RichYoungRuler Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 13 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Right. You know what I have done. How? So the promises we make in the sacrament are meaningless and void? Thanks for the help. I repeat, why is this any of your business? Are you Evangelical? Calvinist? I used to be a commandment keeper. Thought I was on the right path, doing everything I needed to do since my youth. Then I met Jesus Christ and HE showed me that I wasn't really quite a perfect as I thought I was. In fact, I nowhere even close. All I can tell you, if you want a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, then He has good news for anyone willing to admit they cannot possibly keep the commandments.
Tacenda Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: I used to be a commandment keeper. Thought I was on the right path, doing everything I needed to do since my youth. Then I met Jesus Christ and HE showed me that I wasn't really quite a perfect as I thought I was. In fact, I nowhere even close. All I can tell you, if you want a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, then He has good news for anyone willing to admit they cannot possibly keep the commandments. This is just what this thread needs, I've been trying to explain this kind of relationship that I've seen on some website's shows or radio stations of non LDS Christians. You guys seem to have a pretty close tie, and speak of Him often in your daily walk. Like He is your whole world, actually. But sometimes, I wonder if it goes too far or not for some people out there. Maybe not walking the talk, or like some might think, a way to get away with what you want and sin, since Jesus is there to save no matter what. Please straighten me out if I've said something untrue. Edited February 20, 2020 by Tacenda
bluebell Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 1 minute ago, RichYoungRuler said: I used to be a commandment keeper. Thought I was on the right path, doing everything I needed to do since my youth. Then I met Jesus Christ and HE showed me that I wasn't really quite a perfect as I thought I was. In fact, I nowhere even close. All I can tell you, if you want a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, then He has good news for anyone willing to admit they cannot possibly keep the commandments. Christ doesn't require that we keep the commandments perfectly (though certainly we are all capable of keeping a lot of them--it's not hard for most of us not to murder someone, for example). He requires that we have faith in Him, repent of our sins, and sincerely desire and try to keep His commandments for all of our lives. 2
Bernard Gui Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: I used to be a commandment keeper. Thought I was on the right path, doing everything I needed to do since my youth. Then I met Jesus Christ and HE showed me that I wasn't really quite a perfect as I thought I was. In fact, I nowhere even close. All I can tell you, if you want a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, then He has good news for anyone willing to admit they cannot possibly keep the commandments. Congratulations. Why are you not answering my questions? Are you LDS? Why is this your business? Are you Evangelical? How do you know what my relationship is? Edited February 20, 2020 by Bernard Gui
let’s roll Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 On 2/18/2020 at 1:39 PM, RichYoungRuler said: Many have sincere desire to have a closer relationship with the Savior. Perhaps the answer isn't found in what you can do for Him, but what He has already done for you? Or perhaps He will ask us to do something...like sell all our possessions, give the proceeds to the poor and follow Him, or some other invitation to address what we still lack if we are sincere in our desire to follow Him. 1
Tacenda Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 4 minutes ago, let’s roll said: Or perhaps He will ask us to do something...like sell all our possessions, give the proceeds to the poor and follow Him, or some other invitation to address what we still lack if we are sincere in our desire to follow Him. That is a very good example of what most of us will not do!
RichYoungRuler Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 37 minutes ago, Tacenda said: This is just what this thread needs, I've been trying to explain this kind of relationship that I've seen on some website's shows or radio stations of non LDS Christians. You guys seem to have a pretty close tie, and speak of Him often in your daily walk. Like He is your whole world, actually. But sometimes, I wonder if it goes too far or not for some people out there. Maybe not walking the talk, or like some might think, a way to get away with what you want and sin, since Jesus is there to save no matter what. Please straighten me out if I've said something untrue. Think you pretty much nailed it. Can you really go too far with someone who revealed the truth about your predicament and saved you from certain death? You can't help but become instantly passionate and enthusiastic about that person. Like ex-governor Blagojevich becoming a "trumpocrat" instantly because he was once in bondage, but he is now set free because of grace. Should I continue in sin because of this new freedom and because His grace abounds? God forbid.
RichYoungRuler Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 49 minutes ago, bluebell said: Christ doesn't require that we keep the commandments perfectly (though certainly we are all capable of keeping a lot of them--it's not hard for most of us not to murder someone, for example). He requires that we have faith in Him, repent of our sins, and sincerely desire and try to keep His commandments for all of our lives. Didn't Christ command perfection in His own words? Matthew 5:48 "aBe ye therefore bperfect, even as your cFather which is in heaven is dperfect." Think about what you are saying. Think about what your church teaches. LDS "repentance" means that you "Maintain an unyielding, permanent resolve that you will never repeat the transgression." Want a relationship with Jesus Christ? Realize you need a Savior because you cannot ever even come close to meeting the requirement.
