pogi Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 34 minutes ago, Ahab said: Actually I do know how God interacts with other people 6 minutes ago, Ahab said: ... I would tell them that I do not believe it works that way. That I didn't believe that, that I disputed that, that I did not agree with what they were saying. I don't have a problem with what I believe or with what I am telling you that I believe, so I'm not sure what you mean by saying it is problematic for me to believe it. Maybe others might have a problem with what I believe, but I have no problem with any of my beliefs. Two very different things.
Ahab Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 5 minutes ago, pogi said: Two very different things. Not really. Just me sharing what I know and believe from 2 different perspectives. Ask me what I know and believe and I will tell you as well as I can.
pogi Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 13 minutes ago, Ahab said: Not really. Just me sharing what I know and believe from 2 different perspectives. ???
Ahab Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 1 minute ago, pogi said: ??? It is all a part of me now. What I know and believe and think are all pretty much mixed together. Ask me what I believe or know or think and I will tell you as well as I can. I see knowledge as the foundation and belief as what helps me to know more. If I don't believe something I will say I don't know it or know if it's true. I don't believe things I don't know, and I don't know anything that I don't believe. And what I think, and my thoughts, are all more about the same things. I'm almost in the mood to write a psalm now. Hmm. Let me just ruminate some more about all of this though before I proceed to write any more.
pogi Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 6 minutes ago, Ahab said: It is all a part of me now. What I know and believe and think are all pretty much mixed together. Ask me what I believe or know or think and I will tell you as well as I can. I see knowledge as the foundation and belief as what helps me to know more. If I don't believe something I will say I don't know it or know if it's true. I don't believe things I don't know, and I don't know anything that I don't believe. And what I think, and my thoughts, are all more about the same things. I'm almost in the mood to write a psalm now. Hmm. Let me just ruminate some more about all of this though before I proceed to write any more. ??? I get that you won't claim to know what you don't believe, but if you only believe something will you claim to know it? It doesn't work both ways.
Ahab Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 2 minutes ago, pogi said: ??? I get that you won't claim to know what you don't believe, but if you only believe something will you claim to know it? Maybe not right away, at first, but eventually I will, the more I believe it. 2 minutes ago, pogi said: It doesn't work both ways. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I see that it does.
pogi Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 13 minutes ago, Ahab said: Maybe not right away, at first, but eventually I will, the more I believe it. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I see that it does. I am confused as to what you actually believe, or should I say “know”? Are you equating belief with knowledge? It doesn’t sound like it in the first paragraph, but it does in the second.
Ahab Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 Just now, pogi said: I am confused as to what you actually believe, or should I say “know”? Are you equating belief with knowledge? It doesn’t sound like it in the first paragraph, but it does in the second. I see belief as I see faith. When we believe or have faith in something we may'not know and I would even say we do not usually know beyond doubt, at first, but as we exercise our faith and belief we come to know it more and more until we no longer have any doubt of that. Some people seem to avoid using the word know or knowledge except for when they have no doubt about something, but I would say that is not a correct understanding of what knowledge really is. Just a basic awareness of something can be considered knowledge, or something you know about, so I believe I can correctly use the word knowledge even if I may have some doubts about whether or not something is true, as long as I believe it or have some faith in it, on some level. Hard to explain with words and you're probably not going to correctly understand me anyway no matter how carefully I try to explain things, since you often seem to not understand me, but that is about as good as I can do to explain what I am thinking and how I see things.
RichYoungRuler Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 21 hours ago, pogi said: Can you please elaborate what you meant by this? Quote Should I continue in sin because of this new freedom and because His grace abounds? God forbid. Sure, a relationship with Jesus Christ yields eternal freedom from the eternal consequences of sin. There absolutely not one ounce of NO FREEDOM in: "We must maintain an unyielding, permanent resolve that we will never repeat the transgression." No margin of error allowed! Does that give those who have this freedom an excuse to go on sinning? God forbid.
RichYoungRuler Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 21 hours ago, pogi said: It is an insistence that we improve - that is what commandments are. Perfection is a process. Does Jesus Christ command that you be perfect or that you become perfect? There's no such thing as being partially born and you don't get extra credit for trying your best. You are either 100% perfect because you have His perfection, or you are 100% imperfect, because you have your own perfection.
