Ahab Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 1 minute ago, RichYoungRuler said: Legitimate points. What you've been taught completely undermines what it means to have a relationship with Jesus Christ. I don't know why you think so and I completely disagree I've been personally taught by Jesus through the Holy Spirit and what you think of my relationship to him does not determine what my relationship with him is. 1 minute ago, RichYoungRuler said: Depends on perspective. Do you see a banana or a banana peel? I see a digital image of what appears to be a banana. What does that have to do with whether or not you are 100% as perfect as Jesus or our Father in heaven?
RichYoungRuler Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 3 hours ago, pogi said: Right, so there is a resolve to not repeat the transgression. There is no margin of error allowed in "God forbid" either! That is what the atonement is for though, to help us through our imperfect resolve. Don't you think it would be incredible if you had a Savior that could offer you more than just help with your imperfection? Imagine a Savior that could offer you His perfection right now. I mean really, don't you think that would be "good news"?
bluebell Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 1 minute ago, RichYoungRuler said: Don't you think it would be incredible if you had a Savior that could offer you more than just help with your imperfection? Imagine a Savior that could offer you His perfection right now. I mean really, don't you think that would be "good news"? You do t understand what Pogi is saying. That’s why your explanation of your beliefs has nothing to offer him. 4
Ahab Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 Just now, RichYoungRuler said: Don't you think it would be incredible if you had a Savior that could offer you more than just help with your imperfection? Imagine a Savior that could offer you His perfection right now. I mean really, don't you think that would be "good news"? Imagine his atonement made you 100% as perfect as he is when you first heard about him and the gospel? Is that what you are imagining right now? Do you have that image of yourself in your mind right now, as how you really are? Now try realizing that you were only imagining that and that in reality you are not nearly as perfect as Jesus is now.
pogi Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 43 minutes ago, bluebell said: Brad Wilcox's His Grace is Sufficient is one of the best explanations of Salvation, Works, and Grace for an LDS audience that i've ever heard. I highly recommend it. Here is another great quote along those lines. It addresses MiserereNobis's comments well: Quote The prophet Nephi made an important contribution to our understanding of God’s grace when he declared, “We labor diligently … to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” However, I wonder if sometimes we misinterpret the phrase “after all we can do.” We must understand that “after” does not equal “because.” We are not saved “because” of all that we can do. Have any of us done all that we can do? Does God wait until we’ve expended every effort before He will intervene in our lives with His saving grace? Many people feel discouraged because they constantly fall short. They know firsthand that “the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” They raise their voices with Nephi in proclaiming, “My soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.” I am certain Nephi knew that the Savior’s grace allows and enables us to overcome sin. This is why Nephi labored so diligently to persuade his children and brethren “to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God.” After all, that is what we can do! And that is our task in mortality! (President Uchtdorf) 4
RichYoungRuler Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, Ahab said: I don't know why you think so and I completely disagree I've been personally taught by Jesus through the Holy Spirit and what you think of my relationship to him does not determine what my relationship with him is. I see a digital image of what appears to be a banana. What does that have to do with whether or not you are 100% as perfect as Jesus or our Father in heaven? The point is that we only see the outside, but God is able to see us on the inside - the real you, your soul. Likewise, when you say "you are 100% as perfect as Jesus", depends on which man you are referring.
pogi Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: Imagine a Savior that could offer you His perfection right now. I will ask again, what does that so called instant "perfection" look like to you in the real world? Sinning without accountability or consequence? Is that Christ's perfection according to you? Edited February 21, 2020 by pogi
Ahab Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 1 minute ago, RichYoungRuler said: The point is that we only see the outside, but God is able to see us on the inside - the real you, your soul. Likewise, when you say "you are 100% as perfect as Jesus", depends on which man you are referring. I do not say that because I do not believe I am 100% as perfect as Jesus is. Would you like me to change my mind and start to believe that I am? Do you really think I am? Or could be, right now? And this because of... what? Because I would believe it? Is that all it takes now?
RichYoungRuler Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 11 minutes ago, pogi said: I will ask again, what does that so called instant "perfection" look like to you in the real world? Sinning without accountability or consequence? Is that Christ's perfection according to you? Depends on who sees me. Are you referring to the body or the soul? "17 Now then it is no more I that ado it, but sin that dwelleth in me." It is no longer I (soul) that do it (sin), but sin that dwelleth within me (body).