RichYoungRuler Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 52 minutes ago, let’s roll said: Or perhaps He will ask us to do something...like sell all our possessions, give the proceeds to the poor and follow Him, or some other invitation to address what we still lack if we are sincere in our desire to follow Him. He showed me that I'm not nearly as perfect or worthy as I thought I was and I needed a Savior, not a self-improvement coach.
Bernard Gui Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 21 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: He showed me that I'm not nearly as perfect or worthy as I thought I was and I needed a Savior, not a self-improvement coach. How was this shown to you?
Ahab Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: No, not necessarily like those. Don’t you think such revelations from the Father are through means of the Holy Spirit? Yes, and I think that was through the Holy Ghost, too. When our Lord told Peter that he was blessed by what our Father had told him that didn't necessarily mean our Father gave Peter that message directly. I believe he did it through the power of the Holy Ghost. I believe our Father doesn't talk to us anymore at all, now that we are in our fallen condition, except through the Holy Ghost and when he tells us to hear what he has to say through his son, our Lord, who is our Mediator with our Father.
Ahab Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 12 hours ago, mfbukowski said: ... causing then, huge errors in logic. Sometimes, yes. Considering how fallible our language is, with words that have multiple definitions and people from different backgrounds who sometime speak or write with figures of speech, I think it's amazing when we do actually understand each other. But agreeing with each other is like this whole other thing, though. We can understand each other and still not agree. And we can think someone agrees with us when we think they understand us when we assume things we should not assume. Isn't this the kind of thing you talk about when you talk about how it is all a matter or interpretation? That there is no truth, only interpretation? And you expect people to understand what you mean when you say things like that? Oh well. We just have to try to make due with whatever we have to work with and I think it's better to try to communicate our ideas with each other than to just ignore people or say we don't want to talk to people anymore.
pogi Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, RichYoungRuler said: "Maintain an unyielding, permanent resolve that you will never repeat the transgression." Aren't you basically saying the same thing here? 2 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said: Should I continue in sin because of this new freedom and because His grace abounds? God forbid. 1 hour ago, RichYoungRuler said: He showed me that I'm not nearly as perfect or worthy as I thought I was and I needed a Savior, not a self-improvement coach. Why do you make these things mutually exclusive? Christ is both a Savior and a teacher (self-improvement coach) in-one. Do you not believe that he wants us to improve, and that it is in our best interest to improve? Edited February 20, 2020 by pogi 2
Ahab Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said: All I can tell you, it is impossible for you or anyone to have a relationship with Jesus Christ with this as your requirement. Please allow me to explain: If "We do sin on occasions", then you haven't "repented" because (LDS) "repentance" REQUIRES the abandonment of sin. D&C 58:43 "By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will aconfess them and bforsake them." Because you have not forsaken sin, all of your former sins have returned: D&C 82:7 "And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any asin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the bformer sins return, saith the Lord your God." You don't need a "Personal relationship with Jesus Christ". You need to realize that because you can't keep the commandments, you need a Savior. Our Savior requires us to repent from our sins, even if we sin again after we have repented. He wants us to work at overcoming our sins, and our desire to sin, so that eventually we do not sin anymore. Otherwise we would just keep on sinning without even trying to stop and he wouldn't like that at all. I once believed as you do, that since I sinned again after I repented that it didn't really matter that I had repented before But that time interval between not sinning and sinning again did help me to gradually get to the point that I was able to stop sinning entirely, or at least I haven't sinned those same sins since then, a long long time ago. I no longer lust after women with pretty naked bodies, who I am not married to, as I did when I was younger, and the thought of doing that now is actually abhorrent to me. I have no desire to do that at all and if I saw a pretty woman who wasn't my wife running around naked then my desire would be to get her some clothes to put on, helping to clothe the naked. And I have overcome a lot of other sins, too, no longer doing those things at all. Or at least so far. I think maybe sometimes it is like recovering from alcoholism or smoking, that maybe if I went back to my old sins that I would maybe get entangled n them again and have to start the whole process over, otherwise never repenting from those sins. But we can overcome all of our sins, eventually, and that is the point of repentance. To stop doing things we should not do so that eventually we do get to the point where we do not sin anymore. Your solution is, what? To keep on sinning since you haven't stopped sinning yet? Not a good option, it seems to me. You'll never get any better that way and our Lord does want to help you to make your life as good as it can possibly be. Edited February 20, 2020 by Ahab
bluebell Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 17 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Okay so then that is the way I believe we should talk to each other. We should not tell other people that we are right while they are wrong. That is offensive and does not help the discussion one bit. Because ultimately it is a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. If we agree to disagree then so be it, and then go on rejoicing as you say. As you are saying we should always restrict our discussions to what we THINK the answer is, simply out of politeness if nothing else. Good points. I think it's also probably important to note that when it comes to spiritual experiences, there is no way to 'show someone' what you are experiencing like Ahab suggests we do with different colors. We kind of have to take their word for it. 1
bluebell Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 53 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: Didn't Christ command perfection in His own words? Matthew 5:48 "aBe ye therefore bperfect, even as your cFather which is in heaven is dperfect." Think about what you are saying. Think about what your church teaches. LDS "repentance" means that you "Maintain an unyielding, permanent resolve that you will never repeat the transgression." Want a relationship with Jesus Christ? Realize you need a Savior because you cannot ever even come close to meeting the requirement. You're fun. I love it when people assume that the only reason you don't agree with them is because you just haven't thought about it enough. But....no. That's not what I'm saying and it's not what my church teaches. 1
Ahab Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 12 minutes ago, bluebell said: Good points. I think it's also probably important to note that when it comes to spiritual experiences, there is no way to 'show someone' what you are experiencing like Ahab suggests we do with different colors. We kind of have to take their word for it. No we don't. We can decide that it's better to not argue about things people tell us when we do not believe them or agree with them, but we don't have to just take their word for whatever they're saying as if whatever they are saying is true. Why would you even suggest doing something like that? Taking people's word for whatever they say? Would that make it all true? Where would it end? No, I think talking things out is always the best option. Be nice and polite but yes do let people know when you do not believe them, and why, and then maybe eventually they will say something that at least sounds reasonable to you.
