed to a feeling of reverence or awe that he is my Lord. I don't feel Christ when praying because prayer doesn't revolve around Christ: I pray to Heavenly Father and am answered by the HG, but Christ plays no immediate part I can feel in this process, except maybe giving Grace so God can even listen (I really wish we prayed to Jesus sometimes). I honestly have a hard time seeing Christ as more than a historical figure at times. And I never feel too much more towards him. Also, I have a really hard time in feeling the power of the Atonement beyond just being grateful I am forgiven. We are given all kinds of promises that Christ can carry us in times of need and although I feel God's love and the Holy Ghost guide me in times of need, I am not sure how to know/feel Christ or the Atonement is at the center of this. So my question is two fold: 1) What have others done to form a more personal relationship with the Savior? How have you come to know him in your life? 2) How have others successfully applied the atonement of Christ to carry them through hard times? How do you feel Christ and the Atonement (beyond just knowing that you are forgiven) working in your life? Note: I am looking for sincere answers from anyone who feels Christ in their life, regardless of their feelings towards or activity or membership in the church (Christ is the Lord of all after all). However, I am not interested in this thread devolving into negativity about the church being not true or Christ being not real - if this is your belief, I'd prefer to now have it clog up the thread and you can please start your own thread on that topic. Thanks to all in advance! I hope to learn a lot from the conversation. I think we'd likely have quite different beliefs from a theology perspective, but I have a couple recommendations that have worked well for me in recent years. I like to think of Christ as separate from the person Jesus. Jesus is the man who lived on earth who's life is narrated to us through the gospels and who could relate to you or I on a very personal level as he experienced life and had human experiences. I like to think of Christ as the ultimate ideal that embodies all of the traits that I find inspirational about gospel message. The ideas of love, sacrifice, service, humility, strength, faith, compassion, mercy, fairness, empathy, forgiveness. These are central attributes that I find exemplify the gospel message and I like to think of them as the attributes of Christ. But I like to keep the person Jesus as separate in my mind from the attributes of the divine or attributes of the Christ consciousness. 2
pogi Posted February 14, 2020 Posted February 14, 2020 (edited) On 2/13/2020 at 4:00 PM, Anonymous Mormon said: But I feel like I am missing a deeper testimony of Jesus Christ. For example, when reading about Christ in the Bible or Book of Mormon I don't 'feel' Him deeply, instead it's usually an intellectual exercise, like I am reading a fiction plot, as opposed to a feeling of reverence or awe that he is my Lord. I don't feel Christ when praying because prayer doesn't revolve around Christ: I pray to Heavenly Father and am answered by the HG, but Christ plays no immediate part I can feel in this process, except maybe giving Grace so God can even listen (I really wish we prayed to Jesus sometimes). I honestly have a hard time seeing Christ as more than a historical figure at times. And I never feel too much more towards him. It sounds like you don't feel like you have a deep relationship with Christ because there is no intimacy or immediate role that you recognize in your life with him, like you have with the Father through prayer. Is that accurate? I can certainly understand why one might feel that way. I think if you were to shift your perspective ever so slightly, you might find that he has been with you all along, and it will allow you to recognize and appreciate his direct role/influence in your life more. I would suggest a careful study of the following teachings and consider how his influence plays a role in your day-to-day life. http://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Quotes/Light of Christ.htm Christ is omnipresent via this light. Understanding that, it helps us to experience Christ on a very intimate level. He resides in your heart. He is in the creation. He is in nature that you interact with every day. He is the power, the beauty, and the light that gives life to all things. He is the gentle guiding voice of your conscience. You probably interact with Christ more intimately than any other member of the Godhead on a daily basis. The trick is to always be mindful of that. Recognition and gratitude of these things will change your experiences in life and your relationship with the Lord. When you feel the warmth of the sun on your cheek, you can know that Christ is in it smiling down at you. Sometimes the most cliche things like that can be soil for the most profound experiences if we let it. The other way you can see and interact with Christ is found in Matthew 25:40 - "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." That scripture proves that recognizing our relationship with Christ is simply a matter of shifting our perspective. Christ told these people that they had been serving him all of these years and didn't even recognize it. Seeing Christ in our fellowmen, and serving them, will enhance your relationship and intimacy with Christ perhaps more than anything else. I'm not suggesting that you don't do that already, but sometimes we are like the people in this scripture and don't recognize, or even think to look for Christ in the things that we do. Edited February 14, 2020 by pogi 2
mfbukowski Posted February 15, 2020 Posted February 15, 2020 On 2/14/2020 at 9:54 AM, hope_for_things said: I think we'd likely have quite different beliefs from a theology perspective, but I have a couple recommendations that have worked well for me in recent years. I like to think of Christ as separate from the person Jesus. Jesus is the man who lived on earth who's life is narrated to us through the gospels and who could relate to you or I on a very personal level as he experienced life and had human experiences. I like to think of Christ as the ultimate ideal that embodies all of the traits that I find inspirational about gospel message. The ideas of love, sacrifice, service, humility, strength, faith, compassion, mercy, fairness, empathy, forgiveness. These are central attributes that I find exemplify the gospel message and I like to think of them as the attributes of Christ. But I like to keep the person Jesus as separate in my mind from the attributes of the divine or attributes of the Christ consciousness. I get that totally, but I mentally unify the two and assimilate the personal human and the divine being into the human person with whom I communicate daily through "the spirit" I see the human as the potential for divinity, and not separate. I am trying to BECOME that being who speaks to me through feelings in my heart. Some might call that person my "unconscious projection of the Ideal"but I don't really see any distinction. My goal is to bring that human Divinity within me to fruition, with The Christ as my personal Teacher and example. Could be the same thing you're saying I don't know.
