RichYoungRuler Posted February 24, 2020 Posted February 24, 2020 On 2/21/2020 at 3:15 PM, Ahab said: No, that's just what I consider to be fake news. As long as I believe I am perfect, I am. Nope, didn't work. I am still a flawed person. Maybe I need to try to harder to believe it. Uggghhh!!!! Nope, didn't work. I am still a flawed person. Ask anyone around here and they'll tell you how flawed I am. Well, maybe not just anyone, but there are a lot of people around here who will attest to the idea that I am a flawed person. I just don't talk right, according to them. Ugggghhhhhhhhhh!!!! Nope, still not working. If it works for you, though, go with it. You'll find out if our Lord agrees with you, eventually. The "flawed person" you're referring to is your physical body. You are not just a lump of clay, but a living soul covered with a temporal physical body that will soon die. To have a "Personal relationship with Jesus Christ", one must first realize that your body and your soul are dead becuase of your sin. Then you must see that, because nothing you can do will EVER change that situation, you need a Savior. All who choose to believe His words receive HIM - His life and His perfection within their soul. Have you ever realized that your soul was dead? Has your soul ever passed from death unto life through belief in Jesus Christ? John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and abelieveth on him that sent me, hath everlasting blife, and shall not come into ccondemnation; but is passed from ddeath unto elife." Without Jesus Christ in you, your soul is dead in sin. Romans 8:10 "And if aChrist be in you, bthe body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of crighteousness." Ephesians 2:1 "And you hath he quickened, who were adead in trespasses and sins;"
RichYoungRuler Posted February 24, 2020 Posted February 24, 2020 41 minutes ago, pogi said: The soul has no choice in what the body does? The soul is guilt free? Just along for the ride? A puppet to the body? Do you not believe in a resurrection of the body? These are not pertinentant. Jesus Christ tells us those who hear His words and believe upon him immediately pass from death unto life (John 5:24). Do you believe in the instant resurrection and giving of life to one's soul through belief in Jesus Christ? 49 minutes ago, pogi said: You are the one who was trying to sell me on "Christ's perfection" as if it was some awesome thing I could have right now. Sell me on it! Sell me on what you think Christ's perfection looks like. You seem to be pretty excited about it so it shouldn't be hard to explain what it is to you. I am not sold if you think it doesn't make a difference as to what it actually means. If your definition of perfection is basically a free-pass-to-sin, then go sell someone else on this horrendous idea of perfection. There are those who hear His words and choose to believe and those who hear His words choose not believe, but there are those who will not hear His words. Your beliefs are your choice.
pogi Posted February 24, 2020 Posted February 24, 2020 15 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: These are not pertinentant. Pretty dang pertinent if you ask me. Is the soul accountable for the actions of the body or not? Kind of affects how one might chose to act, no? 25 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: Jesus Christ tells us those who hear His words and believe upon him immediately pass from death unto life (John 5:24). You mean, your interpretation tells us that. Not all Christian's interpret that passage the same. 2
Ahab Posted February 24, 2020 Posted February 24, 2020 52 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: The "flawed person" you're referring to is your physical body. You are not just a lump of clay, but a living soul covered with a temporal physical body that will soon die. We're close to agreement here. A soul is actually the combination of a spirit with a mortal body, or the complete person. When we're resurrected the 2 will no longer be separate but between now and then we're going to die, which is to say our spirit will separate from our mortal body, and then we'll be waiting until we are resurrected. Where we seem to disagree is that it seems to be your idea that our spirit is as perfect as the spirit of our Savior right now and that our mortal body is 100% responsible for the choices we make, including the sins that are done while our spirit is in our mortal body. My Lord has taught me that is false and a mistaken notion. We need to learn to master our mortal body, to learn to not give in to the temptations of the flesh, and that is done as we subject our mortal body to the will of our Father in heaven and our Lord Jesus Christ. We shouldn't blame every sin we commit on our body, as if our spirit has no choice but to go along with what feels good or tastes good to our mortal body. And we can do that by not giving in to every temptation we feel in our flesh. 52 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: To have a "Personal relationship with Jesus Christ", one must first realize that your body and your soul are dead because of your sin. Then you must see that, because nothing you can do will EVER change that situation, you need a Savior. All who choose to believe His words receive HIM - His life and His perfection within their soul. That's true. Sin separates us from communion with the spirit of Christ, and since we are the ones who commit sin whenever we do, we need to stop committing sin instead of continuing in sin and acting like committing sin doesn't affect our relationship with Jesus Christ. 