RichYoungRuler Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 14 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Fourth repitition: Eons to perfect oneself. That's how you bridge the gap. You don't even listen well enough to know when you've got it totally wrong. Let me ask you a very simple question. I think we both agree that the word "gospel" literally means "good news". Which one sounds more like "good news" to you: "Do all that you can do for the rest of your life by trying to keep an ambiguous list of commandments and potentially spend eons trying to finish perfecting yourself." OR Admit that all of your works are unworthy and trust only upon Jesus Christ and allow Him to give you His perfection. Which one sounds like "good news" to you?
pogi Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said: The point was that the LDS concept of repentance is impossible for anyone to achieve because if you sin ONE TIME, then you're not keeping the commandments which means you haven't repented (D&C 58:43), you do not have remission of sins (Moroni 8:25), you cannot access grace (Moroni 10:32) and you're not enduring to the end (D&C 14:7). You've been tricked into thinking that your works will somehow help you when stand before the judgement seat of Jesus Christ. Ugh, it is so annoying when people try to interpret our scriptures for us and tell us what we believe! It doesn't matter what we say, they will only hear what they want to hear. Repent again. Simple! Quote 29 Therefore I say unto you, Go; and whosoever transgresseth against me, him shall ye judge according to the sins which he has committed; and if he confess his sins before thee and me, and repenteth in the sincerity of his heart, him shall ye forgive, and I will forgive him also. 30 Yea, and as often as my people repent will I forgive them their trespasses against me. (Mosiah 36: 29-30) Or as J. Golden Kimball put it: Quote Cut me off from the Church? They can't do that! I repent too damn fast! Edited February 26, 2020 by pogi 3
mfbukowski Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 22 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: Let me ask you a very simple question. I think we both agree that the word "gospel" literally means "good news". Which one sounds more like "good news" to you: "Do all that you can do for the rest of your life by trying to keep an ambiguous list of commandments and potentially spend eons trying to finish perfecting yourself." OR Admit that all of your works are unworthy and trust only upon Jesus Christ and allow Him to give you His perfection. Which one sounds like "good news" to you? You still don't have it right. Some of us actually want to become the best human beings we can. Just because that's the way that we are. No carrots no sticks. I can't believe that's the way you see the world. Getting the easiest way out. Some of us actually want to keep the Commandments because we love God and want to be like him. We are not looking for the easiest way out. We actually enjoy being the best that we can be. And even after all that Jesus still has to give us his perfection. We are exalted - not saved - after all we can do. Yet again you don't even understand our doctrine, and because of that you have no credibility. 3
pogi Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: You still don't have it right. Some of us actually want to become the best human beings we can. Just because that's the way that we are. No carrots no sticks. I can't believe that's the way you see the world. Getting the easiest way out. Some of us actually want to keep the Commandments because we love God and want to be like him. We are not looking for the easiest way out. We actually enjoy being the best that we can be. And even after all that Jesus still has to give us his perfection. We are exalted - not saved - after all we can do. Yet again you don't even understand our doctrine, and because of that you have no credibility. Two thumbs up! 1
mfbukowski Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 7 minutes ago, pogi said: Ugh, it is so annoying when people try to interpret our scriptures for us and tell us what we believe! It doesn't matter what we say, they will only hear what they want to hear. Repent again. Simple! Or as J. Golden Kimball put it: Yeah, this guy just doesn't get it.
