Ahab Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 17 minutes ago, pogi said: Are you perfect in obedience with the two great commandments? Those are the ones that we seem to struggle with the most. We tend to be selfish creatures. I am not even close to being perfect in obedience with those commandments - that's what I tend to repent of the most. I love my wife, yet I am still selfish at times with her. You never have that problem? No sin of pride? Yes, I obey the 2 greatest commandments. I love God with all of my heart, mind, and strength... with all that I have and all that I am... and I love everyone else as I love myself... to the extent that I do. Pride is something I saw a lot of while growing up, pride in my family was very pervasive, but I learned a lot about what not to do by seeing how much harm that caused them, and myself, and deciding that I did not want to be that way, anymore, myself. I don't even like to use the word pride anymore, preferring instead to say when I am well pleased with something or someone. So, yes, no sin of pride, in me, anymore.
Ahab Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 23 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: I think you and I are using different definitions of sin. I guess we'll leave it at that To sin is to know what God's will is and then to refuse to comply with it anyway, essentially choosing to rebel against God's will. If you define it in some other way, that's up to you, but at least now you know how I define it.
pogi Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Ahab said: Yes, I obey the 2 greatest commandments. I love God with all of my heart, mind, and strength... with all that I have and all that I am... and I love everyone else as I love myself... to the extent that I do. Pride is something I saw a lot of while growing up, pride in my family was very pervasive, but I learned a lot about what not to do by seeing how much harm that caused them, and myself, and deciding that I did not want to be that way, anymore, myself. I don't even like to use the word pride anymore, preferring instead to say when I am well pleased with something or someone. So, yes, no sin of pride, in me, anymore. I'll just leave this here: Quote If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8) 3
pogi Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, RichYoungRuler said: But isn't the atonement to which you subscribe conditional, based upon how you kept the commandments? If your level of perfection [during mortality] doesn't meet Heavenly Father's requirement, what are you hoping will bridge that gap? We have been through this. No, the atonement is not conditional upon perfect obedience to all commandments. In fact, it is conditional upon sin. Without sin, we would have no need of it. After we have met the condition of sin, then we must meet a few more conditions 1) faith, 2) repentance, 3) baptism, after that we have to 4) "endure to the end". Enduring to the end does not imply perfect obedience. It implies that we continue in faith and repentance. Perfection will never be accomplished in mortality. Edited February 25, 2020 by pogi 1
Ahab Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, pogi said: I'll just leave this here: Yeah, stopping short of including verse 9 and the rest of John's message in context. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/1-jn/1?lang=eng If we aconfess our sins, he is faithful and bjust to cforgive us our sins, and to dcleanse us from all unrighteousness. Once we confess our sins to God and God forgives us for our sins, we are then cleansed from all unrighteousness (unless there are other sins that we haven't confessed to God). But we should walk in the light, as our Lord is in the light and helps us to see it, rather than walking in darkness and not repenting from our sins whenever we see that we have sinned. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and awalk in bdarkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we awalk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the bblood of Jesus Christ his Son ccleanseth us from all sin. John's message then continues in chapter 2 and the rest of his letter. I'll quote just a little more of that here now and you can read the rest for yourself. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. aAnd if any man sin, we have an badvocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the apropitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole bworld. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we akeep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his acommandments, is a bliar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso akeepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are bin him. He that saith he aabideth in him ought himself also so to bwalk, even as he walked. Edited February 25, 2020 by Ahab
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said: Ignorance of the law has never excused anyone from the necessity of obeying the law. After all, no one can be saved in ignorance, right? D&C 131:6 "It is impossible for a man to be asaved in bignorance." The way you are interpreting that is not LDS Doctrine at all. Billions of people on this Earth have never even heard of Jesus Christ. Multiple billions more died before he was even on the Earth. God cannot blame us for what we do not know while in mortality, that would be unjust, and God would cease being God. And he has given us an eternity to overcome ignorance. But it seems you are unaware of these doctrines? In that case it might be essential to learn what we actually believe before you criticize us. Edited February 25, 2020 by mfbukowski 3
RichYoungRuler Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 44 minutes ago, pogi said: We have been through this. No, the atonement is not conditional upon perfect obedience to all commandments. In fact, it is conditional upon sin. Without sin, we would have no need of it. After we have met the condition of sin, then we must meet a few more conditions 1) faith, 2) repentance, 3) baptism, after that we have to 4) "endure to the end". Enduring to the end does not imply perfect obedience. It implies that we continue in faith and repentance. I agree with your point that IF one could keep the commandments, then one would be perfect and perfect people don't need an atonement. Because we fall short because of sin and ungodliness, don't you think it impossible to "repent" and "endure to the end" because keeping the commandments is a requirement for these things (LDS terms)? In other words, if you're not keeping the commandments, then you haven't repented. If you're not keeping the commandments than you're not enduring to the end. So how do you bridge the gap? The atonement is conditional upon YOU KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS.
