Personal Relationship With Jesus Christ

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Agreed. 

Knowing that the light of Christ exists, and that He is the reason for all creation, also doesn’t help me feel any closer to Jesus. 

I am the reason my kids have heat but them sitting on the heater vent and feeling the warm air doesn’t help them have a more personal relationship with me. 

Your comment made me think of something. When my kids were growing up, in each of their rooms I had a framed picture of the Saviour on their night stand or their wall. So having something tangible can help, and His words in the scriptures along with the story of Him, funny thing is we don't have a picture or stories of God much do we? But other faiths believe Jesus is God, in the flesh. So maybe we have it wrong?

 I haven't reached the relationship part but I watch shows where people have such amazing connections to Him. It makes me wonder if the church is hindering people's relationship with Jesus somehow, not to be negative, but like I've spoken of before, the first time I had any such feelings for the Saviour, is when a southern woman gave a lesson in Relief Society years ago and said she put all of her troubles at the foot of the Saviour.

I'd never heard of that before, that expression. It may have been my upbringing. But IMO, we don't worship the Saviour like some other churches do. But maybe that's because the leaders have taught us not to say His name alot, or we aren't really suppose to show that outward stuff either.

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Tacenda

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/18/2020 at 12:50 PM, RichYoungRuler said:

You keep His commandments?  Interesting.
 

Interesting, indeed. How is it your business?

Quote

Do you even know all of the commandments?

No. Enlighten me, please.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

What do you think it means to have a personal relationship with Jesus?

Receiving revelation or answers to prayer from him apart from the Holy Ghost?

Praying to him instead of the Father?

Receiving the Second Comforter?

Understanding more about and feeling the power of the Atonement?

Feeling gratitude for forgiveness of sins?

Being drawn to him by the Father?

Studying to know more about his life and teachings? 

Other?

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

On 2/13/2020 at 3:00 PM, Anonymous Mormon said:

I am looking for advice on how to improve my relationship with and testimony of Jesus Christ. I would like to come to know Christ in such that I could powerfully testify that He lives and that his Atonement can carry us through tough times. I would like to increase my faith in him. Although not commonly phrased this way in the church culture, I would like to have a 'Personal Relationship with Jesus Christ.'

As a bit of background, I have been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ my entire life. I often feel the Holy Ghost (a guiding voice and/or warmth inside me) testify to me of things when I pray (whether it be the Book of Mormon, or what to do in life, etc.). I have felt forgiveness when I have sinned and understand that this forgiveness comes because of Christ and his Atonement. I believe in God and pray to him to guide me - I have a firm testimony of a loving God. I also have a firm testimony of the Holy Ghost. I also love the teachings of Christ and try to live my life by them (i.e., love one another, forgiveness, etc.). And when I have prayed to have a testimony of Christ I have felt the spirit some, though it's pretty minor not huge or overwhelming or major.

But I feel like I am missing a deeper testimony of Jesus Christ. For example, when reading about Christ in the Bible or Book of Mormon I don't 'feel' Him deeply, instead it's usually an intellectual exercise, like I am reading a fiction plot, as opposed to a feeling of reverence or awe that he is my Lord. I don't feel Christ when praying because prayer doesn't revolve around Christ: I pray to Heavenly Father and am answered by the HG, but Christ plays no immediate part I can feel in this process, except maybe giving Grace so God can even listen (I really wish we prayed to Jesus sometimes). I honestly have a hard time seeing Christ as more than a historical figure at times. And I never feel too much more towards him.

Also, I have a really hard time in feeling the power of the Atonement beyond just being grateful I am forgiven. We are given all kinds of promises that Christ can carry us in times of need and although I feel God's love and the Holy Ghost guide me in times of need, I am not sure how to know/feel Christ or the Atonement is at the center of this.

So my question is two fold:

1) What have others done to form a more personal relationship with the Savior? How have you come to know him in your life?

2) How have others successfully applied the atonement of Christ to carry them through hard times? How do you feel Christ and the Atonement (beyond just knowing that you are forgiven) working in your life?

Note: I am looking for sincere answers from anyone who feels Christ in their life, regardless of their feelings towards or activity or membership in the church (Christ is the Lord of all after all). However, I am not interested in this thread devolving into negativity about the church being not true or Christ being not real - if this is your belief, I'd prefer to now have it clog up the thread and you can please start your own thread on that topic.

Thanks to all in advance! I hope to learn a lot from the conversation.

Mentally change the name you perceive of the intelligence who gives you inspiration to "Jesus Christ."

It's done.

