Personal Relationship With Jesus Christ

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

I have told Rain I haven't agreed with her in the past.   I have no problem telling anyone I disagree with them.

Then we seem to be the same in that regard.  Which may be why we don't get along very well sometimes. 

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

If that was the issue, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Uh, how so?  Are you saying that if you had been the one to tell her that you don't agree with what she said then you would not be having this discussion with me?  Because we would have been doing that same thing, so why talk about it?

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don't tell her (or anyone else) what her experience and feelings really mean contrary to what she says they are.

I don't either.  I just tell others what I think their experiences and feelings might mean as I try to figure out what the heck they are talking about when I see that I do not agree with what they have said according to how I have understood their words.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

If someone says something is yellow and someone else looks at it and sees that it looks like green to them, the person who sees it as green is going to point out that, no, that is green, not yellow.

That's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that nothing is how it appears to us but only how are nervous systems interpret the input

Your nervous system may interpret it differently than mine. The differences are simply the way we learned it the word paired to the experience not to the world, because we cannot see the world as it is. If the world is made up of atoms we don't see them. We see reflected light, or so we are told. How we interpret that light is up to our brains and nervous system, and the names we are taught for our internal perceptions.

The little Illusions we see on the internet about the color of a dress, say, illustrate that well.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dress#Real_colours_of_dress_confirmed

I remember actually wondering about this when I was a child learning the names of colors. I found that difficult.

Is what I see as yellow what you see as purple? How could we ever know?

We have been over this before and I think there's not much point in carrying it further. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by mfbukowski

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I really appreciate this. Thank you. 

I doubt it. I just think we each get understanding and knowledge at different times and ways and for different reasons. I love that even though we each only have one little piece we can grow from what others have learned.

I have had distinctive experiences with the Holy Spirit and the Son, but not with the Father. Ultimately, though, it all comes from the Father, IMO. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Ahab]

23 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Is what I see as yellow what you see as purple? How could we ever know?

You could show me something while telling me what color you think it is and then I could tell you what color I think it is.  And then after checking with each other to make sure we were talking about the same thing we could go on our way rejoicing, whether or not we agreed.

[Calm]

57 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I don't either. 

Then you are using a different definition of "dispute" than most, I suspect, when you stated "I dispute that" to her describing her own experience.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Calm

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I have had experiences with the Holy Spirit and the Son that have been distinctive, but not with the Father. IMO, ultimately it all comes from the Father. 

Like how Peter found out who Jesus was by our Father telling him through the Spirit?  Back when he said" Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God"?  Yeah I've had experiences like that, too, with the Spirit being the one who told me what was really going on.

[Ahab]

Just now, Calm said:

Then you are using a different definition of "dispute" than most, I suspect when you stated "I dispute that" to her describing her own experience.

When I said I disputed what she said I meant I did not agree with what she said.  Does dispute mean something other than disagree?  Hmm, well of course it does, since words have multiple definitions.  But disagree is one of the meanings.  I thought that would be understood.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Stop picking on me for a moment and just tell me and the rest of the board if you see things the same way that Rain says she does.  Do you agree with her or not? If you don't agree do you think it's okay for you to say so? 

You don't seem to have a problem saying you don't agree with me but would you also tell her if you did not agree with her?  And how would that be different from me telling her that I don't agree with her?  Is it just more fun for you to tell me you don't agree with me?

As everyone else has already said, this has nothing to do with disagreeing with someone (and it also has nothing to do with picking on you).  But if you are honestly confused by this it's probably good to discuss it so that you won't do the same thing in the future and wonder why people are calling you out on it:

I disagree with people on here all the time.  That is a normal occurrence on a message board.  It's fine to say that you disagree, about things that you've experienced.  When you try to tell someone that you disagree concerning something that they have experienced but you haven't--something that you CAN'T experience because it's happening inside them--you're going to get push back.  

I've disagreed with Rain in the past, but on the topic of Rain's spiritual experiences, I can neither agree nor disagree.  I don't have enough information to do so.  I do believe Rain has experienced what she says she has though because I think she's a trustworthy person with the ability to interpret her own spiritual experiences as accurately as I can interpret mine.  

I would never tell Rain that I disagree that she has had the spiritual experiences that she's had.  That would be like Rain saying "dust gives me a headache" and me responding "I think it's pretty much impossible for dust to give you a headache.  I don't get headaches when I'm around dust."  Such a reply is nonsense.  It literally makes no sense.

Disagree with people's opinions and beliefs all you want, but don't tell them that it was 'pretty much impossible' for them to have the spiritual experience that they've had because you've never had such an experience.   