52 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: Have you ever realized that your soul was dead? That it was, yes. It isn't dead anymore, though, because I have learned to subject my mortal body to my spirit and subject my spirit to the spirit of our Lord. 52 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: Has your soul ever passed from death unto life through belief in Jesus Christ? Yes, but it took more than a mere belief. Belief led to action and some of those actions involved resisting temptations, not falling into sin when I was tempted. And obeying our Lord's commands to repent and be baptized, and do other things he has commanded us to do. 52 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and abelieveth on him that sent me, hath everlasting blife, and shall not come into ccondemnation; but is passed from ddeath unto elife." Without Jesus Christ in you, your soul is dead in sin. That's true. We also need to be baptized as well as believe in Jesus Christ. Are you familiar with those scriptures? And receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Do you know what that is and how to do that? I can show you or direct you to others who can do that for you. 52 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: Romans 8:10 "And if aChrist be in you, bthe body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of crighteousness." Ephesians 2:1 "And you hath he quickened, who were adead in trespasses and sins;" Yes. Baptism represents a death to a life of sin and an awakening to a new way of life. Life without sin. Not everyone totally abandons sin after they are baptized so for some they need to keep working at it, repenting when necessary. But it is a way of life we covenant with God to live when we are baptized and we strive to do that as well as we can. Or at least we should. For some people baptism is like marriage and they seem to just forget about keeping their covenants to do what they covenanted to do when they first made the covenants, so some will actually walk away from the new life they covenanted with God to live and go back to their life of sin. We shouldn't do that, though. And we shouldn't act as if we have no control of whether or not we commit sin. We actually can resist temptations, with the help of Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. 1
RichYoungRuler Posted February 24, 2020 Posted February 24, 2020 46 minutes ago, pogi said: Pretty dang pertinent if you ask me. Is the soul accountable for the actions of the body or not? Kind of affects how one might chose to act, no? It is no longer I (soul) that do it (sin), but sin that dwelleth within me (body). The body sins and WILL die, but for those who have His life, their soul does not and cannot sin. Kind of does not matter how one might chose to act, no?
pogi Posted February 24, 2020 Posted February 24, 2020 31 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: Kind of does not matter how one might chose to act, no? That's what I thought. What a terrible thing to teach your children.
RichYoungRuler Posted February 24, 2020 Posted February 24, 2020 32 minutes ago, Ahab said: Where we seem to disagree is that it seems to be your idea that our spirit is as perfect as the spirit of our Savior right now and that our mortal body is 100% responsible for the choices we make, including the sins that are done while our spirit is in our mortal body. Those who don't have Jesus Christ, underestimate what it means to have Jesus Christ living within. There are those who have Jesus Christ and there are those who do not have Jesus Christ. How can one have Jesus Christ living within and not have His perfection? The disparity isn't about how to make the mortal body obey a list of do's and don'ts and hope that will somehow improve upon what Jesus Christ has given. The disparity is how He defines "Perfect" and how imperfect, sinful, ungodly and utterly unworthy we are - even on our very best of days - and no matter how perfect you think you might be, you're nowhere even close to His requirement for perfection. 46 minutes ago, Ahab said: That's true. Sin separates us from communion with the spirit of Christ, and since we are the ones who commit sin whenever we do, we need to stop committing sin instead of continuing in sin and acting like committing sin doesn't affect our relationship with Jesus Christ. You talk as if you've somehow stopped sinning. "We need to stop committing sin". If you sin, which you do, then you are continuing in sin which means, you have not repented, your former sins have returned, you have ungodliness, and you're not doing all that you can do. How does that affect your relationship with Jesus Christ? Your gospel is impossible! 51 minutes ago, Ahab said: That it was, yes. It isn't dead anymore, though, because I have learned to subject my mortal body to my spirit and subject my spirit to the spirit of our Lord. So you believe that your soul was made alive because you are trying to obey the commandments. Is that what you are saying? 53 minutes ago, Ahab said: Yes, but it took more than a mere belief. Belief led to action and some of those actions involved resisting temptations, not falling into sin when I was tempted. And obeying our Lord's commands to repent and be baptized, and do other things he has commanded us to do. But you still sin. You do not resist temptation as you claim. You have not denied yourself of all ungodliness. Am I right? 