Personal Relationship With Jesus Christ

[pogi]

11 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

"Be ye therefore perfect"

Is this a suggestion for improvement or a commandment?

It is an insistence that we improve - that is what commandments are.  Perfection is a process. 

11 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

To have a proper relationship with Jesus Christ, you must first have a Savior, not a helper.

A Savior is not a helper?

Edited February 20, 2020 by pogi

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

"Be ye therefore perfect"

Is this a suggestion for improvement or a commandment?

You can't kindof meet His perfection requirement and hope he'll somehow overlook all of your imperfections.  His requirement cannot be improved.

To have a proper relationship with Jesus Christ, you must first have a Savior, not a helper.

i like this man and I suggest you hear what he says: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2017/10/be-ye-therefore-perfect-eventually?lang=eng

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

Sometimes, yes.  Considering how fallible our language is, with words that have multiple definitions and people from different backgrounds who sometime speak or write with figures of speech, I think it's amazing when we do actually understand each other.

But agreeing with each other is like this whole other thing, though.  We can understand each other and still not agree.  And we can think someone agrees with us when we think they understand us when we assume things we should not assume.

Isn't this the kind of thing you talk about when you talk about how it is all a matter or interpretation?  That there is no truth, only interpretation?  And you expect people to understand what you mean when you say things like that?

Oh well.  We just have to try to make due with whatever we have to work with and I think it's better to try to communicate our ideas with each other than to just ignore people or say we don't want to talk to people anymore.

I have never said there is no truth, because truth is not definable.

We use the word all the time but most folks have never tried to define it.

But yes as you say we just have to make do.

And that is why some of your statements can be perceived as being rude because you are implying that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

If you actually mean "we just have to make do", it seems inconsistent to insist that you are right when others are wrong.

I see that is a logical contradiction. Everyone else has to make do but you always have it exactly right. Which is it?

 

[RichYoungRuler]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Our Savior requires us to repent from our sins, even if we sin again after we have repented.  He wants us to work at overcoming our sins, and our desire to sin, so that eventually we do not sin anymore.  Otherwise we would just keep on sinning without even trying to stop and he wouldn't like that at all.

Clearly, you fail to see how utterly hopeless and impossible LDS "repentance" is.  If you sin again after you have repented, then you really didn't ever repent in the first place (D&C 58:43) and WHEN you sin, all of your former sins return once again (D&C 82:7).  You may not have a problem with one particular sin, but there's another one to take its place.  

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

Your solution is, what?  To keep on sinning since you haven't stopped sinning yet?  Not a good option, it seems to me.  You'll never get any better that way and our Lord does want to help you to make your life as good as it can possibly be.

The solution is the Savior, not a 7 step repentance program, self-help coach or spiritual "guide", and you're never going to have a Savior if you trying to save yourself.   

[Ahab]

18 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I have never said there is no truth, because truth is not definable.

We use the word all the time but most folks have never tried to define it.

But yes as you say we just have to make do.

And that is why some of your statements can be perceived as being rude because you are implying that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

If you actually mean "we just have to make do", it seems inconsistent to insist that you are right when others are wrong.

I see that is a logical contradiction. Everyone else has to make do but you always have it exactly right. Which is it?

When I say I am right about something, and I know it, just take it as if you had said pretty much the same thing yourself.  I know you have declared what you think is true, sometimes, and so has everyone else who speaks on this planet, including those who post on this board.

Am I making myself clear enough for you yet?

Don't talk as if I am the only person who posts on this board to say what I think is right or who sometimes disagrees with other people.  We all do it.  None of us agrees with each other all of the time. 

So stop treating me as if I am different.  Stop calling me out as if you need to tell me something which for some reason you seem to think I don't already know.

You try to share your thoughts.  I try to share my thoughts.  Other people try to share their thoughts.  Sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't.  Life on Earth as we know it. None of this is new to me and I'm sure it isn't new to you either. 

Nothing new to see here folks.  Move along now.  Move along.  And as always feel free to share whatever you think and feel with others while knowing that not everybody is going to agree with everything you have to say.  But we can still have discussions. If you want to.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Ahab

[pogi]

13 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

Clearly, you fail to see how utterly hopeless and impossible LDS "repentance" is.