[Ahab]

31 minutes ago, bluebell said:

As everyone else has already said, this has nothing to do with disagreeing with someone (and it also has nothing to do with picking on you).  But if you are honestly confused by this it's probably good to discuss it so that you won't do the same thing in the future and wonder why people are calling you out on it:

I disagree with people on here all the time.  That is a normal occurrence on a message board.  It's fine to say that you disagree, about things that you've experienced.  When you try to tell someone that you disagree concerning something that they have experienced but you haven't--something that you CAN'T experience because it's happening inside them--you're going to get push back.  

Push back is okay as long as we keep it polite, I think.  Push back is simply disagreement and without disagreement there would be no need for further discussion.  Are we agreed on that point?  If so then we can move on.

My point was that I did not agree that what Rain was talking about could happen.  To her or anyone else, at least not now while we are here as mortals and they (those 3 persons we refer to as God) are not visible to us and we experience them only through the Holy Spirit.  Unless we are talking about seeing them in person, which is not what I understood Rain to be talking about.

If you want to disagree on that point, then we can talk about that some more. And I would be okay with discussing that with you to try to explain to you why I believe that.  I won't ignore you or threaten to not ever talk to you again.

Quote

I've disagreed with Rain in the past, but on the topic of Rain's spiritual experiences, I can neither agree nor disagree.  I don't have enough information to do so.  I do believe Rain has experienced what she says she has though because I think she's a trustworthy person with the ability to interpret her own spiritual experiences as accurately as I can interpret mine.  

I don't work the same way.  If someone tells me God told them something or did something that I don't believe God would say or do, I am going to tell them that I don't agree with them because I don't believe that is something God would say or do.

And then we could talk about they whys and wherefores of that, too, if they wanted to discuss it, while I at least made my point and put it out there for others to consider.  That's what we do here on this board, I think. 

We put our ideas out there and let people think whatever they want. about what we believe, most of the time I would say while being willing to have a discussion about what we believe and why we believe what we  believe.

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I would never tell Rain that I disagree that she has had the spiritual experiences that she's had.  

I would if I didn't think those kinds of experiences were possible, as you just saw that I did.  And now she doesn't want to discuss her beliefs with me, and I think that's a shame because otherwise we could have kept talking about it.

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That would be like Rain saying "dust gives me a headache" and me responding "I think it's pretty much impossible for dust to give you a headache.  I don't get headaches when I'm around dust."  Such a reply is nonsense.  It literally makes no sense.

There is dust everywhere, so it is pretty much impossible for you to never be around any dust.  You could go into a clean room sometimes but you won't have much of a life in there.  Some people get paid to go into those things but I prefer to be in natural settings. Whatever.

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Disagree with people's opinions and beliefs all you want, but don't tell them that it was 'pretty much impossible' for them to have the spiritual experience that they've had because you've never had such an experience.   

What I was saying was that I thought it would be pretty much impossible to tell which God person is communicating with us since each of them are equally as good and therefore pretty much the same type of spirit.  It's wasn't as if we are talking about seeing them in person.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Ahab

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Push back is okay as long as we keep it polite, I think.  Push back is simply disagreement and without disagreement there would be no need for further discussion.  Are we agreed on that point?  If so then we can move on.

My point was that I did not agree that what Rain was talking about could happen.  To her or anyone else, at least not now while we are here as mortals and they (those 3 persons we refer to as God) are not visible to us and we experience them only through the Holy Spirit.  Unless we are talking about seeing them in person, which is not what I understood Rain to be talking about.

If you want to disagree on that point, then we can talk about that some more. And I would be okay with discussing that with you to try to explain to you why I believe that.  I won't ignore you or threaten to not ever talk to you again.

I don't work the same way.  If someone tells me God told them something or did something that I don't believe God would say or do, I am going to tell them that I don't agree with them because I don't believe that is something God would say or do.

And then we could talk about they whys and wherefores of that, too, if they wanted to discuss it, while I at least made my point and put it out there for others to consider.  That's what we do here on this board, I think. 

We put our ideas out there and let people think whatever they want. about what we believe, most of the time I would say while being willing to have a discussion about what we believe and why we believe what we  believe.

I would if I didn't think those kinds of experiences were possible, as you just saw that I did.  And now she doesn't want to discuss her beliefs with me, and I think that's a shame because otherwise we could have kept talking about it.

There is dust everywhere, so it is pretty much impossible for you to never be around any dust.  You could go into a clean room sometimes but you won't have much of a life in there.  Some people get paid to go into those things but I prefer to be in natural settings. Whatever.