RichYoungRuler Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 15 minutes ago, Ahab said: I do not say that because I do not believe I am 100% as perfect as Jesus is. Would you like me to change my mind and start to believe that I am? Do you really think I am? Or could be, right now? And this because of... what? Because I would believe it? Is that all it takes now? His perfection is available for you right now. All you can do to receive it is choose to believe. Just imagine it for a moment. Wouldn't that fit the definition of "good news"?
Ahab Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: Depends on who sees me. Are you referring to the body or the soul? "17 Now then it is no more I that ado it, but sin that dwelleth in me." It is no longer I (soul) that do it (sin), but sin that dwelleth within me (body). Oh, that's a really nice one. So I'm not really sinning when someone who only sees my body sees what they think is me sinning. That was just my body committing that sin and my soul in my body just went along with my body because it had no choice, since my body and soul is now stuck together. Oooh, I can't wait to bring this one up at my next Sacrament meeting talk. I wonder how long my soul will have to go along with what my body does or wants to do, though. Will I always have a body that wants to sin? And will my body always be in control of my spirit/soul inside of my body? Who will save me from this situation? And how? What do I need to do to be saved? Edited February 21, 2020 by Ahab
RichYoungRuler Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 On 2/21/2020 at 11:46 AM, MiserereNobis said: I know Jesus commanded us to be perfect, but I find it less daunting to focus on the two great commandments, which are love. My end goal isn't perfection, but love. And honestly, I don't think much about perfection. I see RichYoungRuler's basic point that perhaps the commandment to be perfect is just to show us that we can't be perfect. Maybe the quest for perfection is to get us to give up the quest and then sit down and finally see God's love. I don't know, just thinking out loud. Yes! Finally. I love this. The whole point of having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is to "get us to give up the quest and then sit down and finally see God's love". Jesus Christ is God's love in the flesh. Thank you! Moderator: You are welcome to interact and ask questions but we do not allow proselyting. If you are only here to lecture you will be banned from the thread or the board.
mfbukowski Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 4 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said: Does Jesus Christ command that you be perfect or that you become perfect? There's no such thing as being partially born and you don't get extra credit for trying your best. You are either 100% perfect because you have His perfection, or you are 100% imperfect, because you have your own perfection. Ah, an Evangelical. Welcome but that is not our belief. All these folks will be happy to answer your questions. 2
mfbukowski Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 On 2/20/2020 at 11:39 AM, pogi said: Not impossible or hopeless. I am a better man for it. I have grown much through the process of utilizing the atonement and have learned things about myself that you unfortunately will never experience without putting forth an effort. I am a kinder husband and father, I am more forgiving, I am more service oriented and less selfish, etc. etc. etc. If I did not try and succeed at overcoming many of my sins I would probably be divorced today. It is a process that works. Perhaps you are misunderstanding in thinking that it all needs to happen at once. Nope. It is a process of improvement. Well said!
Ahab Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 16 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: His perfection is available for you right now. All you can do to receive it is choose to believe. Just imagine it for a moment. Wouldn't that fit the definition of "good news"? No, that's just what I consider to be fake news. As long as I believe I am perfect, I am. Nope, didn't work. I am still a flawed person. Maybe I need to try to harder to believe it. Uggghhh!!!! Nope, didn't work. I am still a flawed person. Ask anyone around here and they'll tell you how flawed I am. Well, maybe not just anyone, but there are a lot of people around here who will attest to the idea that I am a flawed person. I just don't talk right, according to them. Ugggghhhhhhhhhh!!!! Nope, still not working. If it works for you, though, go with it. You'll find out if our Lord agrees with you, eventually.