RichYoungRuler Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 21 hours ago, pogi said: Not impossible or hopeless. I am a better man for it. I have grown much through the process of utilizing the atonement and have learned things about myself that you unfortunately will never experience without putting forth an effort. I am a kinder husband and father, I am more forgiving, I am more service oriented and less selfish, etc. etc. etc. If I did not try and succeed at overcoming many of my sins I would probably be divorced today. It is a process that works. Perhaps you are misunderstanding in thinking that it all needs to happen at once. Nope. It is a process of improvement. The issue at hand isn't whether quitting bad habits will make you a better husband or father. The question is "Do you forsake sin or not?" The answer is "Yes" or "No". If you want a relationship with Jesus Christ there has to be an agreement about the current and impossible predicament you are in right now.
Ahab Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 10 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: Does Jesus Christ command that you be perfect or that you become perfect? If you can do it right away in an instant, go for it, at which point I would expect you to not have any faults at all, no bad habits or sinful tendencies to overcome, being like our Savior and Father are now. Otherwise you'l just have to work at it until you progress to that level. 10 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: There's no such thing as being partially born and you don't get extra credit for trying your best. Even babies need to grow up. They are not as perfect as they can be as babies. They need to progress to becoming adults who are capable of creating babies, themselves. And we do get credit or more blessings the more we mature. 10 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: You are either 100% perfect because you have His perfection, or you are 100% imperfect, because you have your own perfection. You really think so? So which are you right now? We consider 100% perfection to be 100% like our Savior and our Father in heaven, and since we do not see ourselves at that level right now we generally believe we still have a lot of growing up to do.
pogi Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 37 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: Sure, a relationship with Jesus Christ yields eternal freedom from the eternal consequences of sin. There absolutely not one ounce of NO FREEDOM in: "We must maintain an unyielding, permanent resolve that we will never repeat the transgression." No margin of error allowed! Does that give those who have this freedom an excuse to go on sinning? God forbid. Right, so there is a resolve to not repeat the transgression. There is no margin of error allowed in "God forbid" either! That is what the atonement is for though, to help us through our imperfect resolve. 1
pogi Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 16 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: The issue at hand isn't whether quitting bad habits will make you a better husband or father. The question is "Do you forsake sin or not?" The answer is "Yes" or "No". If you want a relationship with Jesus Christ there has to be an agreement about the current and impossible predicament you are in right now. There is no difference between "quitting bad habits" and "forsaking sin". Not impossible to do either. Again, it is a process. 1
RichYoungRuler Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 21 hours ago, Ahab said: You didn't hear that man I suggested you listen to, did you. Clearly you didn't. And I don't think you heard what I told you in my earlier post, either. Clearly you're not paying any attention to what I am saying or who I am suggesting you listen to. Only your own ideas. Quote The solution is the Savior, not a 7 step repentance program, self-help coach or spiritual "guide", and you're never going to have a Savior if you trying to save yourself. No worries, then. I'm not trying to save myself. I'm just trying to do whatever my Savior tells me to do. He is my Savior and he knows what he is doing. All I need to do is whatever he tells me to do, or at least try to, and He will take care of the rest. Thank you for sharing the video, I have seen it before (and numerous occasions shared it with others). "Do you best and he'll take care of the rest" might work for Keith Green, but it's an impossible gospel. If you're supposed to do whatever He tells you to do, then you should know that you fall short. WAY short because of sin and imperfection and unGodliness and you're never going to find solace in commandment keeping. Moroni 8:25 says that the fulfilling of the commandments brings a remission of sins. "And the first fruits of arepentance is bbaptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth cremission of sins;" if you're not doing your part by fulfilling the commandments how is He going to "take care of the rest"? You haven't repented of your sin because you still sin. You still sin, therefore ALL of your sin has returned to you. If you're sinning, then you're not fulfilling the commandments which means you do not have remission of your sins. Folks, the good news is that Jesus Christ offers you freedom from the law of commandment keeping for perfection. True freedom - not just hope-so or maybe-so.