I am serious. Jesus is the only being with whom we have to do. All of this comes through him.

I think sometimes this Trinity /Godhood idea confuses people by confusing various tasks with the individuals we think we are communicating with.

In my mental Doctrine the Godhead is three persons but all but the One with whom I am actually communicating, is the Savior.

He is the Great intercessor.

He is the ideal human who actually came to Earth and lived Among Us and was clearly one of us, and to whom we may most easily relate.

Yes we pray to the father.

Yes the Holy Ghost is the conduit which carries our prayers and inspiration back to us.

But our intercessor is Jesus Christ.

A crude analogy, which is and I apologize, a bit irreverent:

Father is the CEO, and all correspondence is addressed to him.

 The Holy Ghost is FedEx and the phone company all in one.

 But the Savior is customer service and the only one you can get on the phone and the "face" of the company. 

In my heart of hearts he is the one with whom I am speaking and communicating.  Once I realized this everything's changed. Suddenly I had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and in the correct, I think, context.

You've had it all along. It's always been there. You were just calling it by the wrong name.

Click your red shoes and you're back at home.

 

 

<Odd capitalization is due to dictating into my phone. Too lazy to fix. >

Edited February 19, 2020 by mfbukowski

[Rain]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

What do you think it means to have a personal relationship with Jesus?

Really good question.

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Receiving revelation or answers to prayer from him apart from the Holy Ghost?

Praying to him instead of the Father?

Receiving the Second Comforter?

Understanding more about and feeling the power of the Atonement?

Feeling gratitude for forgiveness of sins?

Being drawn to him by the Father?

Studying to know more about his life and teachings? 

No.

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Other?

 

Yes, but I am having difficulty putting it into words.  I'll have to think about it.

[Rain]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Mentally change the name you perceive of the intelligence who gives you inspiration to "Jesus Christ."

It's done.

I am serious. Jesus is the only being with whom we have to do. All of this comes through him.

I think sometimes this Trinity /Godhood idea confuses people by confusing various tasks with the individuals we think we are communicating with.

In my mental Doctrine the Godhead is three persons but all but the One with whom I am actually communicating, is the Savior.

He is the Great intercessor.

He is the ideal human who actually came to Earth and lived Among Us and was clearly one of us, and to whom we may most easily relate.

Yes we pray to the father.

Yes the Holy Ghost is the conduit which carries our prayers and inspiration back to us.

But our intercessor is Jesus Christ.

A crude analogy, which is and I apologize, a bit irreverent:

Father is the CEO, and all correspondence is addressed to him.

 The Holy Ghost is FedEx and the phone company all in one.

 But the Savior is customer service and the only one you can get on the phone and the "face" of the company. 

In my heart of hearts he is the one with whom I am speaking and communicating.  Once I realized this everything's changed. Suddenly I had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and in the correct, I think, context.

You've had it all along. It's always been there. You were just calling it by the wrong name.

Click your red shoes and you're back at home.

 

 

<Odd capitalization is due to dictating into my phone. Too lazy to fix. >

I don't agree, but even if that were the case then people would be missing the relationship with the Father and the Spirit so the problem still would exist, but in the opposite way.

[Tacenda]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Mentally change the name you perceive of the intelligence who gives you inspiration to "Jesus Christ."

It's done.

I am serious. Jesus is the only being with whom we have to do. All of this comes through him.

I think sometimes this Trinity /Godhood idea confuses people by confusing various tasks with the individuals we think we are communicating with.

In my mental Doctrine the Godhead is three persons but all but the One with whom I am actually communicating, is the Savior.

He is the Great intercessor.

He is the ideal human who actually came to Earth and lived Among Us and was clearly one of us, and to whom we may most easily relate.

Yes we pray to the father.

Yes the Holy Ghost is the conduit which carries our prayers and inspiration back to us.

But our intercessor is Jesus Christ.

A crude analogy, which is and I apologize, a bit irreverent:

Father is the CEO, and all correspondence is addressed to him.

 The Holy Ghost is FedEx and the phone company all in one.

 But the Savior is customer service and the only one you can get on the phone and the "face" of the company. 

In my heart of hearts he is the one with whom I am speaking and communicating.  Once I realized this everything's changed. Suddenly I had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and in the correct, I think, context.

You've had it all along. It's always been there. You were just calling it by the wrong name.

Click your red shoes and you're back at home.

 

 

<Odd capitalization is due to dictating into my phone. Too lazy to fix. >

By George I think you've got it! Great analogy MF!

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Rain said:

I don't agree, but even if that were the case then people would be missing the relationship with the Father and the Spirit so the problem still would exist, but in the opposite way.