pogi Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said: All I can tell you, if you want a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, then He has good news for anyone willing to admit they cannot possibly keep the commandments. That is incorrect. Are you suggesting that we don't have agency? The only thing we need to "admit" is that we sinned, and not that it was impossible not too. That just sounds like a weak excuse - "the devil made me do it....I had no choice". How can one be accountable for something that he has no control over? One needs to humbly acknowledged that they chose to disobey. That is how you receive forgiveness- by acknowledging accountability and remorse for your choices. You have been given agency and no one is forcing you to sin against your will. We can overcome sin through Christ. It is possible. Perfection may not happen in this life-time, but if we don't start now, it will never happen. Progression - it is a worthy goal. Quote There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. (1 Corinth 10:13) Edited February 20, 2020 by pogi
let’s roll Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 1 hour ago, RichYoungRuler said: He showed me that I'm not nearly as perfect or worthy as I thought I was and I needed a Savior, not a self-improvement coach. If you’re willing to share, what was His response when you inquired of Him, “what lack I yet?” and how have you chosen to act on His response?
Rain Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 So with all this I'm having some thoughts. If I see Father's words to me in letters as my example showed, then where is on place I can find letters from Jesus? Well, if he created the earth...then what if while I was walking I looked at the sunset, trees, pebbles as his letters to me. Will it change anything? Guess I will see...
MiserereNobis Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 1 minute ago, Rain said: Well, if he created the earth...then what if while I was walking I looked at the sunset, trees, pebbles as his letters to me. Reminds me of Walt Whitman in "Song of Myself": Quote A child said What is the grass? fetching it to me with full hands; ... I guess it is the handkerchief of the Lord, A scented gift and remembrancer designedly dropt, Bearing the owner's name someway in the corners, that we may see and remark, and say Whose? I love the idea that the grass is God's handkerchief, his gift, "designedly dropt." He put it there so we would ask "whose?" -- it points us to the Lord. 2
RichYoungRuler Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 1 hour ago, pogi said: Aren't you basically saying the same thing here? No, not at all, but does seem similar when ripped out of context. 1 hour ago, pogi said: sounds like 1 hour ago, pogi said: we need 1 hour ago, pogi said: the devil Are you basically saying we need the devil here?
Ahab Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 14 minutes ago, Rain said: So with all this I'm having some thoughts. If I see Father's words to me in letters as my example showed, then where is on place I can find letters from Jesus? Well, if he created the earth...then what if while I was walking I looked at the sunset, trees, pebbles as his letters to me. Will it change anything? Guess I will see... I see the letters/messages you get from our Father as letters he gives to Jesus who sometimes delivers them personally to prophets but most of the times sends the letters/messages through the Spirit to whoever the Father wanted Jesus to give the letters/messages to. In that way our Father is not left out of anything, and neither is Jesus, and neither is the Holy Spirit. It is all connected and our Father is the one who got the ball rolling in the first place, and keeps it rolling.
RichYoungRuler Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 1 hour ago, pogi said: Why do you make these things mutually exclusive? Christ is both as Savior and a teacher (self-improvement coach) in-one. Do you not believe that he wants us to improve, and that it is in our best interest to improve? "Be ye therefore perfect" Is this a suggestion for improvement or a commandment? You can't kindof meet His perfection requirement and hope he'll somehow overlook all of your imperfections. His requirement cannot be improved. To have a proper relationship with Jesus Christ, you must first have a Savior, not a helper.
pogi Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 12 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: No, not at all, but does seem similar when ripped out of context. You can understand my confusion then...that comment definitely seemed out of place given the context. Can you please elaborate what you meant by this? Quote Should I continue in sin because of this new freedom and because His grace abounds? God forbid.
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