Ahab Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) 24 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: "Do you best and he'll take care of the rest" might work for Keith Green, but it's an impossible gospel. No, it's really not. It's actually what makes it pretty easy to receive salvation and exaltation. Our part is to do our best to obey our Lord's commandments, which are also our Father's commandments, and as long as we are doing our best to obey, our Lord has paid for the rest. It's a done deal. All we have to do is do whatever we can, however much we can, to obey what they command us to do. Like being baptized, for example. That's an easy one. If we do our part then we're one step closer to receiving salvation and exaltation. Repentance is pretty easy, too, even though we often have to do it over and over and over again, however many times as necessary until we actually stop doing whatever bad thing we were doing, or start doing whatever good thing we were not doing. Unlike baptism which is a one time thing and then once we do it then it is over and done with, repentance is a process that we have to keep repeating as necessary. For someone who never sins after they're baptized I supposed it is over and done with, since they would then have no more sins to repent from, but most of us do not fit into that category because we sin again after we are baptized, and rather than continuing to sin we need to stop committing that sin. There are some other ordinances we need after baptism, too, and we should do those things rather than think we do not need to do those things, so if we haven't done those things yet we need to do those things, too, to get even closer to full salvation and/or exaltation. Quote If you're supposed to do whatever He tells you to do, then you should know that you fall short. WAY short because of sin and imperfection and unGodliness and you're never going to find solace in commandment keeping. Right. Which is why we have the atonement of Jesus Christ to cover all of our sins that we committed in our past and also those sins we commit again in the future, if we do commit any sins after we are baptized and have accepted our Lord's atoning sacrifice. Commandment keeping alone will not save us because we have already disobeyed some commandments and we need something to cover those past mistakes. And we also need something to cover us for any future sins we commit, if we commit any, which most of us do for a while until we totally stop committing any sins. And that thing that we need is our Lord's atoning sacrifice, which he has offered as a free gift of grace. We still need to do our part to stop sinning though otherwise we will keep sinning and still be doing bad things and as disciples of Jesus Christ that should not be considered acceptable behavior. We need to do better than that. Quote Moroni 8:25 says that the fulfilling of the commandments brings a remission of sins. "And the first fruits of arepentance is bbaptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth cremission of sins;" if you're not doing your part by fulfilling the commandments how is He going to "take care of the rest"? He isn't going to be. We have to do something to show that we want to obey our Savior, and he has commanded us to do as much as we can do. The whole point of his sacrifice is to free us from the effects of sin, and if we keep sinning, we're not going to be freed from sin because we'll still be sinning and not stopping and that just isn't good enough to qualify someone for salvation. Quote Folks, the good news is that Jesus Christ offers you freedom from the law of commandment keeping for perfection. True freedom - not just hope-so or maybe-so. Most of us know that already. I think maybe you just didn't realize, and maybe you still don't realize, how much we know about all of this. Edited February 21, 2020 by Ahab
pogi Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, RichYoungRuler said: Moroni 8:25 says that the fulfilling of the commandments brings a remission of sins. "And the first fruits of arepentance is bbaptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth cremission of sins;" if you're not doing your part by fulfilling the commandments how is He going to "take care of the rest"? You haven't repented of your sin because you still sin. You still sin, therefore ALL of your sin has returned to you. If you're sinning, then you're not fulfilling the commandments which means you do not have remission of your sins. Folks, the good news is that Jesus Christ offers you freedom from the law of commandment keeping for perfection. True freedom - not just hope-so or maybe-so. Thanks for interpreting our scripture for us. That always goes over so well! The "commandments" being referenced in this passage are "repentance" and "baptism". It is faith unto repentance and baptism. It is in keeping the commandments of repentance and baptism that one receives a remission of sin. Perfection is not required for remission of sins. If you don't believe me, see here: Quote D&C 76 51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given— 52 That by keeping the commandments [repentance and baptism] they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; It makes absolutely NO SENSE the way you are interpreting it. How could one receive remission of sins only after keeping ALL commandments if keeping all commandments is eternal? There is no end to keeping the commandments, therefore there could never be remission of sins. Also, notice that it says that "keeping the commandments" precedes "receiving the Holy Spirit". That is a clear indicator that this passage is not implying that one needs to never sin again in order to be forgiven. That is a misrepresentation of our doctrine. 1 hour ago, RichYoungRuler said: You haven't repented of your sin because you still sin. You still sin, therefore ALL of your sin has returned to you. If you're sinning, then you're not fulfilling the commandments which means you do not have remission of your sins. Folks, the good news is that Jesus Christ offers you freedom from the law of commandment keeping for perfection. True freedom - not just hope-so or maybe-so. Again, you are not understanding our doctrine. If you want to understand how others believe, it is always more effective to listen and ask question rather than to tell them what they believe. If I steal and repent, I am forgiven. If I steal again, the previous sin of stealing is upon my head (not all previous unrelated sin!). If I repent again, I am forgiven again. If I steal again, the previous sin of coveting is not upon my head, but the sins of stealing will be upon my head again. You repent again, and are forgiven again. Simple. The sins become fewer and farther between until eventually you have kicked the habit and never need to repent for stealing ever again. Edited February 21, 2020 by pogi 3
