The Nehor Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said: Harlots and Publicans, not commandment keepers, enter into the kingdom of heaven because they simply believe. You seem to have the misconception that Jesus thought the Pharisees and Sadduccees and all the others were commandment keepers. I would recommend a reread of the Gospels on that point. His comments were more along the line of them focusing on trivialities instead of more important laws with Jesus telling them they should keep both. The only contempt for commandments he showed were their unauthorized “additions” to the Law. Edited February 27, 2020 by The Nehor 3
The Nehor Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 5 minutes ago, Ahab said: I'm curious to know why you think so. I'm sure all of them have gone at least 5 years since the last time they committed a sin, which would essentially amount to rebelling against the Lord. Maybe they have (doubt it) but I am betting they repent daily to improve. As people grow in spiritual strength they receive new commandments and new instruction of things to give up or to do or to change. Repentance is moving beyond those things as well as the more blatant sins like adultery, theft, and being a snappish jerk (my besetting sin). 2
Ahab Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 5 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Maybe they have (doubt it) but I am betting they repent daily to improve. As people grow in spiritual strength they receive new commandments and new instruction of things to give up or to do or to change. Repentance is moving beyond those things as well as the more blatant sins like adultery, theft, and being a snappish jerk (my besetting sin). As I said, repentance is needed only to change from disobedience to obedience, again. We were given a clean slate to start with and we only need to repent when we mess up, but while striving and being determined not to mess up. Hopefully it's a snappy comeback and we're not disobedient for very long so that after confessing our sins to God, and to bishops if necessary, we're back to having a clean slate again, still determined and striving not to mess up again but hopefully with more resolve seeing how we messed up and that wasn't a good thing to do. Improving doesn't require repentance unless a sin has been holding us back, and once we've got that sin taken care of we can improve and improve and continue to improve even more without any need to sin to be able to improve anymore. I hope someone talks about this, again, in General Conference, again. It gets covered every so often but I'm sure there are a lot of people who would benefit from hearing it again, and again, and again....
The Nehor Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 2 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said: I certainly don't diminish God's works and commands, but I do diminish anyone who claims they can somehow appease God by doing something during mortality. You don't comprehend the condition of your soul, but seek desperately in vain to clean up yourself through personal worthiness. Without Jesus Christ in you, your soul is dead and in sin. For now, your body is alive, but you have "no life in you" (John 6:53). All of your works will never help your condition or appease the judge that awaits you. That part I agree with......mostly. Nothing I do will appease the demands of justice for what I am and what I have done. Fortunately I have an advocate who has given me a goal less than complete perfection in this life from start to finish willing to plead my case and willing to make covenants with me to absolve me of my sins because He can bear them and dispose of them for me and with me. 2
The Nehor Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said: Only those souls who have His perfection within them are capable of doing anything because they love him. Everyone else does because they selfishly seek to save themselves. Suppose you just won the largest single-ticket lottery ever - BILLIONS. And people show up at your door claiming they love you. Do you believe what they claim or do they actually have ulterior motives for doing what they do? The Third Article of Faith gives away the true motive for trying to obey the commandments: to be saved. That is just silly. The idea that we do things for one motive alone is ridiculous. If I hug someone at a funeral partially because I need comfort and partially because I see they need comfort are my motives somehow impure? Even your own strange soteriology would suggest you would love God out of gratitude for what He did which is not pure love on its own. The most righteous and devoted servants of God who have ever lived will rhapsodize about God's goodness and beauty and then turn minutes later to plead for absolution. Anyone who understands God at all knows it is impossible to love Him disinterestedly. Your lottery example also shows the vast humility of God. God will accept anyone who is trying even if their motives are not pure. In an ideal world we would all reflexively turn to God as the best thing but God will take the Prodigal who comes back only because he has nowhere else to go or the fearful whose only real motive is fear of hell. I do not think those motives will exalt anyone by any means but God is willing to condescend to work with someone coming to Him on such paltry and mercenary terms with the intent to raise them above them to a higher state. The oft-used metaphor of Israel being an unfaithful wife chasing her lovers (with very odd sexual anatomies in some passages) while the longsuffering husband waits and endures for her to come home is amazingly accurate. Many use God as a resource of last resort and then run off unfaithfully to others as soon as the crisis is passed but even then God will try to raise them up. Edited February 27, 2020 by The Nehor 3
The Nehor Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 20 minutes ago, Ahab said: As I said, repentance is needed only to change from disobedience to obedience, again. Improving doesn't require repentance unless a sin has been holding us back, and once we've got that sin taken care of we can improve and improve and continue to improve even more without any need to sin to be able to improve anymore. No and no. Quote "Thus, when Jesus asks you and me to “repent,” He is inviting us to change our mind, our knowledge, our spirit—even the way we breathe. He is asking us to change the way we love, think, serve, spend our time, treat our wives, teach our children, and even care for our bodies. Nothing is more liberating, more ennobling, or more crucial to our individual progression than is a regular, daily focus on repentance. Repentance is not an event; it is a process. It is the key to happiness and peace of mind. When coupled with faith, repentance opens our access to the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Whether you are diligently moving along the covenant path, have slipped or stepped from the covenant path, or can’t even see the path from where you are now, I plead with you to repent. Experience the strengthening power of daily repentance—of doing and being a little better each day. When we choose to repent, we choose to change! We allow the Savior to transform us into the best version of ourselves. We choose to grow spiritually and receive joy—the joy of redemption in Him.8 When we choose to repent, we choose to become more like Jesus Christ!" -President Nelson, April 2019 General Conference 3
Ahab Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: No and no. -President Nelson, April 2019 General Conference Eh. semantics. again. But at least he did point out that repentance is all about changing from a sinful state to a better state than a person was in when they needed to repent. Maybe next time he'll talk more about how we don't need to repent if we're not doing anything wrong and are simply trying to get better at doing something.