55 minutes ago, Ahab said: That's true. We also need to be baptized as well as believe in Jesus Christ. Are you familiar with those scriptures? And receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Do you know what that is and how to do that? I can show you or direct you to others who can do that for you. I don't recall seeing anything about being baptized or trying to obey commandments in that verse. In fact there are many other statements Jesus Christ Himself has made that support that we receive HIS life through belief alone and that baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost happens the moment one believes. Are you familiar with those scriptures? 57 minutes ago, Ahab said: Yes. Baptism represents a death to a life of sin and an awakening to a new way of life. Life without sin. Not everyone totally abandons sin after they are baptized so for some they need to keep working at it, repenting when necessary. But it is a way of life we covenant with God to live when we are baptized and we strive to do that as well as we can. Or at least we should. For some people baptism is like marriage and they seem to just forget about keeping their covenants to do what they covenanted to do when they first made the covenants, so some will actually walk away from the new life they covenanted with God to live and go back to their life of sin. We shouldn't do that, though. And we shouldn't act as if we have no control of whether or not we commit sin. We actually can resist temptations, with the help of Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. Again, you speak as if you are resisting temptation and I need to set the record straight. You sin, therefore you have not totally abandoned sin. Do you believe that keeping the commandments is a requirement for repentance?
RichYoungRuler Posted February 24, 2020 Posted February 24, 2020 1 minute ago, pogi said: 30 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: Kind of does not matter how one might chose to act, no? That's what I thought. What a terrible thing to teach your children. Your perfection requirement is completely un-achievable through the means which you've chosen to believe and you won't even consider how impossible it is. If you want a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, great - start by admitting that you're nowhere near as perfect as He requires and only He can give you His perfection. Admit that because you are not perfect, you need a savior to give you that which you cannot ever, ever, EVER come close to obtaining through obedience.
pogi Posted February 24, 2020 Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: Your perfection requirement is completely un-achievable through the means which you've chosen to believe and you won't even consider how impossible it is. I've considered it. You've simply failed to convince me. It is not impossible - you simply don't understand our doctrine. 14 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: If you want a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, great - start by admitting that you're nowhere near as perfect as He requires and only He can give you His perfection. Admit that because you are not perfect, you need a savior to give you that which you cannot ever, ever, EVER come close to obtaining through obedience. I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ - deep and profound, thank you very much. I do admit that I am not as perfect as he requires and that only he can give me his perfection. I also agree and admit that because I am not perfect, I need a savior to give me that which I cannot obtain through obedience alone. Edited February 24, 2020 by pogi
Ahab Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 43 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: Those who don't have Jesus Christ, underestimate what it means to have Jesus Christ living within. There are those who have Jesus Christ and there are those who do not have Jesus Christ. How can one have Jesus Christ living within and not have His perfection? None of us actually have Jesus living within us. Jesus is a person and his spirit is inseparably connected to his resurrected body so the closest we can come to having Jesus live with us is to receive communication from Him either directly or through the Holy Spirit, who is another person with a spirit who does not have either a mortal body or a resurrected body. But let's not get too technical here. We're talking about having a relationship with Jesus Christ and there is no need to agree on how he can have a relationship with us, exactly. My point is that we can have a relationship with Jesus Christ and still not be as perfect as he is, yet. It's not as if we can't have a relationship with him unless we are as perfect as he is. Quote The disparity isn't about how to make the mortal body obey a list of do's and don'ts and hope that will somehow improve upon what Jesus Christ has given. The disparity is how He defines "Perfect" and how imperfect, sinful, ungodly and utterly unworthy we are - even on our very best of days - and no matter how perfect you think you might be, you're nowhere even close to His requirement for perfection. That is a good point and I'm glad to see you make it. I was thinking you thought that if you had a relationship with Jesus, that meant you had to be as 100% perfect as he is, and I have been trying to tell you that isn't necessary right now, as long as you are working on it. Quote You talk as if you've somehow stopped sinning. "We