Women's Dress and Men's Thoughts

[Bernard Gui]

58 minutes ago, rchorse said:

The real issue in church culture (I've found no actual doctrine to support it), in my opinion, is that women are portrayed as spiritual and men as carnal. I can't count how many times I've heard in priesthood and other meeetings that women are just plain superior to men when it comes to spiritual things.

The main problem that I see with this is that it just ends up excusing bad behavior by men. Organizations, especially religious ones, typically get out of people what they expect from them. In American church culture, at least, women are expected to be perfect and righteous, while the expectation of men is that they are lazy and can't get anything right. In my last ward, we assigned the Elders Quorum to handle the ward Christmas party, and everyone in the ward was convinced it would be a disaster because you just can't rely on the men for things like that. In reality, it turned out just as well as any other Christmas party.

I think the whole modesty discussion is a symptom of the larger problem mentioned above. Those loser men just can't handle their thoughts, so it's up to the women to fix it again. Men need to take responsibility for their own thoughts and requiring extreme levels of modesty from women just handicaps them, as has been said.

We need to start expecting more of men in the church and in society and not just offload responsibility to the women.

Does the Savior look on them as “loser men”?

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

We did this like 3 years ago...I know, you think women should compete in burkas. Because, really,  there are no historical differences in women’s sporting attire and the sexes should dress exactly the same.

But, this thinking is where the ‘free the nipple’ campaign came from so I guess, you would sign on? 🤔

Oh, come on. This topic comes up regularly. The same questions and beefs are always brought up. Nothing new has been said. Most of the participants here have also been there for the earlier ones.

Why do your comments  have be so insulting?

No, you don’t know what I think. Why would you associate me with oppressive Muslim fanatics? I have said nothing about burkas or making them dress the same. 

What type of “thinking” are you referring to? 

Why do you make up something that you think I would sign on to? Why do you think I would sign it?

It is an honest question about an obvious double standard for dress in athletics that results in women dressing less modestly than men. Why is that? They are competing in similar sports and venues. It has nothing to do with comfort. The history could be or could not be part of the answer, but how?. 

Why not engage in a conversation instead of just casting opprobrium?

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[rchorse]

43 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Does the Savior look on them as “loser men”?

Of course not. That was a caricature of how too many in the church view men, not how I see men.

I am a man, and I view men and women as of equal worth. What I am criticizing is the all-too-common sentiment expressed in the church that men cannot be as spiritual as women due to being men (which I have only heard from men, by the way). This is just an attempt by men to avoid responsibility.

Edited October 25, 2019 by rchorse
formatted for clarity

[bsjkki]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Oh, come on. This topic comes up regularly. The same questions and beefs are always brought up. Nothing new has been said. Most of the participants here have also been there for the earlier ones.

Why do your comments  have be so insulting?

No, you don’t know what I think. Why would you associate me with oppressive Muslim fanatics? I have said nothing about burkas or making them dress the same. 

What type of “thinking” are you referring to? 

Why do you make up something that you think I would sign on to? Why do you think I would sign it?

It is an honest question about an obvious double standard for dress in athletics that results in women dressing less modestly than men. Why is that? They are competing in similar sports and venues. It has nothing to do with comfort. The history could be or could not be part of the answer, but how?. 

Why not engage in a conversation instead of just casting opprobrium?

 

I just skipped to the end. 

[gopher]

It's funny how some issues are so difficult to discuss without straying off topic.

Which reminds me, have you seen this article about another evil of the patriarchy?  It's about premarital exams which apparently are common in Utah.  Warning - it's about heterosexuality so it may not be of much interest to most here.

Edited October 25, 2019 by gopher

[bsjkki]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Why do you make up something that you think I would sign on to? Why do you think I would sign it?

Not made up. https://www.aol.com/amp/2019/09/20/free-the-nipple-movement-women-legally-topless-fort-collins-colorado-oklahoma-utah/.  Real movement with court cases and everything. And they win their court cases.

I think you would sign on because you advocate for equality of sporting attire. So,  swimming comes to mind. A lot of people agree with you.

Edited October 25, 2019 by bsjkki

[bluebell]

12 hours ago, rpn said:

I'd say that there are very few times when anyone should say anything to someone at church who is dressed in a way that makes them uncomfortable.   Parents have an obligation to teach (which includes helping them understand that what they choose to wear others read things into.  Having done that, under inspired instruction, parents should probably then limit their objections to refusing to buy objectionable clothes (or as I did for several years until one of my teens realized they'd make money doing it, buy back the objectionable items so it was no longer in their wardrobe),  and/or refusing to allow them to keep inappropriate items in our home and/or transport them to buy such items.    

Leaders and members at church have an obligation to love and overlook everything they don't like.  Yes they can teach the FTSOY standards.   But they shouldn't be interpreting them for individuals.   There is NO doctrine of exactly what is acceptable to God when.  In any group of leaders/members there are big differences in what clothing they deem acceptable or not.   And it is the individual's job to learn figure out their own discipleship. 