katherine the great Posted February 15, 2020 Posted February 15, 2020 I think it depends so much on the individual‘s personality. One of the most profound experiences I had was watching Franco Zeffirelli‘s “Jesus of Nazareth” miniseries. My mom (very staunch LDS) didn’t like it because there was some non LDS interpretation such as Mary Magdalene being a prostitute but I didn’t care. I thought the performance of Robert Powell was so beautiful and the way he interacted with the people, it sort of set the stage for me to envision him as a real person trying to carry out his mission. It helped me to read the gospels in a very personal way. Just my 2 cents. 😊 3
Rain Posted February 15, 2020 Posted February 15, 2020 On 2/13/2020 at 4:00 PM, Anonymous Mormon said: I am looking for advice on how to improve my relationship with and testimony of Jesus Christ. I would like to come to know Christ in such that I could powerfully testify that He lives and that his Atonement can carry us through tough times. I would like to increase my faith in him. Although not commonly phrased this way in the church culture, I would like to have a 'Personal Relationship with Jesus Christ.' As a bit of background, I have been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ my entire life. I often feel the Holy Ghost (a guiding voice and/or warmth inside me) testify to me of things when I pray (whether it be the Book of Mormon, or what to do in life, etc.). I have felt forgiveness when I have sinned and understand that this forgiveness comes because of Christ and his Atonement. I believe in God and pray to him to guide me - I have a firm testimony of a loving God. I also have a firm testimony of the Holy Ghost. I also love the teachings of Christ and try to live my life by them (i.e., love one another, forgiveness, etc.). And when I have prayed to have a testimony of Christ I have felt the spirit some, though it's pretty minor not huge or overwhelming or major. But I feel like I am missing a deeper testimony of Jesus Christ. For example, when reading about Christ in the Bible or Book of Mormon I don't 'feel' Him deeply, instead it's usually an intellectual exercise, like I am reading a fiction plot, as opposed to a feeling of reverence or awe that he is my Lord. I don't feel Christ when praying because prayer doesn't revolve around Christ: I pray to Heavenly Father and am answered by the HG, but Christ plays no immediate part I can feel in this process, except maybe giving Grace so God can even listen (I really wish we prayed to Jesus sometimes). I honestly have a hard time seeing Christ as more than a historical figure at times. And I never feel too much more towards him. I too struggle with this. I know Heavenly father loves me. I FEEL he loves me. I feel his guidance. My testimony of him i strong. I feel those whisperings of the Spirit. I've seen them in action. I know all the basic doctrines of Christ. I just don't "get" them and I don't feel him. It is a huge struggle for me. On 2/13/2020 at 4:00 PM, Anonymous Mormon said: Also, I have a really hard time in feeling the power of the Atonement beyond just being grateful I am forgiven. We are given all kinds of promises that Christ can carry us in times of need and although I feel God's love and the Holy Ghost guide me in times of need, I am not sure how to know/feel Christ or the Atonement is at the center of this. So my question is two fold: 1) What have others done to form a more personal relationship with the Savior? How have you come to know him in your life? The thing I am doing now is "walking" with him. I made a google sheet that has the places he was, my best estimates using the internet where those places are and the distances between them. Then I read those passages while in the middle of that. Not actually during walking, but around it some time. Some things may only be a mile apart and others 70 so it may take weeks for me to get through one section. Unfortunately I found an glaring eorror so I