What I was saying was that I thought it would be pretty much impossible to tell which God person is communicating with us since each of them are equally as good and therefore pretty much the same type of spirit.  It's wasn't as if we are talking about seeing them in person.

I know what you're point was.  I can see that there is no reason to discuss it further with you.  

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

I know what you're point was.  I can see that there is no reason to discuss it further with you.  

Not if your point is to get me to agree with you.  I see no good reason for me to do that on this point.  I hope we have at least made our points clear.  I will say when I don't agree with something and will discuss my thoughts and feelings with anyone who wants to with me.

[Calm]

56 minutes ago, Ahab said:

When I said I disputed what she said I meant I did not agree with what she said.  Does dispute mean something other than disagree?  Hmm, well of course it does, since words have multiple definitions.  But disagree is one of the meanings.  I thought that would be understood.

Yeah.  I got that.  You were disagreeing that she felt the way she did.

As bluebell says, that is nonsense.

[RichYoungRuler]

15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Interesting, indeed. How is it your business?

No. Enlighten me, please.

Those who think they are keeping the commandments don't need a Savior.

If you want a better relationship with Jesus Christ, first agree with Him that you don't - and you can't - keep all of the commandments.

Which is why you need a Savior, not a facilitator.

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Yeah.  I got that.  You were disagreeing that she felt the way she did.

As bluebell says, that is nonsense.

That is inaccurate reporting.

Here is what she said, again:

I have never addressed Jesus or the Holy Ghost (I always address Father), but I have very clearly felt from each one individually at times . '

And here is what I said, again:

I dispute that.  I think you're mistaken.  But I am curious why you think so, or feel that you do. I also think that if you did, it would be pretty much impossible for you to tell the difference. I can tell the difference between good and evil influences but I can't tell the difference between good influences from God, only that communications from God (those 3 persons) feel as if it is all coming from the same, one, unified source.  So while I don't agree with you I suppose you could say I am still curious to know how you came up with your idea about that.

And here is what I said, again, with some commentary from me to try to better clarify what I meant  when I said what I said:

I dispute that you felt from each one individually at times.  I think you're mistaken in thinking you have felt from each one individually at times.  But I am curious why you think so, or feel that you do or have felt from each one individually at times. I also think that if you did feel from each one individually, it would be pretty much impossible for you to tell the difference between each of them to correctly identify who is who, or which spirit is the spirit of our Father or which spirit is the spirit of Jesus or which spirit is the spirit of the Holy Spirit. I can tell the difference between good and evil influences but I can't tell the difference between good influences from God, only that communications from God (those 3 persons) feel as if it is all coming from the same, one, unified source.  So while I don't agree with you I suppose you could say I am still curious to know how you came up with your idea about that.

Rain saying she didn't want to discuss this anymore with me told me that she didn't care one whit about explaining her beliefs to me or to anyone else on this board.  Looks to me like she just wanted to put it out there without anyone disputing anything she was saying.and with no further discussion to try to share her beliefs and thoughts and feelings regarding God.  I think on a discussion board we should be more willing to discuss our beliefs and thoughts and feelings, especially concerning our religion.  But some people apparently don't feel that way.

Oh well.

[Ahab]

12 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

Those who think they are keeping the commandments don't need a Savior.

If you want a better relationship with Jesus Christ, first agree with Him that you don't - and you can't - keep all of the commandments.

Which is why you need a Savior, not a facilitator.

When Jesus told others what the first and greatest commandment was, followed by what the second greatest commandment was, I think it would have been nice if he had said which one is the 3rd greatest commandment, which I think is to repent from all of our sins.

We do sin on occasions, even if unintentionally, but when we do sin we can repent, and we're supposed to.  It is actually a commandment.  Perhaps you missed the memo.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

You could show me something while telling me what color you think it is and then I could tell you what color I think it is.  And then after checking with each other to make sure we were talking about the same thing we could go on our way rejoicing, whether or not we agreed.

Okay so then that is the way I believe we should talk to each other. We should not tell other people that we are right while they are wrong. That is offensive and does not help the discussion one bit. Because ultimately it is a matter of agreeing or disagreeing.

If we agree to disagree then so be it, and then go on rejoicing as you say.

As you are saying we should always restrict our discussions to what we THINK the answer is, simply out of politeness if nothing else.

Edited February 20, 2020 by mfbukowski

[Ahab]

23 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Okay so then that is the way I believe we should talk to each other. We should not tell other people that we are right while they are wrong. That is offensive and does not help the discussion one bit. Because ultimately it is a matter of agreeing or disagreeing.