Not impossible or hopeless.  I am a better man for it.   I have grown much through the process of utilizing the atonement and have learned things about myself that you unfortunately will never experience without putting forth an effort.  I am a kinder husband and father, I am more forgiving, I am more service oriented and less selfish, etc. etc. etc.  If I did not try and succeed at overcoming many of my sins I would probably be divorced today.  It is a process that works.  Perhaps you are misunderstanding in thinking that it all needs to happen at once.  Nope.  It is a process of improvement.  

Edited February 20, 2020 by pogi

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

Clearly, you fail to see how utterly hopeless and impossible LDS "repentance" is.  If you sin again after you have repented, then you really didn't ever repent in the first place (D&C 58:43) and WHEN you sin, all of your former sins return once again (D&C 82:7).  You may not have a problem with one particular sin, but there's another one to take its place.  

You didn't hear that man I suggested you listen to, did you.  Clearly you didn't.  And I don't think you heard what I told you in my earlier post, either.  Clearly you're not paying any attention to what I am saying or who I am suggesting you listen to. Only your own ideas.

3 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

The solution is the Savior, not a 7 step repentance program, self-help coach or spiritual "guide", and you're never going to have a Savior if you trying to save yourself.   

No worries, then.  I'm not trying to save myself.  I'm just trying to do whatever my Savior tells me to do.  He is my Savior and he knows what he is doing. All I need to do is whatever he tells me to do, or at least try to, and He will take care of the rest.

[RichYoungRuler]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

Christ doesn't require that we keep the commandments perfectly

Yes, He does:

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Matthew 5:48 "^aBe ye therefore ^bperfect, even as your ^cFather which is in heaven is ^dperfect."

Then you said:

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

That's not what I'm saying and it's not what my church teaches. 

Then continue trying to be perfect by trying to keep the commandments, trying to repent and trying to become worthy.

-or-

Ask Jesus Christ to freely give you all of these things - to give you His perfection.

[pogi]

12 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

-or-

Ask Jesus Christ to freely give you all of these things - to give you His perfection.

What does this so called "perfection" look like exactly?  How does it play out in day to day life?  It sounds like a free pass to sin. 

[Ahab]

14 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

Then continue trying to be perfect by trying to keep the commandments, trying to repent and trying to become worthy.

-AND-

Quote

Ask Jesus Christ to freely give you all of these things - to give you His perfection.

 

See that? 

 

If you had simply said -AND- instead of -or- then we would agree with each other about what we need to do.

So, so close! You almost had it!  Try again.  Maybe you will get it right next time.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Ahab

[mfbukowski]

46 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I know you have declared what you think is true,

I have used the word but in an entirely different context.  I have said that we use "truth" to describe justified belief, and I have justified my definitions, while you have not.  Sorry all others.

 

 

[mfbukowski]

52 minutes ago, Ahab said:

So stop treating me as if I am different.  Stop calling me out as if you need to tell me something which for some reason you seem to think I don't already know.

You've got it.

 

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I have used the word but in an entirely different context.  I have said that we use "truth" to describe justified belief, and I have justified my definitions, while you have not.  Sorry all others.

i'll try to say what I was saying before without using the word "truth" this time because my point wasn't all wrapped up in the philosophical understanding of what truth is and I think I can get my point across without using that word.

When I say I am right about something, and I know it, just take it as if you had said pretty much the same thing yourself.  I know you have declared what you think is true, sometimes, and so has everyone else who speaks on this planet, including those who post on this board.

Am I making myself clear enough for you yet?

Don't talk as if I am the only person who posts on this board to say what I think is right or who sometimes disagrees with other people.  We all do it.  None of us agrees with each other all of the time. 

So stop treating me as if I am different.  Stop calling me out as if you need to tell me something which for some reason you seem to think I don't already know.

You try to share your thoughts.  I try to share my thoughts.  Other people try to share their thoughts.  Sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't.  Life on Earth as we know it. None of this is new to me and I'm sure it isn't new to you either. 