am in the process of trying to read through it more carefully and updating my sheet as I do it. And right now I'm not really feeling it either, but I'm not sure if it is the work I have put towards the reading part of it, the part about correcting the error or what. Hopefully something will work out with it. On 2/13/2020 at 4:00 PM, Anonymous Mormon said: 2) How have others successfully applied the atonement of Christ to carry them through hard times? How do you feel Christ and the Atonement (beyond just knowing that you are forgiven) working in your life? I've actually only ever specifically done this once. I was in great emotional pain and one night I was in the shower just sobbing and I wondered just how Christ could deal with it all when I couldn't really deal with my own stuff. And honestly, it didn't really help me. So I'm sorry not to be able to give you an answer. On 2/13/2020 at 4:00 PM, Anonymous Mormon said: Note: I am looking for sincere answers from anyone who feels Christ in their life, regardless of their feelings towards or activity or membership in the church (Christ is the Lord of all after all). However, I am not interested in this thread devolving into negativity about the church being not true or Christ being not real - if this is your belief, I'd prefer to now have it clog up the thread and you can please start your own thread on that topic. Thanks to all in advance! I hope to learn a lot from the conversation. I am really considering working through 21 Days Closer to Christ when I get done with the walk to see if it helps me any. 2
Arelius Posted February 16, 2020 Posted February 16, 2020 I would start here: https://www.amazon.com/Second-Comforter-Conversing-Lord-Through/dp/0974015873/ref=sr_1_4?Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.x=0&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.y=0&qid=1581811296&refinements=p_27%3Adenver+snuffer&s=books&sr=1-4&unfiltered=1 https://www.learnofchrist.org/ http://www.zionsreturn.org/ http://scriptures.info/scriptures/tc/glossary https://areturning.wordpress.com/2017/12/06/how-fast-things-change/#more-3319
mfbukowski Posted February 16, 2020 Posted February 16, 2020 7 minutes ago, Arelius said: I would start here: https://www.amazon.com/Second-Comforter-Conversing-Lord-Through/dp/0974015873/ref=sr_1_4?Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.x=0&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.y=0&qid=1581811296&refinements=p_27%3Adenver+snuffer&s=books&sr=1-4&unfiltered=1 https://www.learnofchrist.org/ http://www.zionsreturn.org/ http://scriptures.info/scriptures/tc/glossary https://areturning.wordpress.com/2017/12/06/how-fast-things-change/#more-3319 Ah, Snuffer, hey? How does he know and what draws you in that direction? 1
Bernard Gui Posted February 16, 2020 Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) Does anyone recall the name of the BYU religion teacher that got into it with Elder McConkie over the “special relationship” thing during the Jesus Movement? Seems like he may have prevailed? [Edit] Ah yes... https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie/relationship-lord/ and https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_Did_Bruce_R._McConkie_discourage_people_from_attempting_to_form_a_"personal_relationship"_with_Christ%3F Edited February 16, 2020 by Bernard Gui 1
Rain Posted February 16, 2020 Posted February 16, 2020 4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Does anyone recall the name of the BYU religion teacher that got into it with Elder McConkie over the “special relationship” thing during the Jesus Movement? Seems like he may have prevailed? [Edit] Ah yes... https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie/relationship-lord/ and https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_Did_Bruce_R._McConkie_discourage_people_from_attempting_to_form_a_"personal_relationship"_with_Christ%3F What is your short summary of what he was saying as it applies to this topic?