Yes, if I were a leader, I might stash somewhere a real classy bolero or shawl in case anyone wanted to borrow it.  But I'd only ask if someone looked like they were cold (or if the Holy Ghost specifically told me to do so and I confirmed that it was He and not my own feelings.

I agree with this.  Unless someone shows up with actual body parts showing that shouldn't be, I don't think anyone at church should ever say anything to an individual youth about how they are dressed.  Most kids eventually self correct with the help of their parents, the things they learn at church, and the spirit.  In the meantime, they should continue to feel loved and accepted at church and never singled out for clothing choices.   

[juliann]

And here come the inevitable man tears as women reject the mansplaining.....

[juliann]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Oh, come on. This topic comes up regularly. The same questions and beefs are always brought up. Nothing new has been said. Most of the participants here have also been there for the earlier ones.

Why do your comments  have be so insulting?

No, you don’t know what I think. Why would you associate me with oppressive Muslim fanatics? I have said nothing about burkas or making them dress the same. 

What type of “thinking” are you referring to? 

Why do you make up something that you think I would sign on to? Why do you think I would sign it?

It is an honest question about an obvious double standard for dress in athletics that results in women dressing less modestly than men. Why is that? They are competing in similar sports and venues. It has nothing to do with comfort. The history could be or could not be part of the answer, but how?. 

Why not engage in a conversation instead of just casting opprobrium?

 

It continues to amaze me how you can be so out of touch on women's issues when you are so capable on so many other things. My only response to this is, are you kidding me? When does it sink in that your comments are insulting? And demeaning. And out of place. Men have so much trouble accepting that they are no longer the final word on matters that affect women. That means they are going to have to, gasp, listen to women! And accept what they say about what they experience and men don't. I think that is considered to be Christlike, actually, isn't that what Christ did? 

[juliann]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

No, you don’t know what I think.  

 

 

Actually, we do. It is what we have heard all our lives. We have decades of experience in knowing. You don't. 

[bluebell]

15 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

That patriarchy tripe is rolled out with consistency on this site by specific individuals. It is a tired accusation.   

So is the 'feminist agenda' tripe.  It is also a tired accusation.  Yet you continue to believe it's an acceptable one and use it often.  If that's o.k. for you to do, then it's o.k. for others to do with the use of the term patriarchy.    

Quote

Sarcasm is used when tired, silly accusations are made. I think you can tell the difference even with a poor medium as the written word on a website. 

Sarcasm is used for a lot of things, often as a passive/aggressive way to be snarky without having to own up to it.

Quote

You might want to go back and reread some of the posts. The bolded sentence is exaggeration, but it is hardly made from new cloth. Those seeds of thought are common on these types of threads.  What is odd is that you see the exaggeration of a man and completely excuse the same tired accusations of women. Why is that?  Why is it that women don't correct women when they made silly comments?

There are two reasons why I focused on your post.

1) You were embracing a double standard by attempting to call out behavior in others as unacceptable while doing that exact same behavior yourself.  You want to be upset with someone for accusations while you yourself are making accusations.  You want to complain about how unfairly men are treated in these threads while you yourself treat the women the exact same way.   I'm not sure if you are o.k. with the double standard or if you just aren't that self aware on this one issue, but I believe it's good to challenge double standards when they pop up.

2) You have a reputation for responding like this in these kinds of threads so I read your post to see if it was going to be more of the same.  I haven't read everyone's posts on this thread, so I probably miss things that I might otherwise reply to.

 

[juliann]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Why do women buy shoes with 6 inch heels?

Why do men tie things around their neck? Why do they wear suit jackets over shirts in the summer? 

[bluebell]

5 hours ago, rchorse said:

Of course not. That was a caricature of how too many in the church view men, not how I see men.

I am a man, and I view men and women as of equal worth. What I am criticizing is the all-too-common sentiment expressed in the church that men cannot be as spiritual as women due to being men (which I have only heard from men, by the way). This is just an attempt by men to avoid responsibility.

Good thoughts.  I know a lot of women who are really uncomfortable with the idea that we are naturally more spiritual than men are and cringe when they hear it said or implied.  It's not the compliment that a lot of men seem to think it is.  

[bluebell]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Why do women buy shoes with 6 inch heels?

Because they want to.  

[Bernard Gui]

28 minutes ago, juliann said:

Actually, we do. It is what we have heard all our lives. We have decades of experience in knowing. You don't. 
 

 

Actually, you don’t..

Edited October 25, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[juliann]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

Actually, you don’t..

Mansplaining. Textbook. 

[longview]

25 minutes ago, juliann said:

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Why do women buy shoes with 6 inch heels?

Why do men tie things around their neck? Why do they wear suit jackets over shirts in the summer? 

Because women want to be sexy or appear to be feminine.   Because men want to be businesslike  or appear to be competent (sometimes to appear reverent).

Shame on you women for being such a tease.  

25 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Because they want to.  

Come on!  Tell us your innermost motivation.  To test your wow power?  