mfbukowski Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: . I see RichYoungRuler's basic point that perhaps the commandment to be perfect is just to show us that we can't be perfect. Maybe the quest for perfection is to get us to give up the quest and then sit down and finally see God's love. I don't know, just thinking out loud. Or perhaps both of you have been taught "original sin" and the inescapable depravity of man. We believe in man's inherent goodness, though we are still Sinners anyway. Our fault, mea maxima culpa, not the fault of our "nature" whatever that word is supposed to mean. We can choose Christ's way and be sinless. He is the model. But none of us do. It would be pointless for God to command us to do something we are incapable of doing. It would be like commanding us to fly. And of course there are things that we can be perfect on in right here in this life. I really don't cuss anymore, dang it! And as we progress we do get better at repentance. And also remember we believe we have an eternity to follow this commandment and get it right. But what Christ is teaching here is exaltation anyway, deification That is what separates us from sectarian Christians. So don't say it's impossible to be perfect. It is possible given eons of repentance, hanging around with angels and Saints. Edited February 21, 2020 by mfbukowski
MiserereNobis Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Or perhaps both of you have been taught "original sin" and the inescapable depravity of man. I'm a convert to Catholicism, so while I was technically taught "original sin" it wasn't something I blindly accepted as a child might. It matched up with my experiences. Try as we might as humans, our good intentions often go awry. Something in our nature leaves us prone to turn from God, or from goodness. It could be a big turning away or a small turning away, but it's there. Something's not quite right in me. A broken human nature explains it well. God's love, sacrifice, and offer to fix it is good news indeed. 10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: It would be pointless for God to command us to do something we are incapable of doing. It would be like commanding us to fly. Perhaps the point is not for us to fly, but for us to learn important things while we go about the business of trying to fly. If the point isn't the completion of the commandment, then it wouldn't be pointless to command something impossible to complete. Kinda like the point of Zen koans... finding the right answer isn't the point, but learning about how the mind works with ideas of right answers. I don't know, again, I'm just thinking out loud here based on my personal experiences. No hard dogma from me on this one! 1
pogi Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 1 hour ago, RichYoungRuler said: Depends on who sees me. Are you referring to the body or the soul? "17 Now then it is no more I that ado it, but sin that dwelleth in me." It is no longer I (soul) that do it (sin), but sin that dwelleth within me (body). Ah, good ol' Cartesian dualism! Are you interpreting that to mean that you are not accountable for what your body does? Is that perfection to you?
Rain Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 I think this got lost in the thread and I'd really love for some to answer the questions if you will. On 2/16/2020 at 8:39 AM, Anonymous Mormon said: Thank you to all who have responded to my question over the last few days. I have read and re-read all of your comments and they have been very inspiring. I thought about trying to respond to each of them personally, but decided it was easier to just Like them so you knew I read it rather than have to respond to a dozen or so people individually. I have a lot of fabulous ideas to start putting into practice from everyone's input. As I continue my journey, I will report back. If you haven't commented and want to do so, please do. And for those that have commented, I would love to know your opinions on a follow up question: In the scriptures it talks a lot about the Holy Ghost manifesting Christ or testifying of Christ to us. Here is just one of many examples: "2 Nephi 26:13 And that he manifesteth himself unto all those who believe in him, by the power of the Holy Ghost; yea, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people," I'd love to know how this works for people in their lives. How do you feel the HG testifying of Christ in your life? Do you feel like the Holy Ghost has manifested Christ to you? Again, thanks in advance!
mfbukowski Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, pogi said: Ah, good ol' Cartesian dualism! Are you interpreting that to mean that you are not accountable for what your body does? Is that perfection to you? The "fact" that Sin dwells within us has nothing to do with how it got there- I am certainly not about to blame God for it, or that it is all Adam's fault. I see those as ridiculous! That is actually one of my favorite scriptures because I know exactly where those sins got "in there" so they could dwell, and THAT was purely MY fault! The primary example of this is addiction- yes that addiction does indeed "dwell" within you, but blaming God for you wanting to get high to help you deal with the unpleasantness of life is pretty stupid. I have my "Mosquito Bite Theory of Evil", a truly profound way of seeing it. Some stimulus from the world knocks us off kilter when we are not really thinking about what we should be doing- and that is watching out for these various stimuli, realizing what they are ("Satan at work"). I find it a very good analogy to actually personify "Satan" as it is useful to personify Goodness in God. But the real enemy is distraction. While talking to someone for example, we get absorbed and hypnotized by the activity, while things are going on that we should be aware of. Think about being outdoor and playing sports. Without even thinking about it, we scratch our arm. "Scratching an itch" is a great analogy imo for how addiction works. Like the mosquito we never see, it is a stimulus we never notice at first, the mosquito bites us and literally "gets under our skin" in a kind of violation. Then we scratch again, still absent mindedly. The mosquito has injected a small amount of