Tacenda Posted February 16, 2020 Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Does anyone recall the name of the BYU religion teacher that got into it with Elder McConkie over the “special relationship” thing during the Jesus Movement? Seems like he may have prevailed? [Edit] Ah yes... https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie/relationship-lord/ and https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_Did_Bruce_R._McConkie_discourage_people_from_attempting_to_form_a_"personal_relationship"_with_Christ%3F What do you mean he may have prevailed? You didn't include who the BYU religion teacher was or how he prevailed, would you mind cluing me in on this? I remember seeing this talk by Elder McConkie and I wasn't happy. It was at the crux of my faith crisis and I was wanting a personal relationship with Jesus, maybe I was listening to some EV's at the time, or starting to figure out where I stood with that relationship. Because it felt like for years in my faith walk in the church I hadn't really been taught to have a relationship really, maybe I was taught that I need to know Him and all. Now I've curtailed my thoughts on this and now just feel like it's strange a little bit to see how people gush over Jesus constantly and wear their crosses. But then I think maybe I'm missing something? And they actually would put Jesus above their family etc. They are walking the talking. I'm afraid I am not that good, I guess. ETA: I do put God/Jesus at the head, but I wonder if I could give them up totally for the Lord? Hopefully I'm never asked to. Edited February 16, 2020 by Tacenda
Calm Posted February 16, 2020 Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, Arelius said: I would start here: https://www.amazon.com/Second-Comforter-Conversing-Lord-Through/dp/0974015873/ref=sr_1_4?Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.x=0&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.y=0&qid=1581811296&refinements=p_27%3Adenver+snuffer&s=books&sr=1-4&unfiltered=1 https://www.learnofchrist.org/ http://www.zionsreturn.org/ http://scriptures.info/scriptures/tc/glossary https://areturning.wordpress.com/2017/12/06/how-fast-things-change/#more-3319 Just FYI, author in first link has been excommunicated for apostasy. Second link appears to be Snuffer's own. Third link is done by members of the movement Snuffer started: Quote We believe Denver Snuffer is first and foremost a teacher, called and authorized by God to declare repentance and the word of the Lord in our day. Denver has written and spoken extensively about the Gospel of Jesus Christ and labored to preserve the religion that Joseph Smith was only beginning to restore before he was martyred. We do not worship, fawn over, or follow Denver. It is idolatry to follow anyone but Jesus Christ, for only He can save. However, we do recognize in Denver's words an authentic message from Heaven and the voice of the Lord. We believe Denver's testimony, that, similar to Joseph Smith, he has stood in the presence of the Lord and has been called by Him to declare His word. Denver considers us as his equals, and we consider ourselves as his equal; laboring together in the vineyard for the souls of men, pursuing the welfare of Zion, and pointing all toward Christ, who is the only source of salvation. This website merely serves as an introduction or springboard to the message that Denver has been sharing for many years (he has not been involved in its development). We recommend that you read the words that Denver has written and spoken to determine whether you hear the voice of Christ in what he has taught for yourself (see here and here). The fourth is a link to the revised scriptures of the group, which include 22 revelations claimed by Snuffer. The last link is an attempt to refute Richard Turley and Dallin H. Oaks' discussion and rejection of certain of Snuffer and others' teachings, which if I understand correctly was presented by them as the claim it is necessary to see Christ in mortality to receive exaltation. So all in all, a useful collection of Snuffer and his group. Edited February 16, 2020 by Calm
Calm Posted February 16, 2020 Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: What do you mean he may have prevailed? You didn't include who the BYU religion teacher was or how he prevailed, would you mind cluing me in on this? George Pace. He was a very, very popular teacher of religion when I was at BYU. I didn't like him. Too much conversation for amount of historical and other info given imo. I didn't take him, but sat in on my fiancé's class. https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/george-w-pace/developing-personal-relationship-savior/ My understanding is it wasn't so much his stuff that was problematic, but what some students were doing taking it to the extreme and viewing themselves as special spiritually because of it. It is also reported by Pace's son that Pace was not given the chance to explain his position or warned about the talk that appeared to be condemning his work before it occurred. Even if I didn't care for him, he was sincere and may have been unnecessarily hurt by how the correction was done. He offered a formal apology and withdrew the book, though it was later republished with revisions apparently. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Pace Quote In 1982, Bruce R. McConkie, an apostle in the LDS Church, presented a televised sermon at BYU that was interpreted as an attack on Pace's book, What It Means to Know Christ.[12] In his sermon, McConkie did not mention Pace or his book by name,[13] though he excerpted a quote which he called "plain sectarian nonsense", and warned against developing a special spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ, apart from the Holy Ghost and God the Father. McConkie felt this was a "gospel hobby" that could lead to "an unwholesome holier-than-thou attitude" or "despondence". McConkie said he didn't intend to "downgrade" Jesus, but to teach true doctrine and warn his audience.[14] McConkie later claimed he wasn't singling out or specifically thinking of Pace, but was warning against a general trend of "extreme behavior" of born-again type experiences.[15] Edited February 16, 2020 by Calm
mfbukowski Posted February 16, 2020 Posted February 16, 2020 8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Does anyone recall the name of the BYU religion teacher that got into it with Elder McConkie over the “special relationship” thing during the Jesus Movement? Seems like he may have prevailed? [Edit] Ah yes... https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie/relationship-lord/ and https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_Did_Bruce_R._McConkie_discourage_people_from_attempting_to_form_a_"personal_relationship"_with_Christ%3F I remember that talk from 2 years after my baptism, and then I read "Mormon Doctrine" I never read McConkie after that.
Calm Posted February 16, 2020 Posted February 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I remember that talk from 2 years after my baptism, and then I read "Mormon Doctrine" I never read McConkie after that. Not even his talks?
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