MustardSeed Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 Ahab... Oh I get it. You might be thinking the type of sins which require repentance that requires a bishops interview. In that case I too haven’t sinned ..,,since I was 22. Looooong time ago. Today I sinned in the following ways: I said a swear, I gossiped and I turned down an invite to serve. I did a lot of things really well too... but thank goodness for the atonement and for sacrament meeting. Otherwise the smallest of sins would have me lost to the devil 👿. That’s what I’m told by James E. Talmage, anyway. I trust that we are talking about two very different things....unless of course you are one of the three nephites. Or maybe God himself. Here to test us. I’ll assume we both are in the same page that you are not free of fault. 1
The Nehor Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Ahab said: Eh. semantics. again. But at least he did point out that repentance is all about changing from a sinful state to a better state than a person was in when they needed to repent. Maybe next time he'll talk more about how we don't need to repent if we're not doing anything wrong and are simply trying to get better at doing something. You are welcome to join the rest of us using the English language and Gospel language differently and more correctly over here at any time. Also note that President Nelson is defining what the Savior means when He says that so you probably might want to repent and agree with Jesus and the Prophet. You end with a plea for President Nelson to contradict himself? Really? "Repent every day!" "Repent only if you do something explicitly wrong that day!" No, not seeing it happening. This is not the only talk on repentance like this. It goes back a long ways. Edited February 27, 2020 by The Nehor 2
Bernard Gui Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said: Only those souls that have received His perfection through belief in His words are those who keep the commandments. You're never going to be able to keep his commandments physically speaking. If you sin, then you do not keep his commandment. Are we predestined to either eternal salvation or eternal damnation? Does God cause sinners to repent? Can a person who has been saved fall from grace? Is belief an act of obedience? Edited February 27, 2020 by Bernard Gui 2
RichYoungRuler Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 20 hours ago, Ahab said: Do you claim to be one of those people? Are you capable of obeying our Lord's commandments because you love him now? I know it's a bit of a strange concept, but yes, I do believe that my soul has been made sinless because His perfection has been imputed to me the moment I chose to believe. I have His perfection, His worthiness and His inheritance because I have Him living within me through belief in Him (not myself). Because I have been adopted into His family and have His righteousness (i.e. sinlessness) imputed upon me already, I desire to physically try to obey His commandments because I love Him for what He did, not because I desire anything more from Him - I already have everything - there is no higher salvation I could possibly obtain or no greater gift I could receive that what He has given to me already. 20 hours ago, Ahab said: I am. I obey him because I love him and because I love him and have his perfection in me I can now keep his commandments, So are you like me or are you one of those people who claims to love him but you do not obey his commandments? I have absolutely no doubt that you love the Savior, and you try to obey the commandments because you love Him. I know this. But I also know that you want Him to let you live in His "Celestial Kingdom". Right? Let's be honest here.
RichYoungRuler Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 20 hours ago, Ahab said: That's an estimate, as I said, and I'm not really interested in pinpointing exactly how long it has been since the last time I committed a sin. The point of repentance is to change directions after committing a sin, to turn back to the Lord and obey him, instead of rebelling or continuing to rebel against him. So if you/any person isn't sinning, then they don't need to repent. That doesn't mean they don't need to continue to strive to be perfect, though. Not having any sins to repent from isn't the same thing as being perfect. I am not 100% like our Father or our Lord, yet, and I am not saying I am. Are you doing all that you can do?