MiserereNobis Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 It's been awhile since there has been a sustained (multiple posts on the same thread over a few days) attack on Mormonism here. It's kinda refreshing to see you guys defend yourselves from an outsider rather than an insider. For me, the problem with "do your best and God will take care of the rest" is I always feel/know that I can do better in various areas, so I'm never really doing my best. Jokingly, I wonder if my priest tires of hearing the same sorts of things from me. But seriously, every time I leave the confessional I feel a lightness. It may be a paradox that Christ's sacrifice is infinite and yet I still have to do things (like confess, or in LDS terms repent), but God works in paradoxes all the time so I'm ok with it. I know Jesus commanded us to be perfect, but I find it less daunting to focus on the two great commandments, which are love. My end goal isn't perfection, but love. And honestly, I don't think much about perfection. I see RichYoungRuler's basic point that perhaps the commandment to be perfect is just to show us that we can't be perfect. Maybe the quest for perfection is to get us to give up the quest and then sit down and finally see God's love. I don't know, just thinking out loud. In the end, though, it's love, the confessional, and the Blessed Virgin Mary that work the best for me 3
Calm Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said: For me, the problem with "do your best and God will take care of the rest" is I always feel/know that I can do better in various areas, so I'm never really doing my best. That is something many Saints also have problems with...thus we have many books and talks focusing on getting the right focus for repentance. 1
Ahab Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 6 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: It's been awhile since there has been a sustained (multiple posts on the same thread over a few days) attack on Mormonism here. It's kinda refreshing to see you guys defend yourselves from an outsider rather than an insider.[/quote] Yeah it's a nice change of pace for me too. 6 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: For me, the problem with "do your best and God will take care of the rest" is I always feel/know that I can do better in various areas, so I'm never really doing my best. I think that's probably because you have an "ideal" image of yourself in your mind, seeing yourself as how good you think you can become, and then seeing the contrast between your "ideal" image of yourself and the "reality" of how you were when you did a bad thing. Trying to live up to our ideal image is a worthy goal, but that is not usually the reality of what our best is at a given point in time. Over a longer period we can get better, though, and become more like our ideal image of our self, comparing that to how we see our Savior.
Rain Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 16 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: It's been awhile since there has been a sustained (multiple posts on the same thread over a few days) attack on Mormonism here. It's kinda refreshing to see you guys defend yourselves from an outsider rather than an insider. For me, the problem with "do your best and God will take care of the rest" is I always feel/know that I can do better in various areas, so I'm never really doing my best. Jokingly, I wonder if my priest tires of hearing the same sorts of things from me. But seriously, every time I leave the confessional I feel a lightness. It may be a paradox that Christ's sacrifice is infinite and yet I still have to do things (like confess, or in LDS terms repent), but God works in paradoxes all the time so I'm ok with it. I appreciate you bringing this up in this thread! I would have go searching for it, but several conference talks have talked about how it really isn't "do your best, He will take care of the rest." When I first heard it I loved it because it helped me to know I wasn't on my own, but if you go by the definition of the words it doesn't really work and that's what a lot of people have done. The conference talks say it really isn't about Jesus taking care of the rest after all we can do, but only if we do our best in every single thing, but Jesus being beside us the whole way making up for everything we miss. It isn't a line of "yep, I did my best" that time, but more of setting your sail towards God so you can use his wind power to make it. So I thank you here because maybe if I picture Christ alongside me as I work or helping me set the sail that will help me to grow closer to him. 16 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: I know Jesus commanded us to be perfect, but I find it less daunting to focus on the two great commandments, which are love. My end goal isn't perfection, but love. And honestly, I don't think much about perfection. I see RichYoungRuler's basic point that perhaps the commandment to be perfect is just to show us that we can't be perfect. Maybe the quest for perfection is to get us to give up the quest and then sit down and finally see God's love. I don't know, just thinking out loud. In the end, though, it's love, the confessional, and the Blessed Virgin Mary that work the best for me 3