RichYoungRuler Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 25 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: The way you are interpreting that is not LDS Doctrine at all. Billions of people on this Earth have never even heard of Jesus Christ. Multiple billions more died before he was even on the Earth. God cannot blame us for what we do not know while in mortality, that would be unjust, and God would cease being God. And he has given us an eternity to overcome ignorance. But it seems you are unaware of these doctrines? In that case it might be essential to learn what we actually believe before you criticize us. I'm not telling you what you believe. If your D&C says something and you choose not to believe it or your church doesn't teach that, then that's for you to explain, not me.
Ahab Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: I agree with your point that IF one could keep the commandments, then one would be perfect and perfect people don't need an atonement. Because we fall short because of sin and ungodliness, don't you think it impossible to "repent" and "endure to the end" because keeping the commandments is a requirement for these things (LDS terms)? In other words, if you're not keeping the commandments, then you haven't repented. If you're not keeping the commandments than you're not enduring to the end. So how do you bridge the gap? The atonement is conditional upon YOU KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS. It's been explained to you but it seems you would just rather not believe what we have told you, even when what we are telling you is in agreement with the scriptures. We need to try our best to keep the commandments, denying ourselves of all ungodliness, and when we mess up, if we do, by sinning again after we have determined not to commit any more sins, we repent and confess our sins to God and then just keep on going. That doesn't mean we didn't sin when we did, though. We did sin, even after we said we wouldn't sin anymore, so we need to do something about that, which is to repent and to confess our sins to God. At which point he will forgive us and cleanse us from our sins. But we have to have entered into a covenant with God to deny ourselves of all ungodliness and accept the atonement of our Savior, accepting him as our Lord and being determined to do his will as well as we can. And when we mess up, if we do, we repent and keep on going. I don't know what anyone else could say to make this more plain for you. I think you just need to believe it as the way it really works. Get into the scriptures and you'll see this is the message. This is how the atonement is supposed to work in our lives. And all we can do is the best we can do, with our Lord to help us and take care of what we can't take care of ourselves, even though we are doing our best. Edited February 25, 2020 by Ahab
MustardSeed Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 4 hours ago, Ahab said: Maybe you just need to keep better track of your progress, or try harder. This is the utmost arrogant invitation I have come across in a long while. 1
MiserereNobis Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 10 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: This is the utmost arrogant invitation I have come across in a long while. It's classic Ahab. But let's not forget, he hasn't sinned in 5 years, including the sin of pride... 2
Ahab Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, MustardSeed said: This is the utmost arrogant invitation I have come across in a long while. I meant maybe you think you sin every day but in reality you really don't. Maybe there are some days you don't sin but for some reason you're under an allusion that you sin every day when that doesn't really jive with reality. Or maybe you really do sin every day,, which would be terrible, and since disciples of Jesus Christ are supposed to be denying themselves of all ungodliness, you really need to work on stepping it up there, bro. Just saying. I'm not the one causing you to sin, when you do sin, and the devil isn't making you do anything either. We each need to take responsibility for our own actions, and you can keep yourself from sinning if you really don't want to. Edited February 25, 2020 by Ahab
Ahab Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 58 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: It's classic Ahab. But let's not forget, he hasn't sinned in 5 years, including the sin of pride... I'm actually surprised nobody is calling me out and asking me why it hasn't been longer. Why just the last 5 years. Why not the last 10, or 20, or 30? I've almost 59 years old now. I'm actually a bit ashamed I haven't avoided sin for longer than 5 years. Or at least I don't think I have. Time flies though and I don't really want to back track through my past to try to figure out when was the last time I committed a sin. I could have done much better, if I had wanted to. Maybe it's because I am getting up there in years though that I am starting to get serious about preparing myself for the day when I will see our Savior. Apparently this was the best I could actually do. Edited February 25, 2020 by Ahab
pogi Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 1 hour ago, RichYoungRuler said: I agree with your point that IF one could keep the commandments, then one would be perfect and perfect people don't need an atonement. Because we fall short because of sin and ungodliness, don't you think it impossible to "repent" and "endure to the end" because keeping the commandments is a requirement for these things (LDS terms)? In other words, if you're not keeping the commandments, then you haven't repented. If you're not keeping the commandments than you're not enduring to the end. So how do you bridge the gap? The atonement is conditional upon YOU KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS. Like I said, perfection will not be seen in mortality. We have a long time to work out our salvation before the Lord. He have the rest of our lives, and the rest of the millennium before final judgment. 1
Ahab Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 3 minutes ago, pogi said: Like I said, perfection will not be seen in mortality. We have a long time to work out our salvation before the Lord. He have the rest of our lives, and the rest of the millennium before final judgment. We're not supposed to wait that long to stop sinning though and the sooner we stop sinning, the better.