Do you speak to all three independently?

You know three individual voices?

You have three personal relationships?

Edited February 19, 2020 by mfbukowski
No intent to be sarcastic, removed one word.

[Ahab]

4 hours ago, Rain said:

I don't agree, but even if that were the case then people would be missing the relationship with the Father and the Spirit so the problem still would exist, but in the opposite way.

The Father is still there, though, even though his messages come to you through Jesus and the Holy Ghost.  And the Holy Ghost is still there as the one who gives you the messages from our Father and Jesus to you.

But, yes, that would be the more correct way to think of our relationship with our Father, now that we are in our fallen condition.  We don't hear directly from our Father anymore.  We only hear from him through Jesus and the Holy Ghost.

And the Holy Ghost is simply sharing what our Father and Jesus want him to share with you, so his role is basically the role of a messenger.  He delivers thoughts and feelings to you and those thoughts and feelings are what our Father and Jesus want him to convey to you.

So it's not  really as if you're not hearing from our Father anymore. You're just not hearing from him directly.  And it's not as if you're not hearing from the Spirit, because Jesus communicates with you through the Spirit.  Without Jesus we would get nothing.  Nada.  No relations with God.

... except from  what we can get with each other, as children of God who would have no means to receiving any communications from them.

So thank God for Jesus, without whom we would be stuck in our fallen condition with no way to get out of it.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Ahab

[Rain]

49 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Do you speak to all three independently?

You know three individual voices?

You have three personal relationships?

Wow.

I have never addressed Jesus or the Holy Ghost (I always address Father), but I have very clearly felt from each one individually at times . 

And like I said above, I feel relationships with the Father and the Holy Ghost, but struggle to feel something with Christ.

I'm not sure what the "wow" is for, but if it is sarcastic then I don't feel the need to discuss the further with you. I don't find that conducive to communication.

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, Rain said:

I have never addressed Jesus or the Holy Ghost (I always address Father), but I have very clearly felt from each one individually at times . '

I dispute that.  I think you're mistaken.  But I am curious why you think so, or feel that you do. I also think that if you did, it would be pretty much impossible for you to tell the difference. I can tell the difference between good and evil influences but I can't tell the difference between good influences from God, only that communications from God (those 3 persons) feel as if it is all coming from the same, one, unified source.  So while I don't agree with you I suppose you could say I am still curious to know how you came up with your idea about that.

1 minute ago, Rain said:

And like I said above, I feel relationships with the Father and the Holy Ghost, but struggle to feel something with Christ.

And I think that's because you don't understand the role Jesus Christ plays in all this.  Try imagining that he isn't taking any credit for himself and that he directs all attention to his/our Father through the power of the Holy Spirit.  I think that might help you to see what I see.

 

[Rain]

32 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I dispute that.  I think you're mistaken.  But I am curious why you think so, or feel that you do. I also think that if you did, it would be pretty much impossible for you to tell the difference. I can tell the difference between good and evil influences but I can't tell the difference between good influences from God, only that communications from God (those 3 persons) feel as if it is all coming from the same, one, unified source.  So while I don't agree with you I suppose you could say I am still curious to know how you came up with your idea about that.

And I think that's because you don't understand the role Jesus Christ plays in all this.  Try imagining that he isn't taking any credit for himself and that he directs all attention to his/our Father through the power of the Holy Spirit.  I think that might help you to see what I see.

 

I want to be clear here. A little while ago some expressed disbelief that others had been silent on things said in some posts.

So I want to make sure this is here so others understand: you have consistantly shown a lack of respect for my experiences, knowledge and feelings. You argue against experiences and feelings I have had that only I have experienced. You treat me as if I could not have enough knowledge or understanding of me and my own experiences as you have of MY experiences and thoughts.

I'm done. I will not interact with you again on this board. 

To all reading, please know that my silence is not agreement.

 

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Rain

[mfbukowski]

43 minutes ago, Rain said:

I have never addressed Jesus or the Holy Ghost (I always address Father), but I have very clearly felt from each one individually at times . 

And like I said above, I feel relationships with the Father and the Holy Ghost, but struggle to feel something with Christ.

I'm not sure what the "wow" is for, but if it is sarcastic then I don't feel the need to discuss the further with you. I don't find that conducive to communication.

It was not intended to be sarcastic, and I apologize, and I will edit that word out of the post.

I respect what you are saying, I was genuinely surpised that it is possible to "hear from each one individually" and yet "struggle to feel something with Christ".