its saliva to thin our blood so he can get his dinner. Each itch we scratch causes us to spread the "infection" farther because it draws blood to the area and so that venom spreads. Soon we notice the mosquito bite and think "Oh man- look at that thing! I better stop scratching it - it will get worse!" But of course, distracted again and again, we scratch again and again. The violating agent is programming us to scratch more and more. That violation has LITERALLY "made a home in us". Theoretically, if we keep scratching, we could get an infection. Under the right conditions, or the right bacteria, the infection could get worse and eventually kill us theoretically. All because some stimulus got "under our skin" and we did nothing about us. It could be as minor a sin as getting angry. It feels good- man we told that guy off!! "I honked /punched/shot that guy for doing what he did to ME! - I showed HIM!" It could be drugs- same thing. "Try it - you'll like it". It could be eating or anger or pornography, it could be addictive shopping or being a serial killer! I think this is the pattern of all sin: the mosquito bite! I love this old commercial because it shows how it all works- but I don't think THAT was the intention! Notice at the end the "remedy" is ultimately just the same as the violating stimulus - just another substitute for getting it right from the beginning! That's the irony of the whole thing!! So yes, sin makes a home in you, but it's hardly God's fault! The mere fact that WE CAN overcome sin means that it is not in our "nature" We could just as well argue that overcoming sin is in our nature. 1
mfbukowski Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 The notion of "human nature" is a vacuous expression that means nothing! A dog's nature is what? To act like a dog. A mosquito's nature is to .... act like a mosquito and BE one Human nature is to.... act like a human The concept of "nature" explains nothing when paired with an adjective. A "good nature" means one is good. "Bad nature"= one is bad The word "nature" is superfluous. So yes, Jesus was half divine and half human if you want to use those confusing words which explain nothing. We could just as well say that we are part divine and part human. But what parts are we talking about? Are our legs divine and not our arms? A great old and popular joke. Quote Three guys are waiting in line to see the release board in a psychiatric ward. The first guy walks in and the board says, "Point to your knees." The man points to his elbow so the board revokes his release. The second guy walks in and the board says, "Point to your ear." The man points to his foot so the board revokes his release. The third guy walks in and the board says, "Point to your heart." The man points to his heart. The board says "now point to your foot", and the man points to his foot. The board is satisfied with his responses and approves his release. On his way out, the first two guys approach him and ask how he got all the answers right. The man points to his brain and says, "I got kidneys."
mfbukowski Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 2 hours ago, pogi said: I will ask again, what does that so called instant "perfection" look like to you in the real world? Sinning without accountability or consequence? Is that Christ's perfection according to you? Martin Luther: "Sin boldly!"
Ahab Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 30 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: The notion of "human nature" is a vacuous expression that means nothing! A dog's nature is what? To act like a dog. A mosquito's nature is to .... act like a mosquito and BE one Human nature is to.... act like a human The concept of "nature" explains nothing when paired with an adjective. A "good nature" means one is good. "Bad nature"= one is bad The word "nature" is superfluous. So yes, Jesus was half divine and half human if you want to use those confusing words which explain nothing. We could just as well say that we are part divine and part human. But what parts are we talking about? Are our legs divine and not our arms? Yes our words do get in the way of us understanding each other sometimes, but yet we still manage to understand each other at least a little bit. I don't use the word nature very often, like Monk says Nature is dirty, and instead to prefer to talk about the kind of being we are, which I say is the same kind of being our Father in heaven and Jesus Christ is. The kind of being we generally refer to as God. Still some people don't understand me, and sometimes some do but don't agree with me anyway, but I think that is how it is supposed to be for right now, otherwise everyone would already know and understand each other and the only question is whether or not we would agree.
RichYoungRuler Posted February 24, 2020 Posted February 24, 2020 On 2/21/2020 at 4:06 PM, pogi said: Ah, good ol' Cartesian dualism! Are you interpreting that to mean that you are not accountable for what your body does? The body sins and the body will die. How is that not accountable? On 2/21/2020 at 4:06 PM, pogi said: Is that perfection to you? What difference does it make how we define "perfection"? We must all stand before Jesus Christ at the final judgement. How does He define "perfection"?
pogi Posted February 24, 2020 Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: The body sins and the body will die. How is that not accountable? The soul has no choice in what the body does? The soul is guilt free? Just along for the ride? A puppet to the body? Do you not believe in a resurrection of the body? 14 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: What difference does it make how we define "perfection"? You are the one who was trying to sell me on "Christ's perfection" as if it was some awesome thing I could have right now. Sell me on it! Sell me on what you think Christ's perfection looks like. You seem to be pretty excited about it so it shouldn't be hard to explain what it is to you. I am not sold if you think it doesn't make a difference as to what it actually means. If your definition of perfection is basically a free-pass-to-sin, then go sell someone else on this horrendous idea of perfection. Edited February 24, 2020 by pogi 1
Recommended Posts