pogi Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 10 minutes ago, Ahab said: We're not supposed to wait that long to stop sinning though and the sooner we stop sinning, the better. Well, some of us have to work at it harder then you do I suppose. I can't seem to love perfectly. That one will take me some time. Until then, I find myself repenting quite regularly in preparation for the sacrament. 2
Ahab Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 1 hour ago, pogi said: Well, some of us have to work at it harder then you do I suppose. I can't seem to love perfectly. That one will take me some time. Until then, I find myself repenting quite regularly in preparation for the sacrament. We're supposed to repent from sinning. Loving others as much as you can is not a sin even if that means you aren't loving others as much as our Savior loves them, or as much as you might be able to later. We can only do as much as we can, in the moment, the eternal now. Don't beat yourself up for not being perfect, just work on it as much as you can.
pogi Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Ahab said: We're supposed to repent from sinning. Loving others as much as you can is not a sin even if that means you aren't loving others as much as our Savior loves them, or as much as you might be able to later. We can only do as much as we can, in the moment, the eternal now. Don't beat yourself up for not being perfect, just work on it as much as you can. I don’t beat myself up. I have no use for toxic shame. But if I don’t feel remorse and repent for the short-comings and fault that I see in my relationships, then progression is impossible. If you humbly ask the Lord with open ears and heart to show you what needs to be repented of in your life in order for progression to continue unhindered, he will gladly show you. Edited February 26, 2020 by pogi 4
The Nehor Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 1 hour ago, Ahab said: I'm actually surprised nobody is calling me out and asking me why it hasn't been longer. Why just the last 5 years. Why not the last 10, or 20, or 30? I've almost 59 years old now. I'm actually a bit ashamed I haven't avoided sin for longer than 5 years. Or at least I don't think I have. Time flies though and I don't really want to back track through my past to try to figure out when was the last time I committed a sin. I could have done much better, if I had wanted to. Maybe it's because I am getting up there in years though that I am starting to get serious about preparing myself for the day when I will see our Savior. Apparently this was the best I could actually do. I sometimes wish I was ignorant enough and not self-aware enough to be this self-confident. 4
mfbukowski Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 3 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said: I'm not telling you what you believe. If your D&C says something and you choose not to believe it or your church doesn't teach that, then that's for you to explain, not me. I explained it in my answer to you but I guess you didn't understand it Of course you cannot be saved by Jesus Christ if you've never heard of Jesus Christ. That is what that scripture means, that you cannot be saved by ignorance about Jesus Christ. Is that clear enough for you? Fortunately we posit a mechanism by which everyone will have heard of Jesus Christ, and that is through the temple ordinances and eternal progression. Our faith is quite sophisticated philosophically and covers all the objections raised by critcs especially evangelicals who do not know what they are arguing against, and never get it right, because they tend to be fundamentalists who tend to take everything literally as you apparently did with that scripture Passage. If you don't want to miss being saved because of ignorance perhaps you should find out more about what we believe
mfbukowski Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 Gosh. I forgot to wear my toxic waste space suit today. It's getting pretty thick in here.
mfbukowski Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 23 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I sometimes wish I was ignorant enough and not self-aware enough to be this self-confident. Oh, there will be more to come.
mfbukowski Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 3 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said: I agree with your point that IF one could keep the commandments, then one would be perfect and perfect people don't need an atonement. Because we fall short because of sin and ungodliness, don't you think it impossible to "repent" and "endure to the end" because keeping the commandments is a requirement for these things (LDS terms)? In other words, if you're not keeping the commandments, then you haven't repented. If you're not keeping the commandments than you're not enduring to the end. So how do you bridge the gap? The atonement is conditional upon YOU KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS. Fourth repitition: Eons to perfect oneself. That's how you bridge the gap. You don't even listen well enough to know when you've got it totally wrong.
MustardSeed Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 3 hours ago, Ahab said: Or maybe you really do sin every day,, which would be terrible, and since disciples of Jesus Christ are supposed to be denying themselves of all ungodliness, you really need to work on stepping it up there, bro. Yes I sin daily. I do my best but I’m human. And by the way, also a woman. Your directives are entertaining. 1
RichYoungRuler Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 14 hours ago, pogi said: I don’t beat myself up. I have no use for toxic shame. But if I don’t feel remorse and repent for the short-comings and fault that I see in my relationships, then progression is impossible. If you humbly ask the Lord with open ears and heart to show you what needs to be repented of in your life in order for progression to continue unhindered, he will gladly show you. The point was that the LDS concept of repentance is impossible for anyone to achieve because if you sin ONE TIME, then you're not keeping the commandments which means you haven't repented (D&C 58:43), you do not have remission of sins (Moroni 8:25), you cannot access grace (Moroni 10:32) and you're not enduring to the end (D&C 14:7). You've been tricked into thinking that your works will somehow help you when stand before the judgement seat of Jesus Christ.
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