need to stop committing sin". I have stopped. It has been quite a while since I have last sinned. How about for you? How long has it been since you have sinned? The closer we come to becoming like Jesus the less we should want to sin, until at some point we totally stop. Now, I'm not saying that I won't ever commit a sin, again, sometime in the future. I might, but I am determined to not ever sin again. Hopefully I'll make it. Hope the best for me. And may the Spirit of our Lord be with you, too. And always. As much as possible. Quote If you sin, which you do, then you are continuing in sin which means, you have not repented, your former sins have returned, you have ungodliness, and you're not doing all that you can do. IF I do, in the future, yes, that would be true. But I have repented and if I sin again in the future I will repent then, again, too. It's not like I am sinning all the time, constantly sinning, or planning to sin later. I am determined not to, and you should avoid it as much as you can too. Quote How does that affect your relationship with Jesus Christ? What? Not sinning? It makes my relationship with him better. Closer than I would be than if I were sinning right now. No guilt makes it easier, I think. But I am not perfect at doing every good thing so I still need to work on doing things better and better. Quote Your gospel is impossible! I really don't understand what you think is so impossible about it? Haven't you ever gone without sinning? Are you sinning right now? What is so impossible about thinking that you can stop doing whatever sin you are doing? It's just a choice, and you can choose not to do it. Quote So you believe that your soul was made alive because you are trying to obey the commandments. Is that what you are saying? Well, that's part of it. If I had heard the gospel but had no desire to stop sinning then I don't think my relationship with Jesus would be on good terms right now. By' accepting Jesus I accepted his way of life, as the way I want to live, too. And I do, as well as I can. Quote But you still sin. You do not resist temptation as you claim. You have not denied yourself of all ungodliness. Am I right? No you are not right. I resist temptation whenever I get it and I am currently denying myself of all ungodliness. I haven't done any ungodly thing in quite a while now. As of now, I can 100% say I am not sinning in any way whatsoever. Can you say the same thing, honestly? Quote I don't recall seeing anything about being baptized or trying to obey commandments in that verse. Yes I noticed that you didn't quote a verse that said baptism is important. Would you like me to find that scripture for you or do you think you can find it for yourself? Quote In fact there are many other statements Jesus Christ Himself has made that support that we receive HIS life through belief alone and that baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost happens the moment one believes. Are you familiar with those scriptures? Alone? No, not alone. Yes If you know of any that say that please quote them for me and tell me where you found them. What I believe is that belief alone is not enough. Belief must be accompanied by action in order to do any good. Let me know if you need help finding scriptures that mention that and I'll do what I can to help you. Quote Again, you speak as if you are resisting temptation and I need to set the record straight. You sin, therefore you have not totally abandoned sin. You should let me speak for myself about whether or not I commit sin. You don't really know me very well at all. And I have already told you that I haven't sinned in quite a while now. I don't remember how long it has been, exactly, because I'd rather not try to remember, but it has been a while. Maybe a year or two, or 3, maybe 5? I really don't know or remember. Sin is something I hate and since I hate it I really don't like to do it so that probably helps me to avoid it. And it's not something I recommend, either. Nothing good about it. Quote Do you believe that keeping the commandments is a requirement for repentance? Do you mean a prerequisite? People don't need to repent unless there is something they need to repent from, like from being disobedient in some way. So NOT keeping any of the commandments would be why repentance would be required. Edited February 25, 2020 by Ahab
MustardSeed Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 I was under the impression that all people sin daily and constantly need the atonement. I had no idea someone could “stop” sinning . A whole year of perfection! Maybe even 5? Amazing. 1
MiserereNobis Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Ahab said: And I have already told you that I haven't sinned in quite a while now. I don't remember how long it has been, exactly, because I'd rather not try to remember, but it has been a while. Maybe a year or two, or 3, maybe 5? Whoa, really? You haven't sinned in maybe 5 years? 5 years of utter perfection. 5 years of living exactly as God and Jesus would live? Every word, every thought, every deed, 100% perfect? Edited February 25, 2020 by MiserereNobis
RichYoungRuler Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 13 hours ago, Ahab said: I have stopped. It has been quite a while since I have last sinned. How about for you? How long has it been since you have sinned? The closer we come to becoming like Jesus the less we should want to sin, until at some point we totally stop. I must ask, do you know all of the commandments?
