Women's Dress and Men's Thoughts

[ttribe]

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

No, that’s what you said.

I said, not all women feel the way you do, and in all of my years in the church, I have never heard such nonsense taught, is it possible you are interpreting their message wrong? Please provide me with a source so I can see for myself.

Interesting to see so much defense for these interpretations and so much resistance to simply posting a source to clear things up.

Edit: I just noticed Calm posted some references.  Thanks, I’ll take a look.

Good grief.  The quote from Elder Oaks has been posted multiple times.  

This one took less than a minute to find (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2014/03/the-lords-standard-of-morality?lang=eng)  (ETA: The part that says "I'm assuming you can use Google..." are my words. Note sure how they ended up as part of the quote)

Quote

Our dress affects not only our thoughts and actions but also the thoughts and actions of others. Accordingly, Paul the Apostle counseled “women [to] adorn themselves in modest apparel” (1 Timothy 2:9).

The dress of a woman has a powerful impact upon the minds and passions of men. If it is too low or too high or too tight, it may prompt improper thoughts, even in the mind of a young man who is striving to be pure.⁴

Men and women can look sharp and be fashionable, yet they can also be modest. Women particularly can dress modestly and in the process contribute to their own self-respect and to the moral purity of men. In the end, most women get the type of man they dress for.

I'm assuming you can use Google; it's really not that difficult.

Edited October 25, 2019 by ttribe

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Pogi, for teachings that women are in part accountable for men's thoughts, do you want recent ones (if so, please give a cutoff year) or just want to see how things have been taught that created and maintain the culture.

Here is an oldie but goodie:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1977/10/young-women-real-guardians?lang=eng

"Control" is bolded as it makes clear the entire point of the talk, imo.  Young women can control men...and if you are controlling something, you are accountable for it.

He is clear it is only in part, but that does not negate the idea of control.

Wow.  That was kind of shocking.  Women as the guardians of men's ability to go on a mission?  Women have control over men and men just do whatever it is that women like?  I've been married to a man for over 19 years, who adores me, and I have never been able to control how fast he drives his car.  

[Maidservant]

8 hours ago, CA Steve said:

If a woman bares her shoulder in the forest, and no man is there to see it, is she still doing something wrong?

This.

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Prophets in our day have emphasized female beauty as a valuable asset of which righteous males should strive to be worthy. 

I assume you mean here external beauty, appearance and something beyond being healthy, clean, and neat.

Could you specify the time period you are talking about....say have you heard/seen this being taught in the last 25 years?  50?  And if so, a specific comment if possible so I better understand what you see as beauty being a reward for male righteousness in more recent years.

I think that attitude (value of women is tied in part to appearance even in church settings, righteous men get high value women) has changed since my youth, but I may not be paying attention.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Calm

[provoman]

Some people dress to attract another...that cannot be denied.

Some people dress to feel good about themselves. 

Some people just don't care about clothing.

The clothing or lack of clothing of one person does not justify the conduct of another person. 

[Calm]

37 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Wow.  That was kind of shocking.  Women as the guardians of men's ability to go on a mission?  Women have control over men and men just do whatever it is that women like?  I've been married to a man for over 19 years, who adores me, and I have never been able to control how fast he drives his car.  

Same here with speed and other aspects...and I am still complaining about it and we are almost to 40 years of marriage.

He is at times better about not tailgating  and after years of high angst in all his family including a son who won't be his passenger, he has mostly stopped swearing at and rushing cars he gets angry at, but he still honks and flicks his lights too often imo. (I think this contributes to potential accidents when overdone)  He is extremely easygoing in almost all other things, so it is very disconcerting to us when he hulks out in this way.

It does say "in part" in terms of influences, but the use of "control" and some other comments like "shield" ramps the "in part" way, way up, imo.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

I assume you mean here external beauty, appearance and something beyond being healthy, clean, and neat.

Could you specify the time period you are talking about....say have you heard/seen this being taught in the last 25 years?  50?  And if so, a specific comment if possible so I better understand what you see as beauty being a reward for male righteousness in more recent years.

I think that attitude (value of women is tied in part to appearance even in church settings, righteous men get high value women) has changed since my youth, but I may not be paying attention.

Not GA level, but our sons’ deacons quorum advisor frequently taught them, that their righteousness would earn them a prettier wife. 

[ttribe]

1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Not GA level, but our sons’ deacons quorum advisor frequently taught them, that their righteousness would earn them a prettier wife. 