Ahab Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 (edited) 16 hours ago, pogi said: I don’t beat myself up. I have no use for toxic shame. But if I don’t feel remorse and repent for the short-comings and fault that I see in my relationships, then progression is impossible. If you humbly ask the Lord with open ears and heart to show you what needs to be repented of in your life in order for progression to continue unhindered, he will gladly show you. I agree with all of that. I was just trying to show how there is a distinction between sin and not being perfect. To not love someone more than you are able is nothing to repent from because you can only do the best you can do. We repent from sin. If we're not sinning and are simply showing how imperfect we are in some way, we don't "repent" from not being perfect as if we have sinned by not being perfect, we just need to work on becoming better and better. Maybe you use the word repentance differently than I do, using it to mean you need to do better even when no sin is involved. I have a parable for you now. Imagine a path that goes from utter depravity toward having no faults whatsoever, both on opposite ends of that path. Now imagine 2 people walking down that path toward perfection, toward the goal of having no faults whatsoever, and then at some point while walking in that direction one of those persons commits a sin, which would basically show that he had turned around and was going the other direction on that path toward utter depravity. The other person doesn't commit that sin, has already repented from all of the sins he has committed in his past, and is committed to not committing any more sins while he realizes that he isn't perfect yet so he continues to walk down that path so that eventually he will become perfect. Which person would you say needed to repent at that point? And I don't think we're supposed to try to walk faster than we are able to, either. When we see that we are not perfect, and that someone else is doing better at being a better person than we are, such as our Savior who is totally perfect, I don't think we're supposed to fret and worry and try to walk a little faster and faster down that path, and then go into a jog, and then go up to full speed while running to try to be more perfect than we are able to be at that particular point. We may be totally out of shape and to try to get there faster than we are able could possibly cause us to faint and maybe even give us a heart attack when we're still a long way from being totally perfect. All we really need to do is to keep going in the right direction, at a comfortable pace, and if we do that we will eventually get there. Edited February 26, 2020 by Ahab
Ahab Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, MustardSeed said: Yes I sin daily. I do my best but I’m human. And by the way, also a woman. Your directives are entertaining. Oh, okay, sorry, I didn't realize you were a woman. I couldn't tell. And no that doesn't count as a sin on my part. So so far today I have not committed any sins and I didn't yesterday, either. Or for quite a while back into the past, either. But that's enough about my past. Let's just focus on going forward for now. While trying to deny ourselves of all ungodliness. Let's see how long we can do it shall we. No need to report to me, or me to you. Let's just do the best we can do and try to avoid sin as much as we can. Edited February 26, 2020 by Ahab
The Nehor Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 1 hour ago, RichYoungRuler said: Let me ask you a very simple question. I think we both agree that the word "gospel" literally means "good news". Which one sounds more like "good news" to you: "Do all that you can do for the rest of your life by trying to keep an ambiguous list of commandments and potentially spend eons trying to finish perfecting yourself." OR Admit that all of your works are unworthy and trust only upon Jesus Christ and allow Him to give you His perfection. Which one sounds like "good news" to you? The problem with that kind of heaven is the kind of losers they would have to let in would quickly spoil it. Ever spent a lot of time around people who go around lamenting how terrible they are and doing nothing about it? They are amongst the worst kinds of people. Paul taught some Christians who were in love with their own righteousness that they were not going to make it on their own. Some take that teaching in isolation and form their whole faith around it. Interestingly Jesus never taught what you are trying to sell. He did not call back your board name’s namesake and tell him he did not have to sell everything but just needed to confess his sins and accept Jesus. The terrifying parable of the sheep and the goats would have been an ideal time to teach the nature of salvation but Jesus focuses on what people have actually done and not just acknowledging unworthiness. If the Messiah never taught it and Paul only taught it as a corrective to people drunkenly falling off the horse isn’t it possible you are over correcting and falling off the horse the other way. I imagine Paul would have had a similar hyperbolic response to people content that Jesus would save them in their sins instead of from their sins. 1