Nothing new to see here folks.  Move along now.  Move along.  And as always feel free to share whatever you think and feel with others while knowing that not everybody is going to agree with everything you have to say.  But we can still have discussions. If you want to.

Edited 42 minutes ago by Ahab

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

You've got it.

 

Good.  One down. 3 or 4 more to go, I think.  Calm, bluebell, Rain, and whoever else.  I ask the same of you, too.  No need to talk about the fact that I disagree with you and other people, sometimes, just as I see no need to talk about how you don't always agree with everyone else, either.

Or do you just not like to see it when I disagree with you or other people, preferring to ignore all of my comments simply because I disagree with you and some other people, sometimes?

I just don't get the ignore thing.  Why ignore me?  Why not just think something like: Pfftt, there he goes again sharing his thoughts and feelings with me.  Nothing new about that.  And yes I read those comments.  Now what do I have to say? Or what will I read next?

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said:

Yes, He does:

No, He doesn't.  The law of justice requires that, but Christ came specifically so that He could provide for us a different way---a way that did not require perfection--through His Atonement.   Perfection is the goal, but it is not a requirement to be saved.

Quote

 

Then continue trying to be perfect by trying to keep the commandments, trying to repent and trying to become worthy.

-or-

Ask Jesus Christ to freely give you all of these things - to give you His perfection.

 

I'm trying to become perfect through the Atonement of Christ, who does not save us in our sins, but from them.  He gives us His perfection as we have faith in Him, repent when we fall, and try to follow His commandments.  This is because the point of salvation is to someday, through the Atonement, become like Christ is.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

I just don't get the ignore thing.  Why ignore me?  Why not just think something like: Pfftt, there he goes again sharing his thoughts and feelings with me.  Nothing new about that.  And yes I read those comments.  Now what do I have to say? Or what will I read next?

That's the whole problem.

We have all been over this 14 dozen times with you individually and collectively.

It's a waste of time. Sorry to be so blunt but take it as tough love.

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, Ahab said:

No we don't.  We can decide that it's better to not argue about things people tell us when we do not believe them or agree with them, but we don't have to just take their word for whatever they're saying as if whatever they are saying is true.

Why would you even suggest doing something like that? Taking people's word for whatever they say?  Would that make it all true?  Where would it end? 

No, I think talking things out is always the best option. Be nice and polite but yes do let people know when you do not believe them, and why, and then maybe eventually they will say something that at least sounds reasonable to you.

I'm sorry if I confused you.  When I say we have to take their word I'm talking about when it comes to their interpretation of a spiritual experience (as that is the topic we have been discussing).  And I mean that since there is no way for us know whether they are interpreting the experience correctly, because we didn't experience it, all we have to go on is what they say.  

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Good.  One down. 3 or 4 more to go, I think.  Calm, bluebell, Rain, and whoever else.  I ask the same of you, too.  No need to talk about the fact that I disagree with you and other people, sometimes, just as I see no need to talk about how you don't always agree with everyone else, either.

Or do you just not like to see it when I disagree with you or other people, preferring to ignore all of my comments simply because I disagree with you and some other people, sometimes?

I just don't get the ignore thing.  Why ignore me?  Why not just think something like: Pfftt, there he goes again sharing his thoughts and feelings with me.  Nothing new about that.  And yes I read those comments.  Now what do I have to say? Or what will I read next?

I find that when it's very difficult to communicate with someone effectively--because they often misunderstand what is being said, or refuse to listen to what is being said, or communicate in a way that makes it hard to understand what they are saying (such as consistently using their own definitions for words for example)--that it's a better use of time for both parties to just move on.  

Some communicating styles clash, and when that happens more often than not it's just not worth the aggravation.  

[Ahab]

16 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

That's the whole problem.

We have all been over this 14 dozen times with you individually and collectively.

It's a waste of time. Sorry to be so blunt but take it as tough love.

You think it's rude of me to tell you when I don't agree with you.  Even when I try to be nice about it and try to explain why I do not agree and what I believe, instead.  That's where I am in my level of understanding why people ignore me.  

I don't agree that is a loving thing to do but here I am disagreeing with you again so you are just going to ignore this too, if you are even reading this much.  Some people are totally ignoring everything I am saying, or at least I think so.