RichYoungRuler Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 13 hours ago, pogi said: I've considered it. You've simply failed to convince me. It is not impossible - you simply don't understand our doctrine. I understand that Jesus Christ is your helper, your facilitator. What divine process do you trust to make up the vast gap between your current level of perfection and that which Heavenly Father requires? What is it that you're hoping will bridge the gap? Please tell me.
pogi Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 7 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: I understand that Jesus Christ is your helper, your facilitator. What divine process do you trust to make up the vast gap between your current level of perfection and that which Heavenly Father requires? What is it that you're hoping will bridge the gap? Please tell me. The atonement of Jesus Christ. 1
Anakin7 Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 GRACE which is directly connected to The Atonement which is THE CENTRAL DOCTRINE. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 1
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 2 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said: I understand that Jesus Christ is your helper, your facilitator. What divine process do you trust to make up the vast gap between your current level of perfection and that which Heavenly Father requires? What is it that you're hoping will bridge the gap? Please tell me. Eons of progression
Ahab Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: Whoa, really? You haven't sinned in maybe 5 years? 5 years of utter perfection. 5 years of living exactly as God and Jesus would live? Every word, every thought, every deed, 100% perfect? Having no sin doesn't equate to perfection. I haven't committed any sins in quite a long time, maybe that long, but that doesn't mean I don't have anything else to work on to become a better person. Sometimes I'm not as patient with people as I could be, but I'm still patient while I am working on being more patient. I still make a lot of typos when I type, too, which you may not have noticed because I usually go back and correct my typing when I see a problem. And I'm always trying to improve myself, to do more and more good things, and get better at my time management too, but there really isn't enough time in the day to do every good thing I could be doing, anyway, so all I can do is the best I can do with what I have to work with. Plus I have a job I need to go to so I can make some money to help sustain myself and my family and anyone else I can help with money, which cuts down on other good things I could be doing. So, no, I"m not perfect yet, but I still keep on trying and I am determined to make it, eventually, with my Lord covering every sin I have ever committed and any sin I may yet commit in the future even though I will continue to strive to never commit any more sins in the future. Can't you relate, maybe, at least a little bit? Edited February 25, 2020 by Ahab
Ahab Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 3 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said: I must ask, do you know all of the commandments? All I am aware of. If there are any commands God hasn't given me yet, or to the general public that I am not aware of, I'll obey those as well as I can whenever I find out about them.
Ahab Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 12 hours ago, MustardSeed said: I was under the impression that all people sin daily and constantly need the atonement. I had no idea someone could “stop” sinning . A whole year of perfection! Maybe even 5? Amazing. Constantly need the atonement, yes. The atonement does more than cover our sins. It also helps us to become as perfect as our Father in heaven, and as our Lord is now too , by giving us access to our Father again, through Jesus Christ. And makes our resurrection possible. And no, not everybody sins every day. Some can go days without sinning, even weeks, and months, and yes years too. Maybe you just need to keep better track of your progress, or try harder. Once you see that you can get through a whole day without sinning, you may want to keep that up. It still won't mean you are perfect, though. But it will mean you didn't do anything evil, intentionally..
