Personal Relationship With Jesus Christ

[Ahab]

6 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

...You'll do anything to try to save yourself and chase after salvation

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

6 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

Anyone who has chosen to believe that salvation depends upon obedience to the laws and ordinances, can't claim they do anything out of a love for Heavenly Father or the Savior. 

Our Savior said that if we love him we should show it by keeping his commandments.  Do you do that?  You don't talk as if you do.

6 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

The real reason commandment keepers try in vain to keep the commandments is they selfishly want to save your own skin.

Or because they love their Savior.  Have you thought of that before?

[RichYoungRuler]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The problem with that kind of heaven is the kind of losers they would have to let in would quickly spoil it. Ever spent a lot of time around people who go around lamenting how terrible they are and doing nothing about it? They are amongst the worst kinds of people.

Harlots and Publicans, not commandment keepers, enter into the kingdom of heaven because they simply believe.  

[RichYoungRuler]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

Ugh, it is so annoying when people try to interpret our scriptures for us and tell us what we believe!  It doesn't matter what we say, they will only hear what they want to hear. 

Repent again.  Simple!

Do you believe that "forsaking sin" and "keeping the commandments" is a requirement for repentance?

So what does that mean if you do not forsake sin and/or keep the commandments?

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

Do you believe that "forsaking sin" and "keeping the commandments" is a requirement for repentance?

So what does that mean if you do not forsake sin and/or keep the commandments?

You should ask God that question.  Ask him what he wants you to do.  Or read what he has said in the scriptures.  You sound like you don't understand very much and need to focus on learning rather than trying to teach others

Edited February 26, 2020 by Ahab

[RichYoungRuler]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

Why do you diminish and speak poorly of God's works and commands? 

I certainly don't diminish God's works and commands, but I do diminish anyone who claims they can somehow appease God by doing something during mortality.

You don't comprehend the condition of your soul, but seek desperately in vain to clean up yourself through personal worthiness.  Without Jesus Christ in you, your soul is dead and in sin.  For now, your body is alive, but you have "no life in you" (John 6:53).  

All of your works will never help your condition or appease the judge that awaits you.

[RichYoungRuler]

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we ^akeep his commandments.

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his ^acommandments, is a ^bliar, and the truth is not in him.

I'm not the first person to say that.  The apostle John said it, 1 John chapter 2

Only those souls that have received His perfection through belief in His words are those who keep the commandments.  

You're never going to be able to keep his commandments physically speaking.  If you sin, then you do not keep his commandment.

[pogi]

26 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

Do you believe that "forsaking sin" and "keeping the commandments" is a requirement for repentance?

Forsaking that particular sin and thereafter keeping that particular commandment, yes, that is what repentance is all about.

26 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

So what does that mean if you do not forsake sin and/or keep the commandments?

How many times do I need to answer this?

It means you repent as many times as it takes before you rid yourself of the sin.  If you relapse, you repent again.  If an addict never tried to quit because he knew that he would relapse (relapse is expected in recovery), then he would never achieve sobriety and recovery.  You work through and learn from relapse.  Sometimes forsaking something requires us to slip-up a dozen times or more.  There is nothing wrong with falling down in your effort, it is giving up (or not trying in the first place) that is the problem. 

It is better to fail in your attempt to forsake, then it is to forsake your repentance all together (as you do).

Should we teach our children to not even try to succeed because they will surely fail on their path towards success?  Nope.   They learn from their failures.  

Edited February 26, 2020 by pogi

[let’s roll]

4 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

Only those souls that have received His perfection through belief in His words are those who keep the commandments.  

You're never going to be able to keep his commandments physically speaking.  If you sin, then you do not keep his commandment.

I invite you to examine Stephen L. Robinson’s thoughts on these topics in his books Believing Christ and How Wide the Divide.  Both are thought provoking.

[RichYoungRuler]

21 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Our Savior said that if we love him we should show it by keeping his commandments.  Do you do that?  You don't talk as if you do.

Only those souls who have His perfection within them are capable of doing anything because they love him.

Everyone else does because they selfishly seek to save themselves.

28 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Or because they love their Savior.  Have you thought of that before?

Suppose you just won the largest single-ticket lottery ever - BILLIONS.  

And people show up at your door claiming they love you.

Do you believe what they claim or do they actually have ulterior motives for doing what they do?

The Third Article of Faith gives away the true motive for trying to obey the commandments: to be saved.

[RichYoungRuler]

24 minutes ago, Ahab said:

You should ask God that question.  Ask him what he wants you to do.  Or read what he has said in the scriptures.  You sound like you don't understand very much and need to focus on learning rather than trying to teach others

Jesus Christ was labeled a deceiver, a blasphemer and a heretic by the commandment keepers while he was on this Earth. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, RichYoungRuler said:

And, no surprise, you didn't answer the question.