The Nehor Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 25 minutes ago, Ahab said: I agree with all of that. I was just trying to show how there is a distinction between sin and not being perfect. To not love someone more than you are able is nothing to repent from because you can only do the best you can do. We repent from sin. If we're not sinning and are simply showing how imperfect we are in some way, we don't "repent" from not being perfect as if we have sinned by not being perfect, we just need to work on becoming better and better. Maybe you use the word repentance differently than I do, using it to mean you need to do better even when no sin is involved. I have a parable for you now. Imagine a path that goes from utter depravity toward having no faults whatsoever, both on opposite ends of that path. Now imagine 2 people walking down that path toward perfection, toward the goal of having no faults whatsoever, and then at some point while walking in that direction one of those persons commits a sin, which would basically show that he had turned around and was going the other direction on that path toward utter depravity. The other person doesn't commit that sin, has already repented from all of the sins he has committed in his past, and is committed to not committing any more sins while he realizes that he isn't perfect yet so he continues to walk down that path so that eventually he will become perfect. Which person would you say needed to repent at that point? And I don't think we're supposed to try to walk faster than we are able to, either. When we see that we are not perfect, and that someone else is doing better at being a better person than we are, such as our Savior who is totally perfect, I don't think we're supposed to fret and worry and try to walk a little faster and faster down that path, and then go into a jog, and then go up to full speed while running to try to be more perfect than we are able to be at that particular point. We may be totally out of shape and to try to get there faster than we are able could possibly cause us to faint and maybe even give us a heart attack. All we really need to do is to keep going in the right direction, at a comfortable pace, and if we do that we will eventually get there. Sins of omission are still sins. I think you are restricting the definition of sin. If all you are saying if you have not lied or committed adultery lately then I find your definition of sin incomplete and if you feel you only need repentance for those kinds of sins you do not understand what repentance is. 2
Ahab Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Sins of omission are still sins. Like what, for example? There is only so much time in our day so even if we wanted to do every good thing, after making a list without considering our time constraints, there is no way we could possibly do every good thing because we do not have enough time. or money, or whatever other resources are needed to be able to do something. We can only do what we can do and that involves making choices about what we will do. Doing this but not doing that. And I think that is okay as long as we are not actually doing anything bad. 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I think you are restricting the definition of sin. If all you are saying if you have not lied or committed adultery lately then I find your definition of sin incomplete and if you feel you only need repentance for those kinds of sins you do not understand what repentance is. I've already defined what I understand sin and repentance to be and if you don't agree I will not be offended.
pogi Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 36 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said: Let me ask you a very simple question. I think we both agree that the word "gospel" literally means "good news". Which one sounds more like "good news" to you: "Do all that you can do for the rest of your life by trying to keep an ambiguous list of commandments and potentially spend eons trying to finish perfecting yourself." OR Admit that all of your works are unworthy and trust only upon Jesus Christ and allow Him to give you His perfection. Which one sounds like "good news" to you? You know what sounds like good news to me, if I could eat chocolate cake, ice cream, and nachos everyday, never work-out and end up with a perfect and healthy body! You can't deny that would be "good news"! That must be the gospel then, right? Why do you diminish and speak poorly of God's works and commands? 1
Ahab Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 1 hour ago, RichYoungRuler said: Let me ask you a very simple question. I think we both agree that the word "gospel" literally means "good news". Which one sounds more like "good news" to you: "Do all that you can do for the rest of your life by trying to keep an ambiguous list of commandments and potentially spend eons trying to finish perfecting yourself." OR Admit that all of your works are unworthy and trust only upon Jesus Christ and allow Him to give you His perfection. Which one sounds like "good news" to you? Have you seen this yet? : And hereby we do know that we know him, if we akeep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his acommandments, is a bliar, and the truth is not in him. I'm not the first person to say that. The apostle John said it, 1 John chapter 2
The Nehor Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 36 minutes ago, Ahab said: Like what, for example? There is only so much time in our day so even if we wanted to do every good thing, after making a list without considering our time constraints, there is no way we could possibly do every good thing because we do not have enough time. or money, or whatever other resources are needed to be able to do something. We can only do what we can do and that involves making choices about what we will do. Doing this but not doing that. And I think that is okay as long as we are not actually doing anything bad. I've already defined what I understand sin and repentance to be and if you don't agree I will not be offended. Did you miss the “Good, Better, Best” talk? The purpose of the gospel is to align our will with the will of God, not to just make it through life abstaining from a list of “don’t” commandments. We cannot do everything but saying that everything is okay as long as what we are doing is not bad is spiritual laziness. It is Terrestrial at best. We are supposed to seek the best and to seek the will of the Father as He knows how limited our resources (time, personal skills and talents, our emotional strength) are and how best to utilize them. 2