RichYoungRuler Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Ahab said: All I am aware of. Ignorance of the law has never excused anyone from the necessity of obeying the law. After all, no one can be saved in ignorance, right? D&C 131:6 "It is impossible for a man to be asaved in bignorance." I have a hard time believing anyone can obeying the commandments they do know, much less those which they are "not aware". For example, Moroni 10:32 commands that you "cdeny yourselves of all ungodliness;". If you still sin, then you're not denying yourself of all ungodliness.
pogi Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 41 minutes ago, Ahab said: Constantly need the atonement, yes. The atonement does more than cover our sins. It also helps us to become as perfect as our Father in heaven, and as our Lord is now too , by giving us access to our Father again, through Jesus Christ. And makes our resurrection possible. And no, not everybody sins every day. Some can go days without sinning, even weeks, and months, and yes years too. Maybe you just need to keep better track of your progress, or try harder. Once you see that you can get through a whole day without sinning, you may want to keep that up. It still won't mean you are perfect, though. But it will mean you didn't do anything evil, intentionally.. Are you perfect in obedience with the two great commandments? Those are the ones that we seem to struggle with the most. We tend to be selfish creatures. I am not even close to being perfect in obedience with those commandments - that's what I tend to repent of the most. I love my wife, yet I am still selfish at times with her. You never have that problem? No sin of pride? 1
MiserereNobis Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 2 hours ago, Ahab said: Having no sin doesn't equate to perfection. I haven't committed any sins in quite a long time, maybe that long, but that doesn't mean I don't have anything else to work on to become a better person. Sometimes I'm not as patient with people as I could be, but I'm still patient while I am working on being more patient. I still make a lot of typos when I type, too, which you may not have noticed because I usually go back and correct my typing when I see a problem. And I'm always trying to improve myself, to do more and more good things, and get better at my time management too, but there really isn't enough time in the day to do every good thing I could be doing, anyway, so all I can do is the best I can do with what I have to work with. Plus I have a job I need to go to so I can make some money to help sustain myself and my family and anyone else I can help with money, which cuts down on other good things I could be doing. So, no, I"m not perfect yet, but I still keep on trying and I am determined to make it, eventually, with my Lord covering every sin I have ever committed and any sin I may yet commit in the future even though I will continue to strive to never commit any more sins in the future. Can't you relate, maybe, at least a little bit? I think you and I are using different definitions of sin. I guess we'll leave it at that 2
Ahab Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: Ignorance of the law has never excused anyone from the necessity of obeying the law. Man's ways are not God's ways. In God's system, as I understand it, a person has to know what a particular law of God is before being held accountable for not obeying it. Sin is to know what God's will is and then to refuse to obey it anyway. Quote After all, no one can be saved in ignorance, right? D&C 131:6 "It is impossible for a man to be asaved in bignorance." Right, so to be saved you need to know what to do to be saved. And if you don't know, you are not held accountable for not knowing, but you also can't be saved if you don't know how to be saved. So if you want to be saved, or to find out what salvation is, God must somehow inform you of how to be saved, and what salvation is, and then it would be up to you to do whatever it took to be saved if you decided that you wanted to be saved. Quote I have a hard time believing anyone can obeying the commandments they do know, much less those which they are "not aware". Obeying is the opposite of rebelling and choosing to sin. If you don't know what to do, you need God to somehow inform you, and if you do know then you just need to do it, otherwise you will be a rebel against God rather than one of his disciples. Quote For example, Moroni 10:32 commands that you "cdeny yourselves of all ungodliness;". If you still sin, then you're not denying yourself of all ungodliness. Right, and if you choose to not sin, when you are being tempted to sin, you are then denying yourself of all ungodliness as much as you are able in that situation. Edited February 25, 2020 by Ahab
RichYoungRuler Posted February 25, 2020 Posted February 25, 2020 5 hours ago, pogi said: The atonement of Jesus Christ. But isn't the atonement to which you subscribe conditional, based upon how you kept the commandments? If your level of perfection [during mortality] doesn't meet Heavenly Father's requirement, what are you hoping will bridge that gap?
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