Purely anecdotal, but I heard it said many times amongst missionaries in my mission (Elders, not Sisters) that "The harder you work, the hotter your wife will be."

[Calm]

41 minutes ago, ttribe said:

most women get the type of man they dress for.

That's the one I was thinking of.  Thanks.

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Not GA level, but our sons’ deacons quorum advisor frequently taught them, that their righteousness would earn them a prettier wife. 

Ach....

Quote

Purely anecdotal, but I heard it said many times amongst missionaries in my mission (Elders, not Sisters) that "The harder you work, the hotter your wife will be."

Eewwww....

Edited October 26, 2019 by Calm

[Peacefully]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

You're a wonderful mom for not relaying the conversation or request from your bishop to your daughter, Peacefully!

Thanks:) I didn’t get everything right but I’m proud of the two good people I raised and sent out into the world. 

[pogi]

There is a lot to respond to and I have a busy weekend so don’t expect much if any response till next week.  Thanks for the quotes. I hope to address them later.

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I’ve been reading this thread with much interest. A bishop called me into his office once and said my daughter needed to wear shirts that weren’t so tight to church because it made his son uncomfortable. I told him that my daughter was just more well endowed than other girls but still wanted to wear cute, trendy clothes. I don’t think we ever agreed on the best course action and I don’t remember talking to my daughter about it. It didn’t sit well with me at that time but I wasn’t one to make waves. It would be a different conversation now that I’m older and more sure of myself. I would let the Bishop know that my daughter is not responsible for his son’s thoughts.

On another note, I’ve found out that at least one object lesson that was used in YW caused my daughter to equate someone being raped with being a chewed up piece of gum. She has only recently told me how that message messed her up for a long time. Please make sure you know what is being taught to your YW and YM. 

It is unfortunate someone has resurrected that false analogy. It was fairly common years ago. IIRC, it was denounced in an official publication or talk, but I would have to spend some time looking that up. 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

...An interesting statement that invites inquiry 

Even though he knows it upsets me that he can't watch a movie, PG13 even, that shows something as I've mentioned, he cannot just keep quiet. He's not a mister goody two shoes but for my sake, he won't refrain from saying something each and every time. But I know I do things too that are immature. But he's not shown that it hurts him, like I've shown him how it hurts me.

To be fully transparent from my first post on this, I think he doesn't like to think of me having had any boyfriends before him and lets his imagination run wild. He's so wrong on that side. So that's probably why I get so upset, because I'm thinking he thinks I may have been like the women in the movies or shows. And I've never given him any reason to doubt my faithfulness. If I were ever to be single, I'd probably never remarry, it's just too hard on my emotions.

Sorry so long winded, what it might be is that he is insecure and worries that I think he isn't enough how he is, which is so wrong minded. I've mentioned therapy, but he's never on board with that, we both need it. 

The reason I might be on "limited", is sometimes I get too personal. Sorry moderators!

Edited October 26, 2019 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, ttribe said:

Purely anecdotal, but I heard it said many times amongst missionaries in my mission (Elders, not Sisters) that "The harder you work, the hotter your wife will be."

This was common among the sisters in my mission. We would often joke about how tracking the rain guaranteed a good looking husband. 

No one actually believed it though. It was just for fun. Kind of how the YW in my ward joke that the more prayers you say in class the hotter their husbands will be. 

With this particular superstition, I think gurls and guys are fairly even. 😊

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Even though he knows it upsets me that he can't watch a movie, PG13 even, that shows something as I've mentioned, he cannot just keep quiet. He's not a mister goody two shoes but for my sake, he won't refrain from saying something each and every time. But I know I do things too that are immature. But he's not shown that it hurts him, like I've shown him how it hurts me.

To be fully transparent from my first post on this, I think he doesn't like to think of me having had any boyfriends before him and lets his imagination run wild. He's so wrong on that side. So that's probably why I get so upset, because I'm thinking he thinks I may have been like the women in the movies or shows. And I've never given him any reason to doubt my faithfulness. If I were ever to be single, I'd probably never remarry, it's just too hard on my emotions.

Sorry so long winded, what it might be is that he is insecure and worries that I think he isn't enough how he is, which is so wrong minded. I've mentioned therapy, but he's never on board with that, we both need it. 

The reason I might be on "limited", is sometimes I get too personal. Sorry moderators!

This makes sense to me. Usually an over reaction has a reasonable explanation. 