pogi Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) 54 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: It's been awhile since there has been a sustained (multiple posts on the same thread over a few days) attack on Mormonism here. It's kinda refreshing to see you guys defend yourselves from an outsider rather than an insider. For me, the problem with "do your best and God will take care of the rest" is I always feel/know that I can do better in various areas, so I'm never really doing my best. Jokingly, I wonder if my priest tires of hearing the same sorts of things from me. But seriously, every time I leave the confessional I feel a lightness. It may be a paradox that Christ's sacrifice is infinite and yet I still have to do things (like confess, or in LDS terms repent), but God works in paradoxes all the time so I'm ok with it. I know Jesus commanded us to be perfect, but I find it less daunting to focus on the two great commandments, which are love. My end goal isn't perfection, but love. And honestly, I don't think much about perfection. I see RichYoungRuler's basic point that perhaps the commandment to be perfect is just to show us that we can't be perfect. Maybe the quest for perfection is to get us to give up the quest and then sit down and finally see God's love. I don't know, just thinking out loud. In the end, though, it's love, the confessional, and the Blessed Virgin Mary that work the best for me I don't think that we are compassionate or realistic enough with ourselves when assessing what our best is. Sure, there are areas that we can always do better in, but is it sustainable? Is it realistic? Are we fully appreciating and respecting our imperfect and fallible nature and giving that sufficient weight in our assessment? Whenever I get down on myself for not doing my best, I remind myself that this is a marathon and not a 100 yard dash. Maybe doing my best means having compassion for myself when I feel like I could be doing better but fail to. It is important not to confuse the goal of perfection with perfectionism. "As the Greek prefix tele[25] suggests, perfection is to be viewed as a distant objective, to be achieved far into the next life.[26] The Prophet Joseph Smith made the timing of eternal perfection clear when he taught, “It will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned [the principles of exaltation]. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.”[27]" It is important to consider perfection a process. It is line upon line. One step at a time type of progress. Patience in progression is the key which will eventually end in perfection. Gradual progression always leads to and ends in perfection, there is no avoiding it. By the way, I consider "love" to be the definition of perfection. Everything hinges from that. If you are on the quest for love, as I am, then we are on the same path towards perfection. Here is a great article I highly recommend: https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-12-no-3-2011/be-ye-therefore-perfect-beyond-perfectionist-paradigm Edited February 21, 2020 by pogi 3
bluebell Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 17 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: It's been awhile since there has been a sustained (multiple posts on the same thread over a few days) attack on Mormonism here. It's kinda refreshing to see you guys defend yourselves from an outsider rather than an insider. For me, the problem with "do your best and God will take care of the rest" is I always feel/know that I can do better in various areas, so I'm never really doing my best. Jokingly, I wonder if my priest tires of hearing the same sorts of things from me. But seriously, every time I leave the confessional I feel a lightness. It may be a paradox that Christ's sacrifice is infinite and yet I still have to do things (like confess, or in LDS terms repent), but God works in paradoxes all the time so I'm ok with it. I know Jesus commanded us to be perfect, but I find it less daunting to focus on the two great commandments, which are love. My end goal isn't perfection, but love. And honestly, I don't think much about perfection. I see RichYoungRuler's basic point that perhaps the commandment to be perfect is just to show us that we can't be perfect. Maybe the quest for perfection is to get us to give up the quest and then sit down and finally see God's love. I don't know, just thinking out loud. In the end, though, it's love, the confessional, and the Blessed Virgin Mary that work the best for me Me too, which is why I don't agree with that way of looking at it. To me it implies that we have to come to a certain point (whatever our 'best' is) and then, when we get to that point, Christ steps in. I don't believe that's how it works. I don't believe for a second that that's how Christ works with us. 2
bluebell Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 Brad Wilcox's His Grace is Sufficient is one of the best explanations of Salvation, Works, and Grace for an LDS audience that i've ever heard. I highly recommend it. 2
RichYoungRuler Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 3 hours ago, Ahab said: If you can do it right away in an instant, go for it, at which point I would expect you to not have any faults at all, no bad habits or sinful tendencies to overcome, being like our Savior and Father are now. Otherwise you'l just have to work at it until you progress to that level. Legitimate points. What you've been taught completely undermines what it means to have a relationship with Jesus Christ. 3 hours ago, Ahab said: You really think so? So which are you right now? We consider 100% perfection to be 100% like our Savior and our Father in heaven, and since we do not see ourselves at that level right now we generally believe we still have a lot of growing up to do. Depends on perspective. Do you see a banana or a banana peel?
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