pogi Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 51 minutes ago, Ahab said: I agree with all of that. I was just trying to show how there is a distinction between sin and not being perfect. To not love someone more than you are able is nothing to repent from because you can only do the best you can do. The commandment is perfect love. There is no exception. If we are not loving perfectly then it is because of the natural man - selfishness/pride a.k.a sin. We should not dismiss our selfishness/pride as something that doesn't need to be repented of. Of course, we need to be patient and compassionate with ourselves and not expect perfection in mortality, but if we are not acknowledging our fault with a repentant heart, then we are not doing it right. 1
Ahab Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 30 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Did you miss the “Good, Better, Best” talk? The purpose of the gospel is to align our will with the will of God, not to just make it through life abstaining from a list of “don’t” commandments. We cannot do everything but saying that everything is okay as long as what we are doing is not bad is spiritual laziness. It is Terrestrial at best. We are supposed to seek the best and to seek the will of the Father as He knows how limited our resources (time, personal skills and talents, our emotional strength) are and how best to utilize them. You're the one who brought up the idea of sin by omission. I asked you for some example of what you meant by that. I said we can't do everything so that means we must make choices about what to do and what not to do. Not dong something good is not a sin, because there is no way we can do every good thing at the same time given our time constraints. Which means there will always be times when we are not doing something good. And I said that was okay as long as we are not doing anything bad. But yes when we do something good we should do the best thing we can think of to do at a particular time, even if that means we will not be doing something else that is good that we could have been doing. Do you think we agree or disagree here? I can't tell but I don't see a good reason for you to say someone is spiritually lazy just because they are not doing something good. Even when we're doing our best we're still not doing something that would be good to do.
Ahab Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 30 minutes ago, pogi said: The commandment is perfect love. There is no exception. If we are not loving perfectly then it is because of the natural man - selfishness/pride a.k.a sin. We should not dismiss our selfishness/pride as something that doesn't need to be repented of. Of course, we need to be patient and compassionate with ourselves and not expect perfection in mortality, but if we are not acknowledging our fault with a repentant heart, then we are not doing it right. When we are doing as well as we can, trying our best to do what is right, then we do not need to repent. Repentance is all about turning away from sin, no longer engaging in sin, turning around and going in the right direction when we are not going the right way. You sound to me like you beat yourself up and feel bad just because you are not perfect, and I have tried to tell you that you should not feel bad for realizing that you are not perfect. But if you want to feel bad, go right ahead. I can't do anything to stop you.
pogi Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Ahab said: When we are doing as well as we can, trying our best to do what is right, then we do not need to repent. If you are not succeeding at living a commandment, then you are not doing your best (see scriptures below). Repentance helps us to reach our best. If you pretend like you are maximizing your potential all the time, and don't repent, then you won't reach your honest best. The thing is, you very well may be living your best independent of God's help. But that is not how we are supposed to live. Without the help of God it is impossible. When you start acknowledging short comings and your inability to accomplish his commands on your own without his help, and repent, then progression will be unhindered. 1 Nephi 3:7 Philippians 4:13 1 Nephi 17:3;50 D&C 5:34 Edited February 26, 2020 by pogi 1
Ahab Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 7 minutes ago, pogi said: If you are not succeeding at living a commandment, then you are not doing your best (see scriptures below). Repentance helps us to reach our best. If you pretend like you are maximizing your potential all the time, and don't repent, then you won't reach your honest best. The thing is, you very well may be living your best independent of God's help. But that is not how we are supposed to live. Without the help of God it is impossible. When you start acknowledging short comings and your inability to accomplish his commands on your own without his help, and repent, then progression will be unhindered. 1 Nephi 3:7 Philippians 4:13 1 Nephi 17:3;50 D&C 5:34 Maybe we're just looking at this from 2 different perspectives, and from a different understanding of words while still being in agreement. I don't think so, though. I use the word repentance only to refer to changing direction, as in changing from committing a sin to no longer sinning. You seem to use it to refer to intensity, as well, as in going from good to better or best, which to my mind isn't about repentance but about becoming more perfect. Not having sin isn't the same thing as being perfect, and I realize that. But not committing any more sins should be our main priority, I think, and then we can go from good to better and best or just jump straight to the best and not worry so much about things that are good or better but still not as good as the best thing we could possibly do. I definitely do not believe I am at my maximum potential right now. But I am pretty good about not sinning anymore and I try to keep busy doing something that is at least good if not better or best. And I try to do my best at whatever I am doing.