I am honestly interested in pursuing how this could be possible to both hear from all three while struggling with "feeling something" from one.

But I understand mystical connections and the limits of language in trying to describe them.

I honestly meant no offense, I am just trying to construct what that would be like in my own mind.  It is beyond my understanding, but I know you are close to the Lord, probably much closer than I am.

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, Rain said:

I want to be clear here. A little while ago some expressed disbelief that others had been silent on things said in some posts.

So I want to make sure this is here so others understand: you have consistantly shown a lack of respect for my experiences, knowledge and feelings. You argue against experiences and feelings I have had that only I have experienced. You treat me as if I could not have enough knowledge or understanding of me and my own experiences as you have of MY experiences and thoughts.

I'm done. I will not interact with you again on this board. 

To all reading, please know that my silence is not agreement.

So when people don't agree with you then you stop talking to them or listening to what they tell you about what they believe.  Okay.  Got it.  Lack of agreement = lack of respect, in your mind. 

So I suppose we will not be interacting with each other again, unless maybe you change your mind later.  We'll see.

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Ahab said:

So when people don't agree with you then you stop talking to them or listening to what they tell you about what they believe. 

That is not what she said.  She intends to stop listening to you because you tell her what she believes rather than letting her speak for herself as if you know better.

That your paraphrase/accusation is nothing like what she wrote is a good example of your habit.

She is not the only one.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Calm

[Rain]

8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

It was not intended to be sarcastic, and I apologize, and I will edit that word out of the post.

I respect what you are saying, I was genuinely surpised that it is possible to "hear from each one individually" and yet "struggle to feel something with Christ".

I am honestly interested in pursuing how this could be possible to both hear from all three while struggling with "feeling something" from one.

But I understand mystical connections and the limits of language in trying to describe them.

I honestly meant no offense, I am just trying to construct what that would be like in my own mind. 

I really appreciate this. Thank you. 

8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

It is beyond my understanding, but I know you are close to the Lord, probably much closer than I am.

I doubt it. I just think we each get understanding and knowledge at different times and ways and for different reasons. I love that even though we each only have one little piece we can grow from what others have learned.

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

That is not what she said.  She intends to stop listening to you because you tell her what she believes rather than letting her speak for herself as if you know better.

She is not the only one.

CFR.  I am disputing what you are saying now too.  I have only shared what I thought about what she said and what I thought about what she believes.  I did not tell her what she believes.  I find it hard to believe that you can't see the difference in those 2 things.

Here is what I said; with some highlights.

I dispute that.  I think you're mistaken.  But I am curious why you think so, or feel that you do. I also think that if you did, it would be pretty much impossible for you to tell the difference. I can tell the difference between good and evil influences but I can't tell the difference between good influences from God, only that communications from God (those 3 persons) feel as if it is all coming from the same, one, unified source.  So while I don't agree with you I suppose you could say I am still curious to know how you came up with your idea about that.

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

The Father is still there, though, even though his messages come to you through Jesus and the Holy Ghost.  And the Holy Ghost is still there as the one who gives you the messages from our Father and Jesus to you.

But, yes, that would be the more correct way to think of our relationship with our Father, now that we are in our fallen condition.  We don't hear directly from our Father anymore.  We only hear from him through Jesus and the Holy Ghost.

And the Holy Ghost is simply sharing what our Father and Jesus want him to share with you, so his role is basically the role of a messenger.  He delivers thoughts and feelings to you and those thoughts and feelings are what our Father and Jesus want him to convey to you.

So it's not  really as if you're not hearing from our Father anymore. You're just not hearing from him directly.  And it's not as if you're not hearing from the Spirit, because Jesus communicates with you through the Spirit.  Without Jesus we would get nothing.  Nada.  No relations with God.

... except from  what we can get with each other, as children of God who would have no means to receiving any communications from them.

So thank God for Jesus, without whom we would be stuck in our fallen condition with no way to get out of it.

I mostly agree with you but I feel that it is not up to us to tell others what THEY "really" feel, or correct what they say is what they have felt.

We have no conception of what others feel or know and especially in religious matters have no right to "correct" them.

We are all children of God muddling through this world the best we can.   It is like telling someone that YOUR perception of the color we call "yellow" is correct and theirs is not.  There is no possible way of even comparing individual experiences

We experience what we experience and try to communicate it, but we have no way of knowing if what we see is what they see.  Who knows, your "yellow" may be what I call "blue", but as we grow we learn linguistic conventions taught to us while viewing objects, but we have no way of knowing if the EXPERIENCE  is the "same" for each of us.   Perhaps that is the source of disagreement about preferences about everything and why we have "favorite colors".   Who knows- our "favorite color" might "actually" be the same among all people but because of differences in our individual nervous systems we see it differently than others, like all preferences we perceive.