[Bernard Gui]

31 minutes ago, juliann said:

It continues to amaze me how you can be so out of touch on women's issues when you are so capable on so many other things. My only response to this is, are you kidding me? When does it sink in that your comments are insulting? And demeaning. And out of place. Men have so much trouble accepting that they are no longer the final word on matters that affect women. That means they are going to have to, gasp, listen to women! And accept what they say about what they experience and men don't. I think that is considered to be Christlike, actually, isn't that what Christ did?

Sorry to disappoint. We are in this together.  Perhaps you can help me understand where I have strayed here.

[Bernard Gui]

8 minutes ago, juliann said:

Mansplaining. Textbook. 

Nope. We can do better than that.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I just skipped to the end. 

Which means....

[pogi]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

I think the main problem is women are generally the only ones getting this message.  Therefore it becomes reasonable to assume since men aren't seen as responsible or accountable it must not be an inherent condition after all and therefore women shouldn't be held accountable either.

Thanks for trying to explain your perspective.  From my perspective, I think that there are many, many other perfectly good explanations (I have shared one potential already) as to why women get the message far more then men do (but we do, I promise).  Imagine asking any general authority if men are responsible and accountable for how they dress, just like women are...I think we all know intuitively that they would answer in the affirmative.  To conclude otherwise would be madness.  I don't think our leaders are mad (cuckoo).  I think they direct messages where they see the biggest problem.  It doesn't mean that men are off the hook or that none of them have a problem, it is simply that women have higher expectations and pressure from society to dress in sexually seductive and revealing ways, and therefore do more so then men. 

It is like por*ography and lust messages - Because men generally are the only ones getting this message, should we conclude that our leaders don't view women as responsible or accountable in this area?  Of course not.  Our leaders simply diret most of the attention to men, because that is where they see the problem the most, and not that women aren't also susceptible to issues there. 

The one thing I have noticed is that many women on this thread are very angry and feel that the church places all blame and accountability on the women, while letting men off the hook.  I disagree. They clearly place accountability and responsibility on the men for how they perceive women.  We probably get messages about lust and maintaining pure thoughts and avoiding unclean thoughts, words, and actions at least equally as much as women get messages about dress.  In the last 40 years of my life, there have probably been at least 2-3 messages about this in every single priesthood session, twice per year - not counting young men and elders quorum, church magazines, videos, etc. etc. etc.  The church clearly does NOT place all the blame on the women.    

Edited October 25, 2019 by pogi

[CA Steve]

If a woman bares her shoulder in the forest, and no man is there to see it, is she still doing something wrong?

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Not made up. https://www.aol.com/amp/2019/09/20/free-the-nipple-movement-women-legally-topless-fort-collins-colorado-oklahoma-utah/.  Real movement with court cases and everything. And they win their court cases.

I think you would sign on because you advocate for equality of sporting attire. So,  swimming comes to mind. A lot of people agree with you.

What you made up is that I would sign on.

Time will tell if that is good move.

I’m not advocating for anything. I am asking why the disparity. If you don’t care to converse, that’s fine.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[bluebell]

27 minutes ago, longview said:

Because women want to be sexy or appear to be feminine.   Because men want to be businesslike  or appear to be competent (sometimes to appear reverent).

Shame on you women for being such a tease.  

Come on!  Tell us your innermost motivation.  To test your wow power?  

I did tell you my inner most motivation.  I wear heels when I want to.  When I don't want to I wear flats.

[Bernard Gui]

9 minutes ago, pogi said:

Thanks for trying to explain your perspective.  From my perspective, I think that there are many, many other perfectly good explanations (I have shared one potential already) as to why women get the message far more then men do (but we do, I promise).  Imagine asking any general authority if men are responsible and accountable for how they dress, just like women are...I think we all know intuitively that they would answer in the affirmative.  To conclude otherwise would be madness.  I don't think our leaders are mad (cuckoo).  I think they direct messages where they see the biggest problem.  It doesn't mean that men are off the hook or that none of them have a problem, it is simply that women have higher expectations and pressure from society to dress in sexually seductive and revealing ways, and therefore do more so then men. 

It is like por*ography and lust messages - Because men generally are the only ones getting this message, should we conclude that our leaders don't view women as responsible or accountable in this area?  Of course not.  Our leaders simply diret most of the attention to men, because that is where they see the problem the most, and not that women aren't also susceptible to issues there. 

The one thing I have noticed is that many women on this thread are very angry and feel that the church places all blame and accountability on the women, while letting men off the hook.  I disagree. They clearly place accountability and responsibility on the men for how they perceive women.  We probably get messages about lust and maintaining pure thoughts and avoiding unclean thoughts, words, and actions far more than women get messages about dress.  In the last 40 years of my life, there have probably been at least 2-3 messages about this in every single priesthood session, twice per year - not counting young men and elders quorum, church magazines, videos, etc. etc. etc.  The church clearly does NOT place all the blame on the women.    

We have a common enemy who does not have our (collective use) best interests at heart, especially when it comes to matters like this. It would be good for us to find common ground here so we and our children can face him in solidarity.