RichYoungRuler Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 20 hours ago, pogi said: Maybe this is where the disconnect is. Are you suggesting that if I repent for stealing a lollipop one day, and then lie the next day, that my former sin of stealing the lollipop returns? Is that how you are interpreting things? "Unto the soul who sinneth shall the former sins return" is your doctrine, not mine. When you commit a sin, did you forsake sin? When you commit a sin, did you repent of sin? When you commit a sin, are you doing all that you can do? You claim "re-repentance", but there is no such thing. If you have to repent again, then you never repented in the first place. Spencer W Kimball said it best "There is one crucial test of repentance. This is abandonment of the sin." Miracle of Forgiveness Do you not see the need for a Savior from all of this?
pogi Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 9 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: "Unto the soul who sinneth shall the former sins return" is your doctrine, not mine. When you commit a sin, did you forsake sin? When you commit a sin, did you repent of sin? When you commit a sin, are you doing all that you can do? You claim "re-repentance", but there is no such thing. If you have to repent again, then you never repented in the first place. Spencer W Kimball said it best "There is one crucial test of repentance. This is abandonment of the sin." Miracle of Forgiveness Do you not see the need for a Savior from all of this? Soooo..."yes"?
RichYoungRuler Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 19 hours ago, The Nehor said: If I hug someone at a funeral partially because I need comfort and partially because I see they need comfort are my motives somehow impure? Depends. Do your actions at the funeral have the potential of making you an heir of unfathomable wealth? If so, then I'd say your motives are totally impure. What would you say?
RichYoungRuler Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 11 minutes ago, pogi said: Soooo..."yes"? If telling a lie is a sin, then yes.
The Nehor Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: Depends. Do your actions at the funeral have the potential of making you an heir of unfathomable wealth? If so, then I'd say your motives are totally impure. What would you say? You are asking someone from the wrong faith. All of my actions have the potential of making me the heir of unfathomable wealth, power over the cosmos, and other claims that would make even a Scientologist blush. Edited February 27, 2020 by The Nehor
Ahab Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 40 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: I have absolutely no doubt that you love the Savior, and you try to obey the commandments because you love Him. I know this. But I also know that you want Him to let you live in His "Celestial Kingdom". Right? Let's be honest here. I love them so much, Jesus and our Father, that I want to be wherever they are and I want to do whatever they do. That's how much I love them. And I want everyone else to love them that much too. Is that wrong? Do you think I am wrong to want this? Don't you want everyone else to love them too and to want what they want? Do I feel any different than you?
The Nehor Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 43 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: I know it's a bit of a strange concept, but yes, I do believe that my soul has been made sinless because His perfection has been imputed to me the moment I chose to believe. I have His perfection, His worthiness and His inheritance because I have Him living within me through belief in Him (not myself). Because I have been adopted into His family and have His righteousness (i.e. sinlessness) imputed upon me already, I desire to physically try to obey His commandments because I love Him for what He did, not because I desire anything more from Him - I already have everything - there is no higher salvation I could possibly obtain or no greater gift I could receive that what He has given to me already. I have absolutely no doubt that you love the Savior, and you try to obey the commandments because you love Him. I know this. But I also know that you want Him to let you live in His "Celestial Kingdom". Right? Let's be honest here. Your teaching sounds nice and if Jesus had taught it I would even be tempted to believe it.
RichYoungRuler Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 13 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Are we predestined to either eternal salvation or eternal damnation? Does God cause sinners to repent? Can a person who has been saved fall from grace? Is belief an act of obedience? At any moment during mortality, anyone can choose to believe upon Jesus Christ and immediately receive His free gift of eternal perfection.
pogi Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 8 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: If telling a lie is a sin, then yes. We don't interpret it that way. What gives you the right to interpret our scripture (which you don't even believe in) for us? Give me a break!
The Nehor Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 9 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: At any moment during mortality, anyone can choose to believe upon Jesus Christ and immediately receive His free gift of eternal perfection. Done, woohoo. Now shut up you git! I sure don’t sound like an eternally perfect being but hey, perfect here. You wouldn’t understand what with being less than perfect. I would have the same concern expressed in that song but being perfect I must be perfectly humble as well. Wow, I am amazing. I am beginning to understand why those who believe this are such obnoxious people.
RichYoungRuler Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 5 minutes ago, Ahab said: I love them so much, Jesus and our Father, that I want to be wherever they are and I want to do whatever they do. That's how much I love them. And I want everyone else to love them that much too. Is that wrong? Do you think I am wrong to want this? Don't you want everyone else to love them too and to want what they want? Do I feel any different than you? Sounds perfectly legitimate to me - you'd be crazy if you didn't desire those things! I just think you're trying appease God with the wrong sacrifice - there's only one person's works he'll accept.
The Nehor Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 1 minute ago, RichYoungRuler said: Sounds perfectly legitimate to me - you'd be crazy if you didn't desire those things! I just think you're trying appease God with the wrong sacrifice - there's only one person's works he'll accept. I appreciate the compliment and you are right but I would ask you not to embarrass me like this in the future.
Ahab Posted February 27, 2020 Posted February 27, 2020 1 minute ago, RichYoungRuler said: I just think you're trying appease God with the wrong sacrifice - there's only one person's works he'll accept. I know that. I just do what I do because I love him and I want to somehow show him that I love him, and Jesus too.
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