You brought the carrot stick analogy up, but it fits perfectly.  You'll do anything to try to save yourself and chase after salvation

Anyone who has chosen to believe that salvation depends upon obedience to the laws and ordinances, can't claim they do anything out of a love for Heavenly Father or the Savior.  The real reason commandment keepers try in vain to keep the commandments is they selfishly want to save your own skin.

Baloney 

When I was an atheist I still wanted to be the best human being I could possibly be.  That's called "Humanism".

The only reason I am a theist is because God clobbered me. After 8 years of studying philosophy I found out that God was real in the simplest possible way. 

He showed me he was.

To be honest I've never heard a coherent definition of what "salvation" even means from Evangelicals.

I have some advice for you.

Get out of the mind reading business.

You are horrible at it.

Edited February 26, 2020 by mfbukowski

[RichYoungRuler]

15 minutes ago, pogi said:

Forsaking that particular sin and thereafter keeping that particular commandment, yes, that is what repentance is all about.

If you commit a sin again, then you didn't forsake it. 

Spencer W. Kimball said "There must be an abandonment of the transgression. It must be genuine and consistent and continuing. The Lord said in 1832: “… go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.” (D&C 82:7.)"

So ANY commandment you break means that all of your former sins return.

Do you not see how impossible this is?

23 minutes ago, pogi said:

How many times do I need to answer this?

It means you repent as many times as it takes before you rid yourself of the sin.  If you relapse, you repent again.  If an addict never tried to quit because he knew that he would relapse (relapse is expected in recovery), then he would never achieve sobriety and recovery.  You work through and learn from relapse.  Sometimes forsaking something requires us to slip-up a dozen times or more.  There is nothing wrong with falling down in your effort, it is giving up (or not trying in the first place) that is the problem. 

It is better to fail in your attempt to forsake, then it is to forsake your repentance all together (as you do).

Should we teach our children to not even try to succeed because they will surely fail on their path towards success?  Nope.   They learn from their failures.  

The point is if you're not forsaking sin, then you're not "repenting" (LDS) of sin.

I'm not suggesting to go out and sin.  Rather, the reality of your current predicament and need for a Savior.

[bluebell]

25 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

I invite you to examine Stephen L. Robinson’s thoughts on these topics in his books Believing Christ and How Wide the Divide.  Both are thought provoking.

I don't think that RYR is interested in learning what we actually believe or having his thoughts provoked.  His agenda seems to center on holding onto his ideas about what we believe at all costs, and in the face of everyone telling him he's wrong, so that his worldview on the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not challenged.  He's not, at this time anyway, able to handle actual discussion or considering anything.  

[Ahab]

29 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

Only those souls who have His perfection within them are capable of doing anything because they love him.

Do you claim to be one of those people?  Are you capable of obeying our Lord's commandments because you love him now?  

I am.  I obey him because I love him and because I love him and have his perfection in me I can now keep his commandments,  So are you like me or are you one of those people who claims to love him but you do not obey his commandments?

 

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't think that RYR is interested in learning what we actually believe or having his thoughts provoked.  His agenda seems to center on holding onto his ideas about what we believe at all costs, and in the face of everyone telling him he's wrong, so that his worldview on the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not challenged.  He's not, at this time anyway, able to handle actual discussion or considering anything.  

We'll see.  I think he's a tough nut to crack but I am not done yet trying to understand him.

[RichYoungRuler]

12 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

To be honest I've never heard a coherent definition of what "salvation" even means from Evangelicals.

I'm not an "evangelical", but I can tell you, they "you" are a living soul with a temporal body, and "salvation" means that you (soul) won't pay the same penalty for sin that your body will pay: the death penalty.  Being saved doesn't mean starting something or stopping something or joining a church or turning over a new leaf or keeping a list of commandments.  Those are good, but those are things your body does that don't do anything for your soul.

You need to realize that your soul is dead without Jesus Christ within you (soul).  Jesus Christ said this in John 6:53 "you have no life in you" because you have never received Him though belief in His words.

As soon as you choose to believe this His works will perfect you, not your own works, He will give you (soul) his life and His perfection.

At that very instant you choose to believe - to open the door of your heart to Him - He will come in and give you his free gift of life to your soul and make you alive within.  You (soul) instantly pass from death to life.

John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and ^abelieveth on him that sent me, hath everlasting ^blife, and shall not come into ^ccondemnation; but is passed from ^ddeath unto ^elife."

That's why I can say that I have His perfection, His eternal life and His worthiness with in me (soul).  There absolutely nothing more He can give me and anything I do now is because I love Him for giving me life.

[bluebell]

Just now, RichYoungRuler said:

I'm not an "evangelical", but I can tell you, they "you" are a living soul with a temporal body, and "salvation" means that you (soul) won't pay the same penalty for sin that your body will pay: the death penalty.  Being saved doesn't mean starting something or stopping something or joining a church or turning over a new leaf or keeping a list of commandments.  Those are good, but those are things your body does that don't do anything for your soul.