Yes, ultimately it is a matter or agreeing or disagreeing with each other, and also about whether or not we agree or disagree with God.  And whether or not we preface each and every one of our statements with "I believe" or "I think" or anything like that, whatever we are saying is from our own perspective even if we are saying God told us so or so, or whatever.  

What seems odd to me is that for some strange reason a lot of people like to point at me or what I am saying as if I am doing something different than everyone else.  We all say whatever we say and we either agree or we don't agree with other people.  It's not like I am the only one on this board who is sharing a personal perspective when I say something.  You do it and bluebell does it and Calm does it and Rain does it and so does everyone else, whether or not anyone else agrees with you people or not.  And yet for some weird reason I seem to have been chosen as the poster child of personal perspectives, as if y'all folks don't do and act the same way.  It is weird.

23 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

If we agree to disagree then so be it, and then go on rejoicing as you say.

Yep, I always do.  I share what I feel like sharing and if y'all don't agree with me it is no skin off of my back.  I think maybe some of y'all just want to agree with me sometimes and when you see that you don't it makes you a little upset, maybe.  I dunno.  Just guessing.  It's weird.

23 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

As you are saying we should always restrict our discussions to what we THINK the answer is, simply out of politeness if nothing else.

You're always doing that whether you intend to or not.  Unless you're trying to share what you think I think, or what God thinks, but it's still just you sharing what you are thinking.  Or you are trying not to share your own thoughts.  

Just know that whatever you say, that is what I take as what you are saying and thinking about.  Unless maybe I think you are just joking.  That's another possibility.  But it's still coming from you so I take it as coming from you. 

And you should of course take whatever I say as coming from me, and whatever anyone else says as coming from them, etc.  Unless it's just going to be some more weirdness.  The world is weird, sometimes.  What else can I say.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said:

Those who think they are keeping the commandments don't need a Savior.

If you want a better relationship with Jesus Christ, first agree with Him that you don't - and you can't - keep all of the commandments.

Which is why you need a Savior, not a facilitator.

Right. You know what I have done. How?

So the promises we make in the sacrament are meaningless and void? 
Thanks for the help. 

I repeat, why is this any of your business? Are you Evangelical? Calvinist?

Edited February 20, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Ahab said:

Like how Peter found out who Jesus was by our Father telling him through the Spirit?  Back when he said" Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God"?  Yeah I've had experiences like that, too, with the Spirit being the one who told me what was really going on.

No, not necessarily like those. Don’t you think such revelations from the Father are through means of the Holy Spirit?

Edited February 20, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I have had distinctive experiences with the Holy Spirit and the Son, but not with the Father. Ultimately, though, it all comes from the Father, IMO. 

I think that that is just as valid a conclusion as anything certainly I have said.

All I have ever heard however is one voice speaking to me as it were.

For me intellectually it just seems more logical to believe that it is coming from Jesus Christ. My theology is based largely on the notion of a human God, and if we are going to reach the rest of humanity with our views, to me the logical Being to relate to would be the savior.

I recall a conversation I had with a Catholic priest about our view of an embodied Father, and he said that any being with a human body could not possibly be God, because that would make him imperfect.

I asked him then if that means that the risen Jesus either no longer has his body or that if he has it, he is therefore imperfect.

He had no answer.

So I think to make our theology more consistently easier to teach to other Christians , the main Being to whom we relate would be the savior.

Many Protestant denominations of course pray directly to Jesus already. I think teaching them to pray to the father in the name of Jesus, because Jesus is our intercessor, just possibly would make more sense to them while they are learning that the father also is embodied.

The notion that the Father has a body of course tends to be a huge stumbling block, and explaining at this way might just make more sense for them.

And of course we know through our doctrine of divine investiture that Jesus is correctly called the "father of our Salvation" anyway.

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Ahab said:

People pretty much do that in everyday relations with other people, though

... causing then, huge errors in logic.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I think that that is just as valid a conclusion as anything certainly I have said.

All I have ever heard however is one voice speaking to me as it were.

For me intellectually it just seems more logical to believe that it is coming from Jesus Christ. My theology is based largely on the notion of a human God, and if we are going to reach the rest of humanity with our views, to me the logical Being to relate to would be the savior.

I recall a conversation I had with a Catholic priest about our view of an embodied Father, and he said that any being with a human body could not possibly be God, because that would make him imperfect.

I asked him then if that means that the risen Jesus either no longer has his body or that if he has it, he is therefore imperfect.

He had no answer.