That's the best we can hope for.

So I think we need to telling people what is best for them, or that they are "incorrect" in these matters.

[mfbukowski]

35 minutes ago, Rain said:

To all reading, please know that my silence is not agreement.

This is also my problem.  There are folks I would love to totally ignore, but then it appears I have surrendered to them.

I guess we both need to be stronger in these areas, or just not care as much. 

Again I apologize for our misunderstanding.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Ahab said:

CFR.  I am disputing what you are saying now too. 

Her post.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

I dispute that.  I think you're mistaken.  But I am curious why you think so, or feel that you do. I also think that if you did, it would be pretty much impossible for you to tell the difference. I can tell the difference between good and evil influences but I can't tell the difference between good influences from God, only that communications from God (those 3 persons) feel as if it is all coming from the same, one, unified source.  So while I don't agree with you I suppose you could say I am still curious to know how you came up with your idea about that.

And I think that's because you don't understand the role Jesus Christ plays in all this.  Try imagining that he isn't taking any credit for himself and that he directs all attention to his/our Father through the power of the Holy Spirit.  I think that might help you to see what I see.

 

The "I've never felt it so therefore no one can" argument is a little self righteous and prideful.  But, it does fit in well with your "you disagree with me so you must be misunderstanding something" conclusion.  

[mfbukowski]

12 minutes ago, Ahab said:

CFR.

Here I am. 

[Ahab]

Just now, mfbukowski said:

I mostly agree with you but I feel that it is not up to us to tell others what THEY "really" feel, or correct what they say is what they have felt.

I don't think that's appropriate either but I do think we can tell others what we think THEY 'really' feel or explain what we think they are talking about, including telling others point blank that we do not agree with what they have said. 

Please note the difference in what I am saying and what you are saying here.

Just now, mfbukowski said:

We have no conception of what others feel or know and especially in religious matters have no right to "correct" them.

I don't know about you but I often have conceptions of what people are talking about when they share their thoughts and beliefs with me, including some conceptions which do not sound right to me and which I will say I do not agree with.

Just now, mfbukowski said:

We are all children of God muddling through this world the best we can.   It is like telling someone that YOUR perception of the color we call "yellow" is correct and theirs is not.  There is no possible way of even comparing individual experiences

People pretty much do that in everyday relations with other people, though.  If someone says something is yellow and someone else looks at it and sees that it looks like green to them, the person who sees it as green is going to point out that, no, that is green, not yellow.

Are things somehow supposed to be different on this board?  Are we not supposed to tell others when we do not agree with them?  No, I don't think so.  I see it all the time around here, among various people. And here you are trying to correct me now.  Go figure.

Just now, mfbukowski said:

We experience what we experience and try to communicate it, but we have no way of knowing if what we see is what they see.  Who knows, your "yellow" may be what I call "blue", but as we grow we learn linguistic conventions taught to us while viewing objects, but we have no way of knowing if the EXPERIENCE  is the "same" for each of us.   Perhaps that is the source of disagreement about preferences about everything and why we have "favorite colors".   Who knows- our "favorite color" might "actually" be the same among all people but because of differences in our individual nervous systems we see it differently than others, like all preferences we perceive.

That's the best we can hope for.

So I think we need to telling people what is best for them, or that they are "incorrect" in these matters.

I'm just sharing what I believe and what I think and what I see, based on how I see things.  If you don't agree you don't have to stop listening to me.  You could wonder, Hmm, I wonder why he thinks something different than me?  And then try to share what you see with me.

[Ahab]

13 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The "I've never felt it so therefore no one can" argument is a little self righteous and prideful.  But, it does fit in well with your "you disagree with me so you must be misunderstanding something" conclusion.  

Stop picking on me for a moment and just tell me and the rest of the board if you see things the same way that Rain says she does.  Do you agree with her or not? If you don't agree do you think it's okay for you to say so? 

You don't seem to have a problem saying you don't agree with me but would you also tell her if you did not agree with her?  And how would that be different from me telling her that I don't agree with her?  Is it just more fun for you to tell me you don't agree with me?

[Calm]

I have told Rain I haven't agreed with her in the past.   I have no problem telling anyone I disagree with them.

Quote

nd how would that be different from me telling her that I don't agree with her

If that was the issue, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I don't tell her (or anyone else) what her experience and feelings really mean contrary to what she says they are.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Calm