You need to realize that your soul is dead without Jesus Christ within you (soul).  Jesus Christ said this in John 6:53 "you have no life in you" because you have never received Him though belief in His words.

As soon as you choose to believe this His works will perfect you, not your own works, He will give you (soul) his life and His perfection.

At that very instant you choose to believe - to open the door of your heart to Him - He will come in and give you his free gift of life to your soul and make you alive within.  You (soul) instantly pass from death to life.

John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and ^abelieveth on him that sent me, hath everlasting ^blife, and shall not come into ^ccondemnation; but is passed from ^ddeath unto ^elife."

That's why I can say that I have His perfection, His eternal life and His worthiness with in me (soul).  There absolutely nothing more He can give me and anything I do now is because I love Him for giving me life.

Mark?  You back?  It's been a while.  I thought this sounded like you.

[MustardSeed]

Well, I believe we take the sacrament weekly because we sin often enough that we need the atonement to work for us constantly. 
 

Perhaps I misunderstand you ahab, but the way you talk about yourself suggests that you think that you don’t need to repent of anything, have not needed to for 5 years.  
 

I personally don’t believe that is possibly true, and in fact I find that way of thinking to “sound” either arrogant or spiritually uneducated.  Since I think you are educated and since you insist you are not arrogant (in spite of being accused of this previously) I wonder what I’m missing. 
Kind of. 

 

 

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Well, I believe we take the sacrament weekly because we sin often enough that we need the atonement to work for us constantly.

I take the sacrament because our Lord has asked us to remember him in that way and so that I can continue to have his spirit, the Holy Spirit, with me and to show that I am willing to take his name upon me.  The reasons stated in the prayer we say when we do it.

2 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Perhaps I misunderstand you ahab, but the way you talk about yourself suggests that you think that you don’t need to repent of anything, have not needed to for 5 years.  

That's an estimate, as I said, and I'm not really interested in pinpointing exactly how long it has been since the last time I committed a sin. The point of repentance is to change directions after committing a sin, to turn back to the Lord and obey him, instead of rebelling or continuing to rebel against him.  So if you/any person isn't sinning, then they don't need to repent.  That doesn't mean they don't need to continue to strive to be perfect, though.  Not having any sins to repent from isn't the same thing as being perfect. 

I am not 100% like our Father or our Lord, yet, and I am not saying I am.

2 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I personally don’t believe that is possibly true, and in fact I find that way of thinking to “sound” either arrogant or spiritually uneducated.  Since I think you are educated and since you insist you are not arrogant (in spite of being accused of this previously) I wonder what I’m missing. 
Kind of. 

Maybe just the idea that it really is possible to repent of every sin you have ever committed in the past while being determined to deny yourself of all ungodliness from now on.  Or maybe you understand the idea but for some reason don't think you can do it?

Sinning is a choice, and we can either choose to sin or we can choose to not commit a sin.  It's as simple as that. And I testify in the name of Jesus Christ that it really is possible to choose to not commit any sin.  Many people have done it, without even a desire to sin again.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, RichYoungRuler said:

I certainly don't diminish God's works and commands, but I do diminish anyone who claims they can somehow appease God by doing something during mortality.

Totally incoherent.

Is "accepting Jesus" something you do in morality?

Never mind.  This discussion is a waste of time.

Edited February 26, 2020 by mfbukowski

[pogi]

49 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

So ANY commandment you break means that all of your former sins return.

Maybe this is where the disconnect is.  Are you suggesting that if I repent for stealing a lollipop one day, and then lie the next day, that my former sin of stealing the lollipop returns?  Is that how you are interpreting things?

 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, RichYoungRuler said:

 anything I do now is because I love him

Does that include disobeying him?

[pogi]

1 hour ago, let’s roll said:

I invite you to examine Stephen L. Robinson’s thoughts on these topics in his books Believing Christ and How Wide the Divide.  Both are thought provoking.

That would imply that he really wants to understand what we believe though. 

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Ahab said:

Maybe we're just looking at this from 2 different perspectives, and from a different understanding of words while still being in agreement.  I don't think so, though. I use the word repentance only to refer to changing direction, as in changing from committing a sin to no longer sinning.  You seem to use it to refer to intensity, as well, as in going from good to better or best, which to my mind isn't about repentance but about becoming more perfect.

You are welcome to believe whatever you like but you should know the apostles disagree with you here.

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You are welcome to believe whatever you like but you should know the apostles disagree with you here.

I'm curious to know why you think so.  I'm sure all of them have gone at least 5 years since the last time they committed a sin, which would essentially amount to rebelling against the Lord.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Ahab