This is not what I think of as what love is.

[Ahab]

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm sorry if I confused you.  When I say we have to take their word I'm talking about when it comes to their interpretation of a spiritual experience (as that is the topic we have been discussing).  And I mean that since there is no way for us know whether they are interpreting the experience correctly, because we didn't experience it, all we have to go on is what they say.  

I agree that we can take what they are saying as their interpretation of what they experienced but I don't think that is our only choice and I think a better choice is to talk about what they experienced while being open to other interpretations.

I know certain things about how God interacts with us so when someone says something that is unlike anything I have ever heard of before I question it and don't need to just take their word for it because I know how to find out if something is true/real/valid or not.

So while it seems that you and others see no choice but to just shut down communications because you have nothing else to go on, I do have other things to go on and I utilize what I know and can experience for myself to find out what is true/real/valid.

[Ahab]

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I find that when it's very difficult to communicate with someone effectively--because they often misunderstand what is being said, or refuse to listen to what is being said, or communicate in a way that makes it hard to understand what they are saying (such as consistently using their own definitions for words for example)--that it's a better use of time for both parties to just move on.  

Some communicating styles clash, and when that happens more often than not it's just not worth the aggravation.  

Hmm.  Okay.  I can see the sense in that.  I just think it's rude and weird to tell other people you're going to ignore everything they say from now on and never talk to them again or communicate with them again.  But maybe I shouldn't want to try to communicate with everybody.

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I agree that we can take what they are saying as their interpretation of what they experienced but I don't think that is our only choice and I think a better choice is to talk about what they experienced while being open to other interpretations.

I know certain things about how God interacts with us so when someone says something that is unlike anything I have ever heard of before I question it and don't need to just take their word for it because I know how to find out if something is true/real/valid or not.

So while it seems that you and others see no choice but to just shut down communications because you have nothing else to go on, I do have other things to go on and I utilize what I know and can experience for myself to find out what is true/real/valid.

You know certain things about how God interacts with you, but you don't know how God interacts with other people, because you've never experienced their interaction.

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You know certain things about how God interacts with you, but you don't know how God interacts with other people, because you've never experienced their interaction.

Actually I do know how God interacts with other people, because God has told me about the various ways he and they do it.  God our Father hardly ever communicates with us except to say we should hear from his Mediator between us, and through the Spirit.

I said that before.  You can disagree if you want to but I will still know it is true and I am willing to keep discussing this with you if you want to.  I don't need to experience other people's interactions with God. All I need to know is how God does it, and understand it, and I do.

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Actually I do know how God interacts with other people, because God has told me about the various ways he and they do it.  God our Father hardly ever communicates with us except to say we should hear from his Mediator between us, and through the Spirit.

I said that before.  You can disagree if you want to but I will still know it is true and I am willing to keep discussing this with you if you want to.  I don't need to experience other people's interactions with God. All I need to know is how God does it, and understand it, and I do.

I think it's problematic that you believe that God has told you how He interacts with Rain, for example.   

[Ahab]

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think it's problematic that you believe that God has told you how He interacts with Rain, for example.   

If anyone, not just Rain, told me or ever tells me that they have "very clearly felt from each one individually at times"... with me understanding them to mean they are talking about feeling the spirits of our Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit inside of their mortal body with them/their own spirit... I would tell them that I do not believe it works that way.  That I didn't believe that, that I disputed that, that I did not agree with what they were saying.  And my disagreement/dispute with them would be based on what God has told me about how he and they communicate with others and the fact that his spirit and the spirit of our Lord are inseparably connected to their glorified resurrected bodies.  And I might even go further to tell them that if they were to feel the spirit of our Father in their body with their spirit, and the spirit of our Lord in there as well, as well as the spirit of the Holy Spirit, it would be pretty much impossible for them to tell the difference between each of their spirits and their own.

I don't have a problem with what I believe or with what I am telling you that I believe, so I'm not sure what you mean by saying it is problematic for me to believe it.  Maybe others might have a problem with what I believe, but I have no problem with any of my beliefs.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Ahab