So I think to make our theology more consistently easier to teach to other Christians , the main Being to whom we relate would be the savior.

Many Protestant denominations of course pray directly to Jesus already. I think teaching them to pray to the father in the name of Jesus, because Jesus is our intercessor, just possibly would make more sense to them while they are learning that the father also is embodied.

The notion that the Father has a body of course tends to be a huge stumbling block, and explaining at this way might just make more sense for them.

And of course we know through our doctrine of divine investiture that Jesus is correctly called the "father of our Salvation" anyway.

”The Father and the Son”....1916 First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Doctrinal Exposition. 

[MiserereNobis]

Classic Ahab on display here.

[RichYoungRuler]

15 hours ago, Ahab said:

When Jesus told others what the first and greatest commandment was, followed by what the second greatest commandment was, I think it would have been nice if he had said which one is the 3rd greatest commandment, which I think is to repent from all of our sins.

We do sin on occasions, even if unintentionally, but when we do sin we can repent, and we're supposed to.  It is actually a commandment.  Perhaps you missed the memo.

All I can tell you, it is impossible for you or anyone to have a relationship with Jesus Christ with this as your requirement.

Please allow me to explain:

If "We do sin on occasions", then you haven't "repented" because (LDS) "repentance" REQUIRES the abandonment of sin.

D&C 58:43 "By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will ^aconfess them and ^bforsake them."

Because you have not forsaken sin, all of your former sins have returned:

D&C 82:7 "And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any ^asin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the ^bformer sins return, saith the Lord your God."

You don't need a "Personal relationship with Jesus Christ".  You need to realize that because you can't keep the commandments, you need a Savior. 

[Rain]

 

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What do you think it means to have a personal relationship with Jesus?

Receiving revelation or answers to prayer from him apart from the Holy Ghost?

Praying to him instead of the Father?

This might seem like it, but I don't pray to the Holy Ghost either so I don't think it is necessary to actually pray or receive answers from Jesus to feel a stronger relationship with him.

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Receiving the Second Comforter?

I think there are few that really comprehend what that means, yet many have a relationship so it isn't dependent on that.

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Understanding more about and feeling the power of the Atonement?

I admittedly tell you I have a very shallow understanding of the atonement. I can tell you all of the church answers and the analogies, but I always felt there were big pieces missing till someone shared their speculations on it in terms of physics and finally I've started to feel like I have the tiniest bit of understanding.

But no, knowing and understanding about this great gift, using the gift, even knowing the love behind it does not make a relationship good in and of itself.

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Feeling gratitude for forgiveness of sins?

While it really cannot be compared, I have seen over and over that gratitude does not show relationship. While sometimes it can come while in a relationship and sometimes a relationship can grow from it, many times all that is there is a very small point of relationship based on that gratitude. 

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Being drawn to him by the Father?

I actually don't know what you are asking here, but no, I don't really see this because while others may help you in a relationship, if the relationship can't stand alone without someone else  it isn't much of one.

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Studying to know more about his life and teachings? 

You can throughly study someone and not build a relationship with them.  I suppose that is why I am doing the walking with Jesus as I study about him.  I do know that the combination of walking and my visit to Israel has given me more understanding in ways I can't really explain.  Israel alone would not have done it.

But no, the understanding is not a relationship. I'm just hoping that somehow the understanding kind of tips me into it.

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Other?

 

What I'm talking about is a personal connection (bad word) of communication, love and other things. I suspect blue dreams could supply a better word. I'm really unsure how to express it.  

For lack of better terms, there needs to be some sort of give and take communication in a relationship. 

Right now I kind of see it as I call Heavenly Father on the phone and tell him things and ask him questions. Heavenly Father writes letters and the Holy Ghost delivers them to me.  Now Jesus may be the creator of the communications system, or he may have fixed broken lines and mail delivery trucks as the mediator, but I don't ever really have contact with him.  

Not really trying to put myself as Christ: when refugees come into Phoenix the organization I am with gets their info and then we gather needed household stuff from the community and put in into their apartment.  I will know their sex, ages, some of their names, where they came come, the country where their camp was, the flight they are on, sometimes their religion and mayybe a little more. 

Through the work I do and sometimes through a prayer I will feel a love for them as I work in and leave the apartment. They will know nothing about me except MAYBE that a charity did this for them and they may not really understand what that means even if they are told.

Despite our love for them and what we have done though, there is not much of any relationship between us.  

Obviously the scale of Christ's intimate knowledge of me and his gift is everything while my knowledge is sparse and my gift tiny, but hopefully it gives understanding of how I feel a lack of relationship at least from my side.

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Rain