❤️

[Peacefully]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

It is unfortunate someone has resurrected that false analogy. It was fairly common years ago. IIRC, it was denounced in an official publication or talk, but I would have to spend some time looking that up. 

This was probably 15+ years ago. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

It is unfortunate someone has resurrected that false analogy. It was fairly common years ago. IIRC, it was denounced in an official publication or talk, but I would have to spend some time looking that up. 

Pres. Holland, iirc, denounced the nail in the board analogy as false doctrine.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1977/03/alma-son-of-alma?lang=eng

Quote

We learn that when repentance is complete we are born again and leave behind forever the self we once were. To me, none of the many approaches to teaching repentance falls more short than the well-intentioned suggestion that “although a nail may be removed from a wooden post, there will forever be a hole in that post.”

We know that repentance (the removal of that nail, if you will) can be a very long and painful and difficult task. Unfortunately, some will never have the incentive to undertake it. We even know that there are a very few sins for which no repentance is possible.

But where repentance is possible and its requirements are faithfully pursued and completed, there is no “hole left in the post” for the bold reason that it is no longer the same post. It is a new post. We can start again, utterly clean, with a new will and a new way of life.

 

Edited October 26, 2019 by Calm

[juliann]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

There is a lot to respond to and I have a busy weekend so don’t expect much if any response till next week.  Thanks for the quotes. I hope to address them later.

What a coincidence that you leave when the documentation you were demanding for pages shows up. I think we are being trolled.

[BlueDreams]

9 hours ago, pogi said:

I have acknowledged that culture plays a huge role in all of this, which is why I think we should avoid specific dress codes and instead teach principles to live by.  Most of the time, if you dress according to culturally acceptable standards, you are not going to a problem for most men within that culture. I think dressing that way works most of the time and that is fine.  However, there are women (and men) who intentionally dress with the intent to sexually arouse the opposite sex and draw attention to themselves.  They basically wear sex.  I am sure you have seen it.  That is very different from how you dress, I am sure.  So, I don't have a problem with how you dress.  I am not talking about you or probably most women in the church, I am talking about those who wear sex for attention.  Do you feel like these women (and men) have any accountability at all for their potential influence on others for good or evil?

 

I’m not sure how you mean by this or how i would tell the difference. Nor how this would apply to the vast majority of women in the church. I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone remotely fit that description in wards. Flirty, flattering, attention oriented possibly. “Wearing s*x,” definitely not. So it seems a little besides the point to me since it makes a very small percentage of the population as a whole. 
 

I’m not sure about the question either. I kept picturing jospeh and potiphar’s wife. If there was an active effort to seduce, then that action whether successful or not would be tied to it. 
 

The problem is figuring out inherent motive. That and whether clothes represents actual influence. For me and my spouse someone’s outfit is someone’s outfit. My husband is far more likely to be seduced by a fancy car than a woman dressed provocatively. Same with me. Clothes are clothes. Which is part of my difficulty conceptualizing your point/question. 

My gut says we’re responsible for our actions and intent. Many of them will be visible. Several more won’t. Assuming it through clothes or external cues may be more of a concern for the person making the judgment than the person wearing the outfit. 
 

 

with luv,

BD

[Tacenda]

48 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

This makes sense to me. Usually an over reaction has a reasonable explanation. 

❤️

 

Thanks for this! Never told anyone about this, just my go-to-discussion-board!  ❤️

[cherryTreez]

4 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Not GA level, but our sons’ deacons quorum advisor frequently taught them, that their righteousness would earn them a prettier wife. 

My husband was told on his mission that the harder they worked, the hotter the wife.   I don't remember if it was his mission president or a temple president.  It was one of them.

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, cherryTreez said:

My husband was told on his mission that the harder they worked, the hotter the wife.   I don't remember if it was his mission president or a temple president.  It was one of them.

Did he think they were serious or making a joke?

[InCognitus]

16 minutes ago, cherryTreez said:

My husband was told on his mission that the harder they worked, the hotter the wife.   I don't remember if it was his mission president or a temple president.  It was one of them.

So, did your husband work hard on his mission, or not?  

If he worked hard, maybe he was just making a compliment to you.  

[CA Steve]

8 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

So, did your husband work hard on his mission, or not?  

If he worked hard, maybe he was just making a compliment to you.  

I don't know about other men but I think viewing one's spouse as a "reward" is very demeaning.