pogi Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 32 minutes ago, Ahab said: Maybe we're just looking at this from 2 different perspectives, and from a different understanding of words while still being in agreement. I don't think so, though. I use the word repentance only to refer to changing direction, as in changing from committing a sin to no longer sinning. You seem to use it to refer to intensity, as well, as in going from good to better or best, which to my mind isn't about repentance but about becoming more perfect. Not having sin isn't the same thing as being perfect, and I realize that. But not committing any more sins should be our main priority, I think, and then we can go from good to better and best or just jump straight to the best and not worry so much about things that are good or better but still not as good as the best thing we could possibly do. I definitely do not believe I am at my maximum potential right now. But I am pretty good about not sinning anymore and I try to keep busy doing something that is at least good if not better or best. And I try to do my best at whatever I am doing. Do you consider being selfish sinful?
Ahab Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 Just now, pogi said: Do you consider being selfish sinful? Depends on how we are defining what selfish means today. We all have our own needs that we need to take care of and I don't believe it is sinful to take care of our own needs as long as we are not doing that exclusively, or with no regard at all for others. The 2nd greatest commandment is that we love others as we love ourselves, so however much or however well we love others, if we do, is a reflection of how much we love our own self. I try to keep that in mind when I see how much others seem to love me by their actions.
pogi Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Ahab said: Depends on how we are defining what selfish means today. . Placing your own needs or wants above your spouse or other relationships. Edited February 26, 2020 by pogi
Ahab Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 1 minute ago, pogi said: Placing your needs or wants above another's. Is that a sin? Suppose you are given a dozen cookies, your favorite kind, which you could easily eat all by yourself. Now suppose there are others around you who look like they would like one. Do you give them all away, or all but 1 away, or do you keep 2 and give away the others? Oh wait, what am I talking about. You could sell those suckers for at least $5 each! Why give any away at all? I would share, though, giving away all but the one or ones I wanted to eat, myself. Would it be a sin for me to eat that many? How many cookies would I righteously be allowed to eat, do you think? Should I totally forget about what I want and think only of others? I like the idea of keeping things balanced, as much as possible.
pogi Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 20 minutes ago, Ahab said: I would share, though, giving away all but the one or ones I wanted to eat, myself. You have never kept every cookie, so to speak, for yourself in the past 5 years?
RichYoungRuler Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 4 hours ago, mfbukowski said: You still don't have it right. Some of us actually want to become the best human beings we can. Just because that's the way that we are. No carrots no sticks. I can't believe that's the way you see the world. Getting the easiest way out. And, no surprise, you didn't answer the question. You brought the carrot stick analogy up, but it fits perfectly. You'll do anything to try to save yourself and chase after salvation 4 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Some of us actually want to keep the Commandments because we love God and want to be like him. We are not looking for the easiest way out. We actually enjoy being the best that we can be. And even after all that Jesus still has to give us his perfection. We are exalted - not saved - after all we can do. Yet again you don't even understand our doctrine, and because of that you have no credibility. Anyone who has chosen to believe that salvation depends upon obedience to the laws and ordinances, can't claim they do anything out of a love for Heavenly Father or the Savior. The real reason commandment keepers try in vain to keep the commandments is they selfishly want to save your own skin.
Ahab Posted February 26, 2020 Posted February 26, 2020 12 minutes ago, pogi said: You have never kept every cookie, so to speak, for yourself in the past 5 years? No, not that I can recall and it doesn't sound like how I typically operate. Especially not when I am given a gift and the giver of the gift is typically right there with me along with other people who are around to